SO, THIS SESSION THIS MORNING IS
STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
AND, YOU KNOW, I LIKE THIS
TOPIC. I LIKE THE APPROACH OF
STUDYING CONSCIOUSNESS AS A
STATE AND HAVING HANDLES ON WAYS
TO PERTURB THAT STATE AND ASK
QUESTIONS ABOUT MEK ANNISTICALLY
HOW IT WORKS.
YOU WILL HEAR ABOUT ANESTHESIA
AND SLEEP STATES AS HANDLES OF
PERHAPS PERTURBATIONS FOR STATES
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND USE THAT TO
MEKNISTICALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT IS
GOING ON AND THE FIRST SPEAKER
OF THE MORNING IS DR. EMMORY
BROWN WHO IS THE EDWARD HOOD --
AT MIT ANDORY
BROWN WHO IS THE EDWARD HOOD --
AT MIT
TERS AND RECIPIENT OF NIH
DIRECTOR'S PIONEER AWARD AND
GUBER PRICE FOR NEUROSCIENCE.
EMORY, WELCOME.
GREAT. JIM, THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR THE INVITATION AND THANKS
FOR INVITING ME TO TAKE PART IN
THE CONFERENCE.
IT IS GREAT TO HANG OUT WITH YOU
GUY
GUYS.
I SWEAR IT WORKED BEFORE.
>> JUST TO SAVE TIME I WILL TALK
ABOUT UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND HOW
ANTHETICS PRODUCE STATES OF
UNCONSCIOUSNESS. I WILL -- I'M
GOING TO DO THAT BY GOING
THROUGH DIFFERENT DRUGS THAT WE
USE AND SHOW YOU A BIT OF THE
DYNAMICS.
LOCAL FIELD POTENTIAL AND SOME
EEG WORK IN HUMANS AND
NON-PRIMATES.
I CAN PROBABLY DO MY WHOLE TALK
ABOUT MY SLIDES.
SO, HERE WE GO. JUST A RESET.
GREAT. THANK YOU. THIS
ADVANCES IT?
GREAT. THANK YOU.
-- MY FUNDING SUPPORT GENEROUS
SUPPORT OVER THE YEARS FROM NIH
AND DEPARTMENTS OF ANESTHESIA
AND MIT AND PERSONAL INTERESTS I
HAVE IN SOME OF THIS RESEARCH
AND COLLEAGUES GOOD FORTUNE TO
WORK WITH.
INTERDISCIPLINARY TEAM IMAGINE
MET TICK AND EARL IS A --
MATHEMATICIANS LIKE -- AND LAURA
LOUIS ONE OF THE FORMER GRADUATE
STUDENTS NOW ON FACULTY AT MIT
AND JAKE WHO IS A PHD STUDENT
AND OUTLINE I WILL FOLLOW. I
WILL TALK ABOUT FOUR DIFFERENT
DRUGS IN A LITTLE DETAIL.
I WILL TALK ABOUT OTHER
SLOW-DELTA OSCILLATIONS AND MAIN
THEME IS STRAIGHTFORWARD AND
ANTHETICS PRODUCE OSCILLATIONS
AND DIFFERENT MECHANISMS AND
BRAIN IS TURNED OFF
DIFFERENTIALLY DEPENDING UPON
HOW OSCILLATIONS ARE PRODUCED.
ALL RIGHT?
WHY DON'T I GET STARTED?
WHAT IS GENERAL ANESTHESIA?
THIS IS IMPORTANT TO STATE DRUG
INDUCIBLE STATE CONSISTING OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND AMANOTHERIA
AND PHYSIOLOGICAL STABILITY AND
STARTED ANTINOCICEPTION.
IF YOU ARE UNCONSCIOUS IT IS
ANTINOCICEPTION.
WORKING WITH GETTING WORDS MORE
PRECISE EFFECTS MANAGING
PATIENTS AND HOW SCIENCE IS
DOING AND ANESTHESIA WORKS IS
MYSTERY AND MULTIPLE MECHANISMS
TALKING ABOUT PRIMARILY HOW IT
WORKS AND GENERATING
OSCILLATIONS THAT EFFECT HOW THE
BRAIN COMMUNICATES IS THE MAIN
THING AND EXPERIMENTS DONE IN
1935 AND BELL JUNE
NEUROPHYSIOLOGY FIRST EXPERIMENT
OUT OF CATS AND TRANSECTED
SPINAL CORD FROM BRAINSTEM AND
BRAIN AND EEG AND GOT PATTERNS
LIKE THIS AND CALLED IT
ENCEPHALE IET SOLE ISOLÉ -- WHAE
SAW WAS SLOW OSCILLATIONS AND
THIS GAVE US SOME IDEA THAT AREA
BETWEEN A AND B HAD SOMETHING TO
DO WITH AROUSAL. SO, NOW WE
KNOW THAT AROUSAL CENTERS ARE
SITTING THERE. WE CAN
APPRECIATE THAT.
SO, THE THING THAT I WANT TO --
POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS ALL
ANTHETICS HAVE TARGETS IN THESE
AREAS AND NOT SURPRISINGLY
PRODUCE THINGS THAT LOOK LIKE
THE ISOLE AND STATE WHAT THEY
ARE HITTING AND HOW MUCH THE
BRAIN IS TURNED OFF VARIES.
RIGHT?
THIS IS A SCHEMATIC I PUT
TOGETHER AND NORMALLY WILL SHARE
THE VIDEO. IN INTEREST OF TIME
I WILL GO THROUGH IT.
POINTER IS WHAT, EXACTLY?
HERE? I HAVE IT, GREAT. COUPLE
REALLY QUICK POINTS HERE IF YOU
ARE AWARE THIS IS 5 MICRO VOLTS
AWAKE AND INCREASED DOSES OF
PROEP POE FALL DEVELOP
OSCILLATIONS AND SLOW
OSCILLATIONS WITH OTHER
OSCILLATIONS AND IT THIS
OSCILLATION THAT I'M SHOWING YOU
HERE AND WITH C HERE AND HAVE
SOMEONE SUFFICIENTLY SEDATED
LIKE A COLONOSCOPY I WOULD DO
THAT TO SEE AND BETA
OSCILLATIONS AND PERSON IS
SEDATED AND WOULD RESPOND TO YOU
AND WHAT HAVE YOU AND WOULDN'T
BE COMPLETELY UNCONSCIOUS AND
CROSSING THIS LINE BETWEEN C AND
D HERE AND ON TO E, F AND G AND
PERSON IS UNCONSCIOUS AND SLOW
DELTA OWE S LAITIONS AND FAST
OWE S LAITION AND THAT YOU SEE
RIDING ON TOP.
SO, WHAT I WILL DO IS LOOK FOR
THE PARTS.
EXCUSE ME. PARTS IN THE BRAIN
STEM THAT COULD BE CONTRIBUTING
TO THIS AND WON'T BE ONLY
SOURCES AND MECHANISMS SLOW
OSCILLATIONS THAT ARE PRODUCED
WITH PRO POE PAL AND IMPORTANT
ONE TO UNDERSTAND AND ONCE YOU
BECOME PROFOUNDLY UNCONSCIOUS
YOU HAVE BURST SUPPRESSION THAT
IS NEUROLOGICAL AND METABOLIC AS
WELL BETWEEN BURST ISOLEK TICK
STATE AND THIS IS A WOMAN I TOOK
CARE OF IN THE OPERATING ROOM A
FEW YEARS BACK. I STARTED PRO
POE FOL HERE.
I SEE ALPHA OSCILLATIONS AT 10
HERTZ THAT IS CLASSIC SITUATION
OF PRO POE FOLPROPOFOL HERE.
I SEE ALPHA OSCILLATIONS AT 10
HERTZ THAT IS CLASSIC SITUATION
OF PROPOFOL.
OF ALL THINGS EEG IS USED FOR,
THIS IS -- THIS IS ONE OF THE
STRONGEST SIGNALS AND IF I
SHOWED YOU THE VIDEO YOU WOULD
SEE WHY. SOON AS DRUG IS TAKEN
OVER THERE IS NO MOTION
ARTIFACTS BASICALLY AND SIGNALS
AND STUDYING WHAT IS GOING ON
AND GETTING DATA FROM THE
OPERATING ROOM. THIS IS A FLAMO
CORTICAL OSCILLATION AND WON'T
COMMENT THAT MUCH ON THAT AND
GOING BACK TO SLOW DELTA
OSCILLATIONS AND RUN INFUSION
AND JUST TO BE CLEAR IF I GO
BACK HERE.
WHAT I'M SHOWING YOU IS THIS
PATTERN HERE. I'M SHOWING YOU D
ESSENTIALLY AND YOU CAN SEE SLOW
OSCILLATION AND 10 HERTZ
OSCILLATION ESSENTIALLY.
SO, IF I WERE TO DRAW A PICTURE,
SORRY.
THERE WE GO. IF I WERE TO DRAW
A PICTURE WHERE THE POSSIBLE
TARGETS ARE IT IS A DRUG THAT
ENHANCES DRUG MODULATOR AND WE
ARE GABBO NURJIC GABA EARTHERGIT
IS LIKE MY WRIST HERE THAT IS
PREOPTIC AREA OF THE
HYPOTHALAMUS AND FINGERS ARE
GABAERGIC THAT GOES TO AROUSAL
CENTERS ADMINISTERING PROPOFOL
PASSING THROUGH THE BASAL ARTERY
HERE AND GOING INTO THE PONS AND
PARTS OF THE MID BRAIN AND
RECEPTORS AND DECREASES INPUTS
GOING FROM CORTEX UP TO THE
THALAMUS AND IT IS HITTINGIN
HIBTORY COMPONENTS AS WELL AND
CORTEX AND HITTING THE TRN AND
ALONG WITH THE PRINCIPLE, THERE
IS A TARGET IN THE BRAIN STEM
CONTRIBUTING TO SLOW
OSCILLATIONS.
ALL RIGHT?
SO, THESE ARE SOME OF THE BEST
HUMAN DATA WE HAVE THAT IS A
WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE HUMAN
BRAIN AND LIKE MANY
INSTITUTIONS, YOU HAVE PEOPLE
THAT COME FROM EPILEPSY SURGERY
WITH ELECTRODES IMPLANTED
STAYING IN THE HOSPITAL FOR
SEVERAL DAYS AND OFF MEDICATIONS
AFTER THEY SEIZED ENOUGH.
THEY COME BACK HAVE ELECTRODES
REMOVED AND THEY THEN COME BACK
AND HAVE RESECTION. THAT SECOND
TIME COMING BACK TO THE
OPERATING ROOM YOU HAVE A
NATURAL EXPERIMENT AND YOU HAVE
HUMANS THAT HAVE ELECTRODES IN
THEIR BRAIN. IF YOU JUST -- YOU
WILL GIVE THEM ANESTHESIA AND
PROPOFOL AND RECORD AND SEE WHAT
NEURONS ARE DOING AND WHAT IS
THE MAIN PART OF THIS COMPONENT
OF LAURO THESIS AND NEURON
SPIKING AND RED ELECTRODE HERE
AND FIELD POTENTIALS AND PERSON
WHEN CONSCIOUS PRIOR TO
RECEIVING PROPOFOL. LOOK WHAT
HAPPENS WHEN HE BECOMES
UNCONSCIOUS. OPPOSED TO SPIKING
WHEREVER NEURONS WANT TO, THIS
NEURON IS SPIKING NOW. IT
SPIKES NOW. IT SPIKES NOW. ALL
RIGHT?
YOU SEE THE SLOW OSCILLATION
THAT IS TIGHTLY COUPLED TO AND
PERHAPS MODULATING TO SOME
EXTENT HOW NEURONS WILL SPIKE
AND IMAGINE HOW THIS IS
HAPPENING NOT ONLY HERE AND AT
OTHER LOCATIONS AND PROBABLY OUT
THE CORTEX IT WILL BE VERY
DIFFICULT TO BE CONSCIOUS. ALL
RIGHT?
THIS IS A LOOK AT
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND DON'T KNOW
WHAT SPIKE RATE HAS TO DROP TO,
TO BECOME UNCONSCIOUS BUT
PRACTICAL THING ABOUT THIS AND
EMPHASIZING THE PRACTICAL PART
OF THIS IS THAT YOU CAN SEE SLOW
OSCILLATIONS ON THE MONITOR IN
THE OPERATINGOR AND KNOW SOMEONE
IS UNCONSCIOUS AND NO REASON FOR
PEOPLE TO HAVE AWARENESS ON
ANESTHESIA AND BE OVERDOSED AND
DOING THIS THUS FAR AND TAKING
IT FURTHER HERE AND WE HAVE
REDONE SAME EXPERIMENTS WITH
NON-HUMAN PRIMATES AND ANDREW
MILLER A POST DOC AND JAKE IS A
PHD STUDENT. FOUR AREAS -- WE
HAVE THIS LINE OF RECORDING
SITES GOING BACK FROM FRONT TO
BACK AND FIELD POTENTIALS ARE
HERE AND THIS IS SPIKING
ACTIVITY AND QUANTIFYING 10 TO
12 SPIKES PER SECOND. ALL
RIGHT?
AND BASICALLY FIELD POTENTIALS
AND SAME THING ADMINISTER PROPOE
FOLS AND FUSION AND ANIMAL
BECOMES CONSCIOUS AND SLOW
OSCILLATIONS AND LOOK WHAT YOU
SEE NOW TRACING THIS BACK ACROSS
NOT JUST ONE REGION OF THE
CORTEX BUT ACROSS MORE THAN ONE
REGION AND SEE THAT THE SPIKE
RATE IS DROPPED AND
QUANTIFICATIONS ARE IMPORTANT
FROM 10 TO 12 SPIKES PER SECOND
DOWN TO ONE HALF TO ONE SPIKE
PER SECOND AND 99.5% DROP IN
SPIKE RATE THERE IS PROFOUND
UPDATES AND PROFOUND SPIKING
LIKE YOU SEE HERE.
AGAIN, I CAN'T TELL YOU WHAT THE
SPIKE RATE HAS TO DROP TO FOR
THE PERSON OR MONKEY TO BE
UNCONSCIOUS AND SUBMIT TO YOU
THIS ANIMAL IS PROFOUNDLY
UNCONSCIOUS GOING ACROSS THE
ENTIRE CORTEX AND PROCESSING 1
TO 2 SPIKES PER SECOND AND
LOOKING AT THIS NOW AND NOT ONLY
LOOKING AT THIS ACROSS THE
CORTEX IN THIS WAY BUT ALSO
BILATERALLY AND AT SAME TIME
LOOKING DEEP WITHIN THE CORTEX
TO SEE WHAT IS GOING ON.
QUESTION?
QUESTION? -- FOCUSING ON THIS
PATTERN HERE IS ONE YOU SEE WHEN
SOMEONE RECEIVES KETAMINE FOR
LIKE JUST SEDATION.
THIS IS THE PATTERN THAT YOU SEE
IF YOU GIVE KETAMINE TO PATIENTS
COMING TO TREATMENT FOR
DEPRESSION. LOW DOSE KETAMINE
LOW DOSE KETAMINE MAKES EEG
SPEED UP NOT SLOW DOWN. WHEN
YOU GIVE A LARGE ENOUGH DOSE SO
SOMEONE BECOMES UNCONSCIOUS YOU
GET A REALLY COOL PATTERN WHERE
I WILL FIND A MOUSE AGAIN AND
YOU GO FAST AND SLOW AND FAST
AND SLOW AND EVERY 4 TO 10
SECONDS YOU SPEED UP AND SLOW
DOWN. SPEED UP AND SLOW DOWN.
RIGHT?
YOU CAN SEE IT WELL HERE ON THE
SPECTROGRAM. THIS IS ACTUAL
HUMAN DATA TAKEN FROM THE
OPERATING ROOM AND SOMEONE IS
RECEIVING JUST BASICALLY
KETAMINE.
RIGHT?
APPLYING THIS PRINCIPLE HAS TO
BE AREA IN THE BRAIN STEM
CONTRIBUTING TO THIS AND AREA
THAT IS PROJECTIONS AND GLUTE
AMA TERJIC PROJECTIONS THAT ARE
COMING IN FROM THE PARABRICKULAR
AREA AND RETICULAR FORMATION AND
BASO GANG LEO THALAMUS IT IS NOT
THAT SIMPLE GETTING US IN THE
BALLPARK AND MORE GOING ON AND
FIRST THING GOING BACK TO
INTERNEURON. ONE THING THAT
HAPPENS WITH INTERNEURON IS THAT
AT LOW DOSES PROPOE FOL OR
KETAMINE TAKES OUT THE INTRO
NEURONS BINDING GABA RECEPTOR
AND GLUTE AMA TURJIC RECEPTORS
ON INHIBITORY NEURONS. THEY ARE
WORKING ALL THE TIME AND FOR
KETAMINE TO BE EFFECTIVE IT HAS
TO ACTUALLY GET INTO THE CHANNEL
AND PARIETAL NEURONS ARE LIKE
THIS AND PROBABILISTICALLY AT
LOW DOSE IF YOU DO THAT YOU WILL
TAKE OUT THE INTERNEURONS FIRST
AND GIVING HIGHER AND HIGHER
DOSES YOU GET THE -- YOU
ACTUALLY GET PARAMETAL NEURONS
NOT JUST SIMPLE TURNING OFF BUT
THERE IS A DYNAMIC BEING SET UP
BETWEEN VARIOUS BRAIN REGIONS
WORKING NOW WITH EXPERIMENTS AND
WITH MATHEMATICAL MODELING AND I
WILL SHOW YOU A LITTLE DATA
ANALYSIS ON THIS. THIS IS A
NON-HUMAN PRIMATE. YOU KNOW,
KETAMINE INFUSION AND YOU CAN
SEE THE STATE AND SEE THE UP
SORT OF THE FAST OSCILLATION AND
SLOW OSCILLATION AND GOING BACK
AND FORTH. WHAT INDIE DID IS
USED HIDDEN MARK-OFF MODEL TO
LOOK AT THIS. SYSTEM WASN'T
GOING JUST FAST AND SLOW, FAST
AND SLOW, IT WAS GOING LET'S SAY
SLOW. A LITTLE FASTER. A
LITTLE FASTER, FAST. SLOW A
LITTLE FASTER AND SO FORTH AND
SEE THAT HERE 4 STATE HIDDEN
MARK OFF MODEL DESCRIBING
DYNAMICS AND MONKEY NOW SHOWING
THE SAME PATTERN AND IS GAMMA
OSCILLATIONS AND SEE THEM GOING
THROUGH VARIOUS STATES.
WHAT IS HAPPENING ACROSS THE
BRAIN HERE?
SO, THIS IS THE 4 REGIONS LIKE
WE LOOKED AT BEFORE.
WHAT WE FOUND OUT IS ABOUT
IFFIST% OF THE TIME ALL REGIONS
ARE IN SYNC AND 70% OF TIME
POSTERIOR REGIONS ARE IN SYNC
HERE AND 80% OF THE TIME TWO
FRONTAL REGIONS ARE IN SYNC.
ALL RIGHT?
OTHER INTERESTING THING ABOUT
THIS IS WITH PROPOFOL I TOLD YOU
SPIKE RATES DROP 99% AND HERE
SPIKE RATES ARE ON AVERAGE SAME
AS WHEN ANIMAL IS AWAKE AND WHAT
HAPPENS IS DURING FAST PERIODS
THEY SPEED UP A LITTLE BIT AND
SLOW PERIOD DROP DRAMATICALLY
AND SPEED UP A LITTLE BIT AND
DROP DRAMATICALLY AND I'M NOT
PRESENTING DATA ON THAT AND WHAT
NEURONS ARE DOING AND YOU CAN
IMAGINE THAT THIS DYNAMIC MAKES
IT VERY DIFFICULT TO BE
CONSCIOUS.
I JUST PUT THIS IN THERE BECAUSE
I PUT IT IN THERE.
ALL RIGHT?
SO, EZRA MARCUS A WRITER FOR NEW
YORK TIMES WROTE ME A COUPLE
YEARS AGO AND PEOPLE SNIFFING
NITE TRIX OXIDE AND SIMILAR TO
GETTING HIGH. THIS IS DUMB.
DON'T DO THIS. ALL RIGHT?
LOOKING AT THIS GUY HERE WITH
MASK OVER HIS FACE PEDIATRIC
ANESTHESIOLOGIST WILL TELL YOU
WE DO THIS WITH KIDS AND WITH
THEM YOU CAN'T PUT IV IN VERY
OFTEN AND HAVE THEM TAKE A
SINGLE BREATH OF NITRIC OXIDE
WITH C04 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT
AND THEY WILL GO OUT JUST LIKE
THAT AND THIS IS LOOKING LIKE
SOMEONE IS TRYING TO SEL
SELF-ANESTHETIZE THEMSELVES THAT
IS REALLY DANGEROUS AND NOBODY
IS THERE TO REVIVE YOU. EZRA
WROTE ME BECAUSE WE WENT BACK
AND LOOKED AT ALL DATA WE
COLLECTED OVER SEVERAL YEARS ON
AND FOUND SOME VERY INTERESTING
DYNAMICS IN NITRIC OXIDE AND
WHAT I WANT TO SHOW YOU HERE.
THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON NITRIC
OXIDE. ALL RIGHT? HERE, THIS
LINE TO THIS LINE IS ONE SECOND
FROM HERE TO HERE IS ONE SECOND
AND STANDARD MONTAGE IN ORS 2 ON
LEFT AND 2 ON RIGHT AND GROUND
REFERENCE IN MIDDLE AND BRAIN ON
NITRIC OXIDE GENERATES ALMOST
PERFECT SIGN WAVES AND WHY THIS
IS DUMB TO DO. YOU SHOULD NOT
DO THIS.
ALL RIGHT?
ALL RIGHT.
WHEN I FIRST SAW THIS, IT WAS
LITERALLY INCREDIBLE AND WE WENT
BACK OVER A SERIES OF DATA 19
CASES WE COLLECTED OVER A PERIOD
OF A YEAR AND A HALF OR SO AND
SAW JUST THIS PATTERN AND WILL
SHOW YOU WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND
COMMONLY WORKS BECAUSE WE TURN
NITRIC OXIDE ON TOWARDS END OF
THE CASE.
AND AS WE COME OFF THE OTHER
ANTHETICS IT IS EASIER TO WAKE
UP NITRIC OXIDE FROM SAY
ISOFLOURINE PATTERN THAT STARTS
TO BREAK DOWN BREAK DOWN AND
WHERE IT TAKES EFFECT AND NITRIC
OXIDE IS BUILDING UP HERE
CONSTANT RATE 60% AND SLOW
OSCILLATION AND WHAT IS REALLY
COOL ABOUT THIS IS IT DOESN'T
CONTINUE AND AT SOME POINT
BREAKS UP ON ITS OWN BECOMING A
FASTER OSCILLATION AND HAVE NO
IDEA WHY IT HAPPENS AND WON'T
FIGURE IT OUT STUDYING NITRIC
OXIDE NOT A FRIEND TO THE
ENVIRONMENT AND IT IS COOL AND
PRINCIPLE AND NDNA ANTAGONIST
AND IN AREAS WHERE KETAMINE IS
ACTING AND A COMPLETELY
DIFFERENT DYNAMIC FROM KETAMINE.
THEN ONE FINAL POINT HERE, YOU
KNOW, WE ARE ASKED WHICH OF YOUR
DRUGS IN ANY WAY MIMICS STATES
LIKE SLEEP FOR EXAMPLE AND ONES
THAT COME CLOSE TO MIMICKING
STATES LIKE SLEEP BECAUSE AT LOW
DOSAGE YOU WILL SEE SPINDLE
ACTIVITY AND SLOW OSCILLATION
WILL LOOK LIKE NON-REM STAGE 2
SLEEP AND HIGHER DOSES LOOKS
LIKE SLOW WAVE SLEEP AND
MECHANISTICALLY IS SIMILAR TO --
I MEAN IN LAST FEW YEARS NUMBER
OF RESEARCHERS TAUGHT US WORLD
IS NOT AS SIMPLE AS I WILL MAKE
IT NOW AND NUMBER OF AREAS ARE
PROBABLY INVOLVED IF HAD HELPING
THE BRAIN TURN OWE OF TO
INITIATE SLEEP AND ONE IS
PREOPTIC AREA OF THE
HYPOTHALAMUS THAT STAYS
DISINHIBITED.
SO, BY BLOCKING THE -- WHAT
COMES OUT OF THE LOCUST CERTIFY
YOU'LLEOUS AND ANEARTHIC ENERGY
THERE, YOU CAN ACTUALLY TURN ON
THE PREOPTIC AREA AND GENERATE
PATTERNS LIKE WE ARE SHOWING YOU
HERE AND THREE LITTLE FACTOIDS
TO END UP WITH. SLOW
OSCILLATIONS OCCUR IN VERY YOUNG
BRAINS AND KIDS UNDER THREE
YEARS OF AGE GIVING GAB YAERGIC
STAGE AND -- PROBABLY REPRESENTS
BRAIN DEVELOPMENT. OLDER
PATIENT, I COUNT MYSELF AMONG
THAT GROUP TOO NOW. YOU WILL
PROBABLY SEE SLOW OSCILLATIONS
AND SEE NO ALPHA OSCILLATIONS
WHATSOEVER AND IS PROBABLY BRAIN
GETTING OLDER.
ONE IS DEVELOPMENT AND OTHER IS
DEGENERATION AND OVERWHELMING
SEPSIS WE SAW A LOT DURING COVID
THEY HAVE SLOW OSCILLATIONS.
GENTLEMAN I TOOK CARE OF DRUG
ADDICT ANAESTHETIZING INFECTION
CAME TO OPERATING ROOM EVERY 3
TO 4 DAYS TO HAVE IT CLEANED UP
AND PUTTING EEG ON IT HE IS 34
AND EXPECTED TO SEE SLOW
OSCILLATION IN ACETYLLE FLUORINE
AND SAW SLOW OSCILLATIONS
TURNING OFF BRAIN STEM AROUSAL
CENTERS AND THEY ARE ACTING LIKE
BREMER'S -- PATIENTS AND LONG
INFECTION CLEARS UP AND
INITIALLY HAVE SLOW OSCILLATIONS
CLEARING UP AND ALPHA
OSCILLATIONS COME BACK
SUGGESTING COULD BE INFLAMMATORY
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND THIS IS WHAT
I HAVE TOLD YOU HERE.
ALL ANTHETICS WITH SLOW DELTA
OSCILLATIONS ARE PROBABLY
MECHANISMS AND THROUGH
PRINCIPLES AND DIRECT ACTION IN
THE THALAMUS AND CORTEX.
EACH OF THE ANTHETICS HAS
DIFFERENT EEG SIGNATURE CHANGING
DRAMATICALLY WITH DOSE AND
PATIENT AGE AND [INDISCERNIBLE]
I WILL STOP THERE.
>> MORNING. THANK YOU SO MUCH
FOR THIS. WE ARE WORKING IN A
SIMILAR WAY. WE ARE RECORDING
FROM PREFRONTAL CORTEX AND
PARIETAL CORTEX UNDER ANESTHESIA
AND USE A HIDDEN MARK OF MODEL
WITH TWO STATES AND WONDERING
AND DATA IS EASIER TO
RATIONALIZE -- OR TOO EXCITATORY
POPULATIONS WITH ONE INHIBITORY
POPULATION LEADING UP TO THIS
STATE. THE FULL STATES YOU USE,
WHAT COULD BE THE
CRYTOARCHITECTURAL NODES TO
GENERATE THIS OR CIRCUITS
CENTRAL PATTERN GENERATOR
CIRCUIT THAT WOULD HAVE FOUR
DIFFERENT STATES?
>> WHAT HAPPENS YOU ARE RIGHT
THERE IS PRIMARY POPULATION OF
FAST AND SLOW GUYS AND WHAT
HAPPENS IS THEY DON'T JUST GO ON
AND OFF BUT THEY MUTE OR START
INHIBITING A LITTLE MORE AND
DISINHIBITING A LITTLE LESS AND
A LITTLE LESS AND WHAT IS
OCCURRING AND TWO PRIMARY GROUPS
THAT COME ABOUT IS DIFFERENCE IN
EFFECT OF KETAMINE ON INHIBITORY
INTERNEURONS COMPARED TO
PARAMETERS IS WHAT HAPPENS AND
YOU CAN DO IT WITH TWO
POPULATIONS --
>> YOU HAVE TO HAVE ACTIONS
COMING FROM THE BRAIN STEM.
SO, THEY ARE PROBABLY GIVING YOU
LARGE INHIBITION; RIGHT?
AFTER THEY HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN
INHIBITED FOR AIN HIBTORY
NEURONS IN CORTEX CAN COME BACK
ON AND POINT IS IT IS NOT JUST
THIS, THIS, AND THIS. IT IS
ACTUALLY -- THAT IS ALL.
>> THANK YOU.
>> HI. I'M VERY INTERESTING
DATA AND ESPECIALLY ONE WITH
MILLER ON THE MONKEY AND CURIOUS
ABOUT FILING PATTERNS YOU ARE
GETTING THERE AND DID YOU
ANALYZE DIVERSITY OF PATTERNS
YOU COULD GET?
PERHAPS IF YOU HAVE WAKING STATE
DATA ON SAME CELLS I SUPPOSE YOU
DO ON THOSE AND WOULD YOU
RECOGNIZE SOME PATTERNS THAT ARE
CODING IN WAKEFUL STATE OR IS IT
JUST A NONCODING HIGHLY
SYNCHRONIZED PATTERN.
>> GREAT QUESTION. IN OTHER
WORDS UPSTATE WHEN ANIMAL IS
AWAKE AND UNCONSCIOUS IS THERE
STILL STUFF GOING ON AND FIGURED
OUT NOW GOING TO IT WITH MORE
DETAIL AND TURNS OUT THERE
PROBABLY ISN'T AND THIS IS A
PROFOUND LEVEL OF SHUTDOWN.
>> UH-HUH.
>> I MEAN, YOU HAVE SPIKE RATES
THAT ARE REASONABLE DURING UP
STATES AND DURING DOWN STATES
PRETTY MUCH NOTHING IS GOING ON
ESSENTIALLY.
>> RIGHT.
>> NOT MUCH CODING IS GOING ON
THERE.
>> UP STATES I'M INTERESTED IN.
ARE THEY DIVERSE ENOUGH AND
PREDICT THEY ARE NOT REALLY
CODING.
>> RIGHT. I DON'T THINK THEY
ARE. THIS IS 10 TO 12 SPIKES
PER SECOND AND ONE-TO-ONE.5
SPIKES PER SECOND. DON'T THINK
HE IS CODING.
>> LOOKING AT IT LOOKS LIKE AT
LEAST TWO STATES THERE.
>> DEFINITELY COUPLE STATES AND
WHY I REMEMBER AND SHOWING YOU
THE SPIKES. SPIKE RATE IS VERY
LO HE AND THAT IS THE KEY POINT.
>> YEAH. SO SH --
>> REPORTS OF INTRAOPERATIVES
AWARENESS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF BOTH
CONSCIOUS AND UNCONSCIOUS MEMORY
RECALLING STIMULI PRESENTED
DURING GENERAL ANESTHESIA?
>> VERY GOOD QUESTION. ONE
REASON THAT WE ARE PARANOID
ABOUT -- ONE THING WE ARE
PARANOID ABOUT IS HAVING PEOPLE
NO THE HAVE AWARENESS AND THE
DIFFICULTY IS THAT IN THESE
CASES OF AWARENESS THEY ARE NOT
USING THE EEG. IF SOMEONE CAME
TO ME AND SAID LAST TIME I HAD
ANESTHESIA I HAD AWARENESS,
OKAY. IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN. I
WOULD ANESTHETIZE THEM AND TAKE
THEM DOWN TO A STATE THAT LOOKED
LIKE THAT; RIGHT?
THAT WON'T BE AWARE AND WE ARE
APPROXIMATELY RIGHT ABOUT SLOW
OSCILLATIONS AND HAVEN'T TOLD
YOU ABOUT ALPHA OSCILLATIONS AND
BRAIN TURNED OFF AND SOMEONE
WILL BE PROFOUNDLY UNCONSCIOUS
AND IS PROBLEM THEY DON'T USE
THE EEG. 20% OF
ANESTHESIOLOGISTS USE EEG TO
MONITOR THEIR PATIENTS.
IT IS A SOLVABLE PROBLEM.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, EMORY.
>> THANK YOU.
>> I WILL INTRODUCE THE SECOND
SPEAKER AND MAYBE WE CAN PULL
GEORGE UP VIRTUALLY. GEORGE IS
AN ANESTHESIOLOGIST AND NIH
FUNDED NEUROSCIENTIST AT
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND
SERVES AT PROFESSOR AND CHAIR AT
DEPARTMENT OF ANESTHESIOLOGY AT
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN -- IN
2014 AND DIRECTED IT UNTIL 2020
AND FOUNDED MICHIGAN PSYCHIATRIC
CENTER IN 2022 THAT HE CURRENT
WILL I DIRECTED AND RESEARCH
SPANS MECHANISMS OF ANTHETIC
INDUCED UNCONSCIOUSNESS
INTRAOPERATIVE AWARENESS AND
SLEEP AND GENERAL ANESTHESIA AND
CORTEX AND CONSCIOUSNESS NEAR
DEATH EXPERIENCES TESTING
THEORIES OF CONSCIOUSNESS USING
ANTHETICS AND GEORGE, THE FLOOR
IS YOURS.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. ARE YOU
ABLE TO HEAR ME?
>> WE HEAR YOU CLEARLY.
>> WONDERFUL.
THANK YOU TO THE ORGANIZERS, DR.
HEY AND OTHERS FOR THIS
WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY TO
PARTICIPATE ALBEIT VIRTUALLY. I
WILL DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT
BEING FLANKED BY EMINENT DR.
BROWN AND DR. BANKS. I WILL
HAVE AN INTERLUDE OF SORTS
REFLECTING ON ANESTHESIA AND
CONSCIOUSNESS.
I HOPE TO CONVEY SOME OF MY
EXCITEMENT AS TO WHY GENERAL
ANTHETICS AND ANESTHETIZED
STATES ARE INDISPENSABLE TOOLS
TO STUDY CONSCIOUSNESS AND FIRST
WILL ARGUE CONCEPTUAL ORIGIN OF
ANTHEESHOLOGY IS ASH KRERNL AND
GENERAL ANESTHESIA MIGHT BE A
FUNDAMENTALLY BIOLOGICAL PROCESS
AND SHARING DATA THAT GENERAL
ANESTHESIA IS MECHANISTICALLY
DISTINCT FROM SLEEP AND ARE
DISTINCT STATES WITH SHARED
TRAITS AND SHOWING DATA
SUGGESTING THAT ANESTHETIZED
STATE IS DYNAMIC AND YOU HEARD
FROM DR. BROWN ALREADY ON THIS
AND FIN WILL I JUST SURVEYED
SEVERAL OF OUR STUDIES TO
SUGGEST GENERAL ANESTHESIA IS A
POWERFUL TOOL TO UNDERSTAND
CONSCIOUSNESS.
I WANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, OF
COURSE, THERE IS A LOT OF GREAT
WORK OUT THERE.
SO, LET'S START OFF WITH THE
HISTORICAL ORIGINS.
I THINK MOST OF US TALK ABOUT
THE HISTORY OF ANESTHESIA AND WE
THINK ABOUT THE BITTER PRIORITY
DISPUTE BETWEEN WILLIAM THOMAS
GREEN MORTON AND THE DENTIST.
AND THE PHYSICIAN CRAWFORD LONG.
MOST OF US WOULD AGREE THAT THE
FIRST PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION OF A
SURGERY UNDER GENERAL ANESTHESIA
HAPPENED OCTOBER 16TH, 1846 AND
IS FINCH BUILDING AT
MASSACHUSETTS GENERAL HOSPITAL
AND THAT IS THE SURGICAL
AMPHITHEATRE THAT IS NOW CALLED
THE ETHER DOME AND WOULD SUGGEST
THIS IS MERELY PHARMACOLOGICAL
BIRTH OF THE FIELD AND
INSTANTIATION AND CONCEPTUAL
ORIGINS ARE ANCIENT AND DATE TO
ANTIQUITY.
AND I'M SHOWING YOU VARIOUS
PICTURES OF PSYCHOPOMPS NOT
PSYCHOPATHS BUT PSYCHOPOMPS THAT
TRANSLATES FROM THE GREEK AS
CHAPERONES OF THE SOUL AND
ANCIENTS RECOGNIZE THAT STATE
TRANSITIONS WERE INHERENTLY
DANGEROUS AND YOU HAVE HERMES
FROM THE GREEK TRADITION AND
ANNU BOWS FROM ANCIENT EGYPT AND
FROM AZTEC MYTHOLOGIES AND OYA
FROM YOU ARE UB AN -- AND THESE
GODS OR GUYS FOCUS ON STATE
TRANSITIONS. IN PARTICULAR
STATE TRANSITION FROM BEING
ALIVE TO BEING DEAD AND HAD A
MORE GENERAL MEANING AND WOULD
SUGGEST THAT ANESTHESIOLOGISTS
ARE 21ST CENTURY PSYCHOPOMPS AND
CARL YOUNG REINVOKED THIS TERM
TO DESCRIBE PSYCHOANALYSIS.
TRANSFORMATION OF CONSCIOUS AND
UNCONSCIOUS PROCESSING AND THINK
THAT ANESTHESIOLOGISTS ARE
MODERN DAY PSYCHOPOMPS MODERN
DAY ANESTHESIOLOGY IS NOT JUST
THIS PICTURE THAT HANG BS IN
ETHER DOME BUT FROM.
>> YOU: [SPEAKING] FROENIOUS --
LAPPED OF THE LIVING BATTLEFIELD
OF THE TROJAN WAR TO HADES AND
HERMES IS FUNCTIONING PSYCHOPOMP
AND SAR PED ON IS SUSPENDED BY
TWIN BROTHERS HYPNOSE AND
THANATOS.
NOT A WOUNDED SOLDIER BUT
PATIENT WITH SURGICAL WOUNDS
BEING HELD IN SUSPENSION BY
GENERAL ANESTHESIA THAT IS A
KIND OF SYNTHESIS OF HUTNOS AND
THANATOS AND REVERSIBILITY AND
DEATH AND TIMELESSNESS AND
PROFOUND ABLIFON AND GETTING
BACK TO MEDICAL ORIGIN SOMETHING
I WANT TO POINT OUT DR. BROWN OR
BANKS CAN CORRECT ME IF I'M
WRONG AND AS FAR AS I KNOW THERE
HASN'T BEEN A SINGLE REPORT OF A
HUMAN BEING THAT COULD NOT BE
ANESTHETIZED AND THESE DRUGS
WORK 100% OF THE TIME. IN DAYS
OF OLD PEOPLE WOULD DIE ON
INDUCTION AND OPERATING ROOMS
WOULD EXPLODE THAT IS
INCONVENIENT FOR SURGERY AND WE
HAVE MOVED BEYOND THAT STAGE AND
THIS IS A REALLY REMARKABLE TOOL
THAT OBLATES CONSCIOUSNESS 100%
OF THE TIME AND DOESN'T JUST DO
SO IN HUMANS AND WOULD ARGUE
THAT ANESTHESIA IS ALMOST A
BIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON.
IT WORKS ACROSS ALL SPECIES THAT
HAVE BEEN TESTED.
NOT ONLY HUMAN AND NON-HUMAN
PRIMATES AND RODENTS THAT YOU
HAVE HEARD ABOUT BUT ALSO
DROSOPHILA NEMATODE CELIGANS AND
VENUS FLY TRAP STOPS TRAPPING
REVERSIBLY AND SINGLE-CELLED
ORGANISMS CAN BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO
THE EFFECTS OF GENERAL
ANESTHESIA AND A FEW YEARS AGO
COLLEAGUE AND FRIEND MAX FROM
UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA AND I
TRIED TO SYNTHESIZE THIS DATA
GENERAL BIOLOGY OF ANESTHESIA
AND IT CROSSES SPECIES AND WHAT
IS INTERESTING IS NUMBER OF
ANTHETIC ENDPOINTS IN TERMS OF
IMPAIRED RESPONSIVENESS AND
IMPAIRED MOBILITY ARE CONSERVED
ACROSS VARIOUS SPECIES.
THERE IS SOMETHING INTERESTING
TO POINT OUT WITH RESPECT TO
SINGLE CELL ORGANISMS THAT
PREDATES SLEEP OBVIOUSLY. YOU
HAVE A SINGLE CELL BEGINNING OF
DISASSOCIATING SHARED CIRCUIT
HYPOTHESIS RELATED TO ANTHETIC
MECHANISMS AND ANOTHER
INTERESTING QUESTION ARISES
WHICH IS WHY WOULD A SINGLE CELL
ORGANISM BE SUSCEPTIBLE TO AN
ANTHETIC? WAS THERE ANY KIND OF
EVOLUTIONARY ADVANTAGE? THIS IS
PURE SPECK LAITION AND IF YOU
IMAGINE PRY MORDIAL ATMOSPHERE
OF EARTH THERE WAS ADVANTAGE AND
TO BE ABLE TO DOWN REGULATE
CERTAIN POSITIONS OF GASEOUS
COMPOSITION AND IF YOU DON'T
BELIEVE THAT ANTHETIC GASES CAN
BE ISSUED FORTH FROM THE EARTH
REMINDING YOU OF ORACLE OF
DELPHI POSITIONING HERSELF IN
TRIPOD OF FAULTS AND TEMPLE OF
APOLLO AND GAS WOULD COME UP
SWEET SMELLING DESCRIBED BY
PLUTAR AND ENTER TRANS STATE AND
SOMETIMES THERE WOULD BE
CONVUNGS AND DELIVER PROPHECY
AND THEY EXAMINED FAULTS UNDER
THE TEMPLE AND FOUND THEY
PRODUCED ETHYLENE THAT IS SWEET
SMELLING AND STUDIED IN 1950S BY
ISABELLA HERB THAT DEMONSTRATED
SUBANTHETIC LEVELS COULD INDUCE
TRANSSTATES AND SOMETIMES
SEIZURES.
NOW, I HAVE MENTIONED SLEEP.
ONE OF THE FIRST MAJOR
HYPOTHESES IN THE SYSTEMS
NEUROSCIENCE OF GENERAL
ANESTHESIA IS SHIFTING FROM
BIOMOLECULAR TARGETS TO NEURAL
SYSTEMS AND NETWORKS IS GENERAL
ANTHETICS HIJACKED SLEEP
MACHINERY IN ORDER TO INDUCE
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND WAS REALLY
COMPELLING CORRELATIVE EVIDENCE.
IT IS FOR THE FACT THAT
ANTHETICS ACTIVATE SLEEP
PROMOTING AREAS LIKE CONVENIENT
TRA LATERAL PREOPERABLE NUCLEUS
YOU HEARD FROM DR. BROWN AND --
INCLUDING ELEGANT STUDY BY DR.
KELTS THAT SHOWS PUNITIVE SLEEP
PROMOTING NEURONS ARE ACTIVATED
BY ISOFLOURINE AND NOBODY HAD
EVER REALLY TESTED THIS
CAUSALLY.
SO, WHAT WE DID IS
CHEMOGENETICALLY ACTIVATE
GABAERGIC NEURONS IN PREOPTIC
AREA AND SHOWED THAT THOSE
ACTIVATIONS COULD MODULATE
SLEEP/WAKE ARCHITECTURE AND THEY
DIDN'T APPEAR TO HAVE AN EFFECT
ON ANTHETIC STATE TRANSITIONS.
AS YOU CAN SEE HERE IN THE TIME
TO LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
AND THE TIME TO RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AT 1.5%
ISOFLOURINE THAT IS A COMMONLY
USED INHALED ANTHETIC. GLUTE
AMA TURJIC NEURONS FOUND IN
PREOPTIC NUCLEUS GO ON TO STUDY
IN MORE DETAIL CAUSE WAKEFULNESS
AND FRAGMENTED NON-REM SLEEP AND
DIDN'T APPEAR TO HAVE EFFECT ON
STATE TRANSITIONS WITH RESPECT
TO 1.5 ISOFLOURINE AND 1.2%
ISOFLOURINE AND MIGHT BE SOME
RELATIONSHIP AND CERTAINLY IS
SHARED PHENOTYPE AND SHARED
TRAITS AND DISTINCT STATES AND
DR. BROWN AND COLLEAGUES SHOWED
THIS AT NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL LEVEL
AND IS NO TRIVIAL RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN SLEEP AND ANESTHESIA
SUCH THAT ANTHETICS BIND TO A
SINGLE SLEEP PROMOTING NUCLEUS
TO INDUCE UNCONSCIOUSNESS.
I ALSO WANT TO NOTE THAT
ANESTHETIZED STATE IS DYNAMICS
AND NOT LIKE SLEEP IN TERMS
OFALITY ERNATIONS BETWEEN
NON-REM AND REM SLEEP AND AS YOU
HAVE SEEN FROM DR. BROWN AND WE
AND OTHERS HAVE SHOWN IN SEVERAL
STUDIES ANESTHETIZED STATE IS
NOT JUST A MONOLITH OR BRAIN
GETTING SHUT OFF AND PUBLISHED
SEVERAL ARTICLES IN ISSUE OF
ANESTHESIOLOGY IN HUMANS SHOWING
CONNECTIVITY PATTERNS
DISAPPEARING RIGHT AFTER
INDUCTION OF ANESTHESIA CAN
REAPPEAR DURING THE COURSE OF
THE ANTHETIC AND ONE STUDY WAS
IN SURGICAL PATIENTS WITH
WIRELESS WHOLE SCALP EEG AND ONE
MIGHT ARGUE SURGERY IS GOING ON
AND VARIOUS LEVELS OF STIMULI
AND WILL YOU HAVE DIFFERENT
CONNECTIVITY PATTERNS THAT
EMERGE AND PARALLEL STUDY WAS IN
HEALTHY VOLUNTEERS AT SUPER
THERAPEUTIC LEVELS OF
ISOFLOURINE ANESTHESIA FOR THREE
HOURS WITHOUT ANY EX-OWETH NOWS
STIMULUS AND SHOWED STRUCTURED
TRANSITIONS IN THEIR
CONNECTIVITY PATTERNS THAT THIS
IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT I
THINK THE FACT THAT ANESTHETIZED
STATE IS DYNAMIC MAKES IT
INTERESTINGIN FORMATIVE IN TERMS
OF NEUROSCIENCE AND NEUROBIOLOGY
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND STUDY WE
PUBLISHED IN 2020 TRIED TO
CHARACTERIZE TEMPORAL CIRCUITS
OF CONSCIOUS STATES AND CIRCLES
ARE REPRESENTING FUNCTIONAL
BRAIN NETWORKS AND ARROWS
TRANSITION PROBABILITIES ACROSS
THE DIFFERENT STATES.
YOU CAN SEE THAT ALTHOUGH
PROPOFOL AND KETAMINE MIGHT NOT
BE ASSOCIATION WITH CONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS, IT IS NOT A
MONOWILL IJIC STATE. THERE ARE
STILL SHIFTS ACROSS FUNCTIONAL
BRAIN NETWORKS AND THAT TEMPORAL
CIRCUIT IS INCOMPATIBLE WITH
CONSCIOUS PROCESSING AND
SUBSEQUENT REPORT SUGGESTED THAT
INTERIOR INSULA MIGHT PLAY A
ROLE IN DETERMINING STATE
TRANSITIONS SERVING AS A
CORTICAL GATE FOR CONSCIOUS
ACCESS.
AND THEN FINALLY, I WANT TO JUST
SURVEY SEVERAL STUDIES WE HAVE
CONDUCTED TO GIVE YOU A SENSE
WHAT ANTHETICS CAN DO IN TERMS
OF PROBING THEORIES OR
MECHANISMS OR CORRELATES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS.
ONE ORIGINAL RESEARCH PROGRAMS
SET OUT IN THE 1990S BY FRANCIS
CRICK AND CHRISTOF AND OTHERS
WAS TO IDENTIFY NEUROCORRELATES
OF CONSCIOUSNESS SO ULTIMATELY
WE COULD IDENTIFY NEURAL CAUSES
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND HAS BEEN
LOTS OF DISCUSSION IN THE PAST
WEEK BECAUSE OF TEMPLETON FUNDED
ADVERSARIAL COLLABORATION
PROBING VARIOUS MAJOR THEORIES
OF GENERAL ANESTHESIA AND WANTED
TO TAKE AN EMPIRICAL APPROACH OF
QUESTION TO ROLE OF PREFRONTAL
VERSUS POSTERIOR CORTEX IN TERMS
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND ACTIVATE
REGIONS AND SEE WHICH ONE WAS
CAPABLE OF INDUCING
CONSCIOUSNESS UNDER THE
STRINGENT CONDITIONS OF A
CLINICALLY RELEVANT ANESTHESIA
AND HOPEFULLY YOU ARE ABLE TO
SEE THIS. ANIMALS THAT HAVE EEG
AND HAVE MICRO DIALYSIS KAJ ET
TERS AND THIS IN PREMEDIAL
CORTEX AND THIS IN PARIETAL
CORTEX AND LOOKING AT FRONTAL
EEG AND PARIETAL EEG IN GREEN
AND REVERSE STYLIZING -- AGONIST
INTO THE PREFRONTAL CORTEX OF
POSTERIOR PARIETAL CORTEX AND
FIRST THING TO DO IS EEG CHANGES
AND SHIFTING TO FASTER ACTIVITY
AND ANIMALS ARE NOT WAKING UP
IMMEDIATELY DESPITE THIS
TRANSITION AND LOOKS LIKE THERE
IS SOME EP LEP TA FORM ACTIVITY
GOING ON HERE THAT RESOLVES
ULTIMATELY AND I WILL FAST
FORWARD. YOU SEE ANIMALS WITH
PREFRONTAL CORTICAL STIMULATION
THAT IS STARTING TO WAKE UP.
HOW DO WE KNOW ANIMALS ARE
CONSCIOUS OR UNCONSCIOUS?
ONE SURRO GATE WE USE THAT IS
ADMITTEDLY A PERFECT ONE IS
WRITING REFLEX AND ANIMALS LIKE
TO BE ON ALL FOURS.
TURNING THEM ON THEIR BACK THEY
WILL WRITE THEMSELVES AND WHEN
THEY LOSE THAT REFLEX DURING
ANESTHESIA WE CONSIDER IT
SURROGATE FOR UNCONSCIOUSNESS
AND ANIMAL FOR PREFRONTAL
STIMULATION IS STARTING TO RIGHT
ITSELF AND STARTING TO WAKE UP
AND WHAT IS ALSO INTERESTING IS
YOU SEE EEG ACTIVATED UNDER BOTH
OF THESE CONDITIONS.
AND NOW IF WE FORWARD -- TAKE A
LOOK AHEAD. YOU CAN SEE THIS
ANIMAL IS LOOKING RATHER AWAKE
DESPITE THE FACT THAT IT IS
STILL BREATHING CLINICAL WILL I
RELEVANT CONCENTRATIONS OF CEBO
FLUORINE AND POWERFUL
DEMONSTRATION IN MY MIND IN
TERMS OF GLOBAL STATE OF AROUSAL
AND ABILITY OF PREFRONTAL CORTEX
TO REVERSE THE ANESTHETIZED
STATE. WE CAN ALSO USE
ANTHETICS TO TEST DIFFERENT
ANOLYTIC MEASURES AND THIS IS A
STUDY FROM SEVERAL YEARS AGO
TRYING TO APPROXIMATE THE
MEASURE 5 THAT IS RELATED TO
INTEGRATED INFORMATION THEORY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS USING KETAMINE AND
ISOFLOURINE AND USING ANTHETICS
AS A REPRODUCIBLE TOOL TO STUDY
SOME ALGORITHMS OR ANALYTIC
TECHNIQUES IN A WAY THAT YOU
CAN'T WITH NEUROPATHOLOGIC STATE
OF UNCONSCIOUSNESS FOR EXAMPLE.
WE RECENTLY TRIED TO USE
ANTHETICS TO HELP UNDERSTAND THE
DIMENSIONS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
NOW, THIS TWO DIMENSIONAL MAP
HAS APPEARED SINCE THE 2000S.
AND WE COULD HAVE A LOT OF
DEBATES ABOUT THIS.
THESE TWO DIMENSIONS LISTED
LEVEL OF CONSCIOUSNESS OR GLOBAL
STATE OF AROUSAL AND WAKEFULNESS
AND CONTENT OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
AWARENESS AND WHAT WE ARE
EXPERIENCING AND WE COULD ARGUE
AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THERE ARE
MORE DIMENSIONS AND WHETHER
THESE SHOULD BE ORTHOGONAL TO
ONE ANOTHER. NOBODY REALLY
EXPLORED WHAT THESE DIMENSIONS
MEAN IN THE BRAIN AND EARLIER
THIS YEAR WE PUBLISHED AN
ARTICLE USING GENERAL ANTHETICS
AND ALSO COMPARING IT TO OTHER
POTENTIALLY ALTERED STATES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND TO SEE IF
CORTICAL GRADIENTS WERE ABLE TO
ENCODE DIMENSIONS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND, AGAIN,
PROPOFOL, SEDATION, ANESTHESIA,
KETAMINE, BEING ACCESSIBLE AND
REPRODUCIBLE TOOLS TO ASK
QUESTIONS LIKE THIS.
DATA ON ANESTHESIA CAN ALSO
INFORM THEORY AND SAW DR. DAHAN
IN THE AUDIENCE AND HAD GREAT
PRIVILEGE TO WORK WITH HIM AND
[INDISCERNIBLE] ON THIS
SYNTHESIS RELATE TODAY GLOBAL
NEURONAL WORKSPACE HYPOTHESIS
AND BELIEVE THAT ANESTHETIC DATA
SUPPORT THIS IN A VARIETY OF
WAYS AND DR. MIKE HIGHER IN 2013
PUBLISHED A THEORETICAL PIECE ON
EVOLUTION OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
THIS IS A QUESTION THAT DATES AT
LEAST TO DARWIN THAT STRUGGLED
WITH A QUESTION. HOW DO WE
STUDY IT?
ANTHETICS MIGHT BE HELPFUL AND
WORK ACROSS BIOLOGY AND ALSO THE
EMERGENCE PROCESS FROM GENERAL
ANESTHESIA THAT STARTS WITH FILO
GENETICALLY CONSERVED
SUBCORTICAL STRUCTURES.
WE CAN EVEN APPROACH SOME OF THE
FRINGE CONTROVERSIAL THEORIES
LIKE ORCHESTRATED OBJECTIVE
REDUCTION AND QUANTUM THEORY BY
ROGER PEN ROSE AND
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND HAS BEEN
AROUND A LONG TIME AND LOTS OF
PASSIONATE DISCUSSIONS AND
CONTROVERSIES BUT HAS BEEN VERY
LITTLE DATA TO EITHER ELIMINATE
THEORY FROM DISCOURSE OR MOVE OR
CONSIDER IT ASPECTS MORE
CAREFULLY AND HOW WILL WE STUDY
THIS CONCEPT THAT THE BRAIN IS
SOMEHOW FUNCTIONING IN SINGLE
QUANTUM PARTICLE AND
CONSCIOUSNESS SOMEHOW EMERGES
FROM QUANTUM COHERENCE.
I COULDN'T THINK OF A WAY BUT
COULD THINK OF A WAY TO STUDY A
COROLLARY OR IMPLICATION OF THAT
THEORY RELATE TODAY ANTHETIC
MECHANISMS COMING UP WITH
CONCEPTUAL FRAMEWORK FOR
INVESTIGATING EFFECTS OF
ANTHETICS ON ENTANGLED PHOTONS
IN PHOTOSYNTHESIS AND WAS
LOOKING FOR A MODEL THAT
ENTAILED A MACROSCOPIC QUANTUM
EVENT THAT WAS HAPPENING AT
BIOLOGICAL TEMPERATURES THAT IS
A CRITIQUE OF OR AND IS SUBJECT
TO EFFECTS OF ANTHETICS AND
CLAUDE BERNARD IN THE 19TH
CENTURY DEMONSTRATED THAT
ANTHETICS COULD REVERSIBLY
SUPPRESS PHOTO SYNTHESIS AND
PARTNERED WITH DR. TED GOODNESS
UP AT THE LEFT HERE AND IS A
QUANTUM CHEMIST AND APPLIED
PHYSICIST AT UNIVERSITY OF
MICHIGAN AND HE STUDIES QUANTUM
LIGHT IN A LASER LAB. LASER IS
SHOT THROUGH A CYST ALE AND WE
WERE ABLE TO STUDY INTERACTIONS
BETWEEN HALO GENERATED ETHERS
AND ENTANGLED CLASSICAL PHOTONS
CAN'T CONFIRM OR REFUTE THIS
MODEL AND CAN'T SAY THAT
BIOLOGICAL PHENOMENON OF GENERAL
ANESTHESIA IS QUANTUM IN NATURE.
I'M GIVING AN EXAMPLE HOW WE
WERE ABLE TO USE ANTHETICS AS A
WAY OF EMPIRICALLY PROBING A
THEORY OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
FINALLY, OUR WORK ON THE NEAR
DEATH EXPERIENCE.
THIS ELECTRICAL SURGE AT END OF
LIFE WAS FIRST IDENTIFIED WITH
AN ANESTHESIA MONITOR AND
BISPECTRAL INDEX THAT IS SHOWN
IN INTEROPERATIVE SETTING WITH
DONORS, ORGAN DONORS ALSO IN THE
CRITICAL CARE SETTING AND WERE
SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS AND
DR. GIMA A NEUROSCIENTIST AT
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND I
PARTNERED UP TO TAKE A
SYSTEMATIC APPROACH TO THIS IN
DYING ANIMALS EXPERIMENTAL
CARDIAC ARREST OR RESPIRATORY
ARREST AND ALSO LEVERAGING SOME
TECHNIQUES WE HAVE USED TO STUDY
ANTHETIC STATE TRANSITIONS
RECENTLY TRANESSLATED THIS TO
HUMANS.
ANOTHER ARTICLE IN PNES
PUBLISHED IN MAY. I HOPE I HAVE
CONVINCED OR COMPELLED YOU ABOUT
THE ORIGIN OF ANESTHESIOLOGY AND
WE ARE REALLY ALL ABOUT STATE
TRANSITIONS.
I THINK THIS IS REALLY CRITICAL
TO THE STUDY OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
GENERAL A- ANESTHESIA IS
BIOLOGICAL AND PLANTS STRESSED
EMIT GASES THAT HAVE ANTHETIC
PROPERTIES AND IS A TOOL TO
STUDY SENSATION ACROSS BIOLOGY
AND GENERAL ANESTHESIA IS
MECHANISTICALLY ASLEEP --
INFORMATIVE FOR STUDY OF THE
BRAIN AND CONSHOUSNESS AND HOPE
I HAVE SHOWN A FEW EXAMPLES
INCLUDING MANY PRODUCED BY THOSE
IN THE AUDIENCE THAT GENERAL
ANESTHESIA IS A POWERFUL TOOL TO
PROBE CONSCIOUSNESS.
I WANT TO ALSO ACKNOWLEDGE HENRY
BEACHER FORMER CHAIR OF
ANESTHESIA AT MASS GENERAL
PUBLISHING ARTICLE IN SCIENCE IN
1947 CALLED ANESTHESIA SECOND
POWER, PROBING THE MIND AND
FIRST POWER WAS MEDICAL
REVOLUTION OF PAINLESS SURGERY
AND SECOND POWER, ABILITY TO
EXPLORE AND INVESTIGATE MENTAL
PROCESSES.
AND WITH THAT, I WANT TO THANK
NIH FOR CONSISTENT SUPPORT AND
NSF WHO FUNDED GRADUATE STUDENTS
AND MULTI-DISCIPLINARY
COLLEAGUES THAT CENTER FOR
CONSCIOUSNESS SIGNS AND I WILL
THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR KIND
ATTENTION AND THANK ORGANIZERS
FOR OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE.
THANK YOU.
>> >> THANK YOU, GEORGE. I
INVITE QUESTIONS FROM THE ROOM.
>> HI. I KNOW THERE IS REPORTS
OF DREAMING STATES WHEN PATIENTS
WAKE UP FROM ANESTHESIA AND DO
YOU HAVE A SENSE WHETHER
COMPLETE FABULATION OR LINKED TO
DYNAMIC STATES THAT YOU
DESCRIBED OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
>> YEAH. THAT IS A GREAT
QUESTION.
SO, I THINK IT IS UNKNOWN. I
WOULD BE INTERESTED TO HEAR WHAT
EMORY OR MATT HAVE TO SAY.
THESE ARE REPORTED WITH SIMILAR
FREQUENCY AS DREAM RECALL AFTER
SLEEP AND WHEN YOU DO FORMAL
INTERVIEWS.
IT IS ABOUT 20% OF PATIENTS IN
RIGOROUS STUDIES AND WITH
KETAMINE IS UP TO 80% AS YOU
MIGHT IMAGINE.
THERE HAVE BEEN SOME STUDIES
SUGGESTING THAT THERE IS A
NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL SIGNATURE
DURING EMERGENCE BUT THINK IT IS
STILL UNCLEAR AS TO WHETHER OR
NOT THIS IS INTRINSIC TO THE
ANESTHETIZED STATE OR SOMETHING
THAT IS HAPPENING DURING THE
EMERGENCE PROCESS. THANK YOU.
>> THANKS.
>> THANKS VERY MUCH, GEORGE.
I'M WONDERING ABOUT TWO RELATED
THINGS, I THINK.
ONE, CAN YOU ELABORATE ON THE
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN EMERGENCE
FROM GENERAL ANESTHESIA AND
CONDITIONS LIKE UNRESPONSIVE
WAKEFULNESS AND MINIMALLY
CONSCIOUS STATE THAT IS
MENTIONED IN THE SLIDES.
I AM THINKING A LOT OF THE
CLINICAL TERMINOLOGY THAT GETS
USED AROUND THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE
AND PEOPLE STILL COMMONLY TALK
ABOUT WAKING FROM ANESTHESIA AND
THIS STRONGLY SUGGESTS A
SLEEP-LIKE STATE. IS THAT
SOMETHING YOU WOULD DISCOURAGE?
>> I WILL START WITH THE SECOND
QUESTION FIRST.
FIRST, I THINK IT IS A GOOD
POINT AND WE USE SLEEP AS A
METAPHOR. VERY OFTEN BECAUSE
PATIENTS WHO ARE COMING IN WHO
MIGHT NOT UNDERSTAND
ANESTHETIZED STATE CERTAINLY
HAVE EXPERIENTIAL KNOWLEDGE OF
REVERSIBLE STATE OF UNCONSCIOUS
THANES IS SLEEP. IT HAS
POSITIVE CONNOTATIONS OF
RESTORATION AND DON'T THINK
THOUGH THAT TALKING ABOUT
WAKEFULNESS OR WAKING UP
NECESSARILY TETHERS THAT TO
SLEEP. I DO THINK THAT WE NEED
TO RETHINK TERMINOLOGY AND
ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS AWARENESS AND
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT AWARENESS AND
ANESTHESIOLOGY, WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT INTRAOPERATIVE
CONSCIOUSNESS PLUS POST-OP
ITERATIVE EXPLICIT EPISODIC
RECALL OF SURGICAL EVENTS AND
THIS HAS A DIFFERENT MEANING
MORE STRICTLY RELATE TODAY
CONTENT OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN
COGNITIVE NEUROSCIENCE AND
PHILOSOPHY OF MIND AND IN TERMS
OF EMERGENCE, THAT IS A GREAT
QUESTION AND THINK WHAT WAS
REALLY INTERESTING IS I WAS
STARTING OFF MY CAREER AND
FACULTY FIRST IN 2007.
THERE IS AN EVOLUTION OF STUDY
SHOWING COMMON NEUROCORRELATES
ACROSS VARIOUS STATES OF
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND
PHYSIOLOGICAL FARM LOGIC AND
PATHOLOGIC AND QUESTION ARISES
IF SIMILAR NEUROCORRELATES HOW
COME SLEEP CAN BE REVERSED IN
SECONDS AND IN MINUTES AND IN
PATHOLOGIC STATE NOT AT ALL AND
STUDY OF EMERGENCE IS IMPORTANT
AND IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO
RECOGNIZE THE DIFFERENCES OF A
PHARMACOLOGICAL INTERVENTION AND
SOMEBODY WITH A HEALTHY BRAIN
AND THAN SOMEBODY WHO HAS A
STRUCTURAL ABNORMALITY AND
PATHOLOGIC STATE OF
UNCONSCIOUSNESS.
>> WE HAVE A QUESTION FROM THE
ONLINE AUDIENCE.
IT IS HAS ANYONE TESTED WHETHER
COGNITIVE FUNCTIONS OF SLEEP
SUCH AS MEMORY CONSOLIDATION
OCCUR WITH GENERAL ANTHETIC
AGENTS?
>> YES. I THINK THERE HAS BEEN
STUDIES RELATED TO IMPLICIT
MEMORY.
DURING THE ANESTHETIZED STATE
AND I CAN'T THINK OF ANY VERY
RECENTLY.
I DON'T THINK THAT, THAT HAS
BEEN WELL-CHARACTERIZED.
>> OKAY. THANK YOU. PLEASE
JOIN ME IN THANKING DR.
[INDISCERNIBLE].
>> THANK YOU.
>> SO, OUR FINAL SPEAKER OF THE
SESSION IS DR. MATTHEW BANKS WHO
COMES TO US FROM UNIVERSITY OF
WISCONSIN-MADISON.
-- SPECIFIC TO CHANGES IN
CONSCIOUSNESS INSIGHTS FROM
COMPARING SLEEP AND GENERAL
ANESTHESIA AND DR. BANKS
RECEIVED BSE AND MSC FROM JOHNS
HOPKINS AND DOCTORATE OF
NEUROSCIENCE -- HE IS PROFESSOR
OF ANESTHESIOLOGY AND AFFILIATE
-- WISCONSIN SCHOOL OF MEDICINE
AND PUBLIC HEALTH AND RECAN
SEARCH INCLUDES MECHANISMS OF
LOSS AND RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS OF ANESTHESIA AND
CHANGES IN AROUSAL DURING
NATURAL SLEEP AND LINK BETWEEN
INFORMATION AND BRAIN FUNCTION
OF DELIRIUM AND AMELIORATE
PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS.
>> THANK YOU, JIM. THANK YOU
ALSO TO JONATHAN AND TO BIYU FOR
INVITING ME AND TO ALL FOR
MAKING A TRIP AND TO ALL ONLINE
PARTICIPANTS.
I -- HONESTLY, I FEEL A LITTLE
INTIMIDATED COMING AFTER EMORY
AND GEORGE WHO ARE VERY LARGE
BOOTS TO FILL. I WILL DO MY
BEST AND USED TO STUDY
MECHANISMS OF ANESTHESIA IN MICE
AND RODENTS AND I DECIDED IT
WOULD BE EASIER TO STUDY IN
HUMANS. I'M NOT SURE THAT IS
REALLY TRUE AND ONE THING THAT
IS EASIER IN HUMANS IS THAT YOU
CAN ACTUALLY ASK THEM IF THEY
ARE CONSCIOUS AND WE TYPICALLY
BELIEVE THEY ARE ANSWERS. THESE
ARE MY DISCLOSURES.
AND I WILL TELL A STORY IN FOUR
PARTS AND HOPEFULLY WILL GET TO
THEM ALL. I WANT TO START WISHU
OF TERMINOLOGY AND WHAT WE ARE
MEASURING AND ASSUMING AND THINK
WE ARE ALL ON BOARD WITH
DISTINCTION BETWEEN CONSCIOUS
AND UNCONSCIOUS THAT IS THE
PRESENCE VERSUS ABSENCE OF
EXPERIENCE.
WE HAVE TALKED LESS ABOUT
CONNECTED VERSUS DISCONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT IS EXPERIENCE
THAT IS VERSUS IS NOT CONTROLLED
OR INFLUENCE THAT IS ROOTED IN
THE ENVIRONMENT AND DREAMING,
FOR EXAMPLE, IS A EXAMPLE OF
DISCONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS AND
WOULD ARGUE THAT SOMETHING VERY
MUCH LIKE DREAMING HAPPENS
DURING ANESTHESIA AS WELL.
UNIMPORTANTLY UNRESPONSIVENESS
IS WHAT WE GET WHEN WE ASK A
SUBJECT WHO IS BEING
ANESTHETIZED OR A PATIENT WHAT
WE GET WHEN THEY DON'T RESPOND
THAT UNRESPONSIVENESS IS A
MIXTURE OF CONSCIOUSNESS STATES
THAT IS THAT THEY COULD BE IN A
STATE OF CONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS
ABOUT YOU UNABLE OR UNMOTIVATED
TO RESPOND AND COULD BE IN STATE
OF DISCONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS
THAT IS HAVING EXPERIENCE AND
THAT EXPERIENCE IS NOT TETHERED
TO THE ENVIRONMENT AND THEY
COULD BE UNCONSCIOUS AND THINK
THAT WE OFTEN SORT OF MAKE THE
ASSUMPTION THAT PEOPLE ARE
UNCONSCIOUS UNDER ANESTHESIA AND
MAKES US FEEL BETTER GOING INTO
THE OR TO ASSUME THAT IS THE
CASE.
IT IS AN ASSUMPTION.
MY COLLABORATOR AND FRIEND ROB
SANDERS WROTE A NICE PAPER
ACTUALLY WITH GIULIO AND OTHERS
A WHILE BACK ABOUT THIS ISSUE OF
UNRESPONSIVENESS VERSUS
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND ENCOURAGE
YOU TO CHECK IT OUT AND GETTING
AT THAT ISSUE OF DREAMING AND
ANESTHESIA AND HAVE BEEN MANY
STUDIES REPORTING DREAMING IN
ANESTHESIA BOTH IN PATIENTS AND
IN RESEARCH SUBJECT VOLUNTEERS
AND THE PERCENTAGES THAT ARE
VARIED DEPENDING ON THE DRUG AND
STUDY AND PATIENTS STUDIES I
LOOKED AT REPORT SOMETHING
BETWEEN 20 TO 50% AND GEORGE
MENTIONED KETAMINE INCIDENTS
THAT IS MUCH HIGHER AND RESEARCH
SUBJECTS FOR EXAMPLE HARRY HAD A
VERY LARGE STUDY DONE IN FINLAND
ON SEVERAL DIFFERENT ANTHETIC
AGENT AND THOSE SUBJECTS REPORTS
WERE 80 TO 90% OF THE TIME THAT
PATIENT -- SUBJECTS WERE
UNRESPONSIVE DURING ANESTHESIA
AND ACTUALLY REPORTED DREAMING
OR EXPERIENCE AFTERWARDS.
SO, AGAIN, I THINK IT IS
IMPORTANT FOR US TO KEEP THAT IN
MI
MIND.
AS I MENTIONED I FOCUSED ON
HUMAN SUBJECTS RESEARCH FOR A
NUMBER OF YEARS AND WORK WITH
INTRACRANIAL ELECTROPHYSIOLOGY
THAT IS THE TERM I USE TO REFER
TO ECOG AND STEREO-EEG IS
COLLECTED IN CONTEXT OF EPILEPSY
PATIENTS THAT COME IN TO HAVE
BRAIN RECEPTION SURGERY.
AND WE -- WE GATHER A TREMENDOUS
AMOUNT OF DATA FROM PATIENTS
THAT IS A REMARKABLE
OPPORTUNITY.
AND ENTERPRISE.
THAT DATA THAT IS COLLECTED
INCLUDES MRI BOTH STRUCTURAL AND
FUNCTIONAL AND INTRACRANIAL
ELECTROPHYSIOLOGICAL DATA ITSELF
THAT YIELDS LOCAL FIELD
POTENTIALS AND UNITY COGNITIVETY
AND DO COGNITIVE ASSESSMENTS OF
PATIENTS PREOPERATIVE AND
POST-OP ITERATIVE AND DO
AUDIOLOGY TO TEST SENSORY
APPARATUS. WE COLLECT
BIOMARKERS FOR EXAMPLE FOR
DEMENTIA RISK AND INFLAMMATION.
THERE IS LOTS OF OPPORTUNITIES
FOR BUILDING A RESEARCH PROGRAM
AND DESIGNING EXPERIMENTS
FOCUSED ON THESE TYPES OF DATA.
WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY FOR
EXAMPLE TO INVESTIGATE DELIRIUM
POST-OP ITERATIVE DELIRIUM AND
POST ICTAL DELIRIUM THAT IS
SOMETHING WE ARE ACTIVE ENGAGE
IN TO LOOK AT OVERLAPS AND
INFLUENCE FOR EXAMPLE OF SLOWER
ACTIVITY ON THE BRAIN IN ALTERED
STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND WE
DO MANY EXPERIMENTS WHEN THE
SUBJECTS ARE -- WHEN PATIENTS
ARE AWAKE. THOSE ARE TASK-BASED
EXPERIMENTS AND RESTING STATE
EXPERIMENTS AND DO OVERNIGHT
SLEEP RECORDINGS WITH SCALP EEG
AND EMG AND DO POLY SIN OWING
GRAPHY AND OTHER DAYS THEY DON'T
HAVE EEG LEADS ATTACHED AND WE
USE SOMETHING CALLED WATCH PAD
TO MONITOR SLEEP STUDIES LESS
ACCURATELY AND IN CONTEXT OF
OVERNIGHT SLEEP EXPERIMENTS DO
WAKE UP EXPERIMENTS AND DATA HAS
BEEN REPORTED AND WE DO
ANESTHESIA EXPERIMENTS BOTH
INDUCTION OF ANESTHESIA AND WE
-- WE HAVE APPROVAL FOR LOOKING
AT 4 DIFFERENT DRULGS AND HAVE
CURRENTLY DONE PROPOE FOL AND
[INDISCERNIBLE] AS WELL AS
EMERGENCE AND LOOK AND COMPARE
INDUCTION AND EMERGENCE IN THE
SAME PATIENTS AND CURRENTLY THAT
WORK IS BEING DONE AT TWO SITES.
COLLABORATOR IS AT UNIVERSITY OF
IOWA UNDER DIRECTION OF MATT
HOWARD AND DEPARTMENT OF SURGERY
NEUROSURGEON IS [INDISCERNIBLE]
AND MY COLLABORATOR AND GOOD
FRIEND KIRILL IS THE HEAD OF THE
RESEARCH PROGRAM WE ARE ENGAGED
IN AND AT UNIVERSITY OF IOWA
THEY RECORDED FROM OR RECRUITED
225 PATIENTS IN PAST 25 YEARS
AND DOING EXPERIMENTS AT
UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN AND
NEUROSURGEON WENDY LAKE AND
RECORDED FROM 16 PATIENTS OVER
TWO YEARS AND CURRENT FUNDED
RESEARCH FROM NIH COLLECTING
DATA ON BOTH SITES AND GETTING
16 TO 20 PATIENTS PER YEAR AT
THE TWO SITES.
OKAY. SO, I WANTED TO SORT OF
TALK ABOUT THIS COMPARISON
BETWEEN SLEEP AND ANESTHESIA
THAT WE HAVE BEEN FOCUSED ON FOR
SEVERAL YEARS NOW AND WANTED TO
POINT OUT FIRST OF ALL THEORIES
OF CONSCIOUSNESS DON'T ACTUALLY
SPECIFY THE CONTEXT OF LOSS AND
RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
ARE MORE INTERESTED IN WHAT IS
THE STRUCTURE THAT OR PROCESSES
THAT UNDERLIE CONSCIOUS
EXPERIENCE.
AND OUR PREMISE IS THAT
CONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS AND
DISCONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS AND
UNCONSCIOUSNESS OCCURRED DURING
SLEEP AND GENERAL ANESTHESIA AND
HYPOTHESIS IS IT SHOULD BE
POSSIBLE TO OBSERVE COMMON BRAIN
NETWORK RE-ORGANIZATION DURING
SLEEP AND ANESTHESIA THAT IS
REFLECTIVE OF STATES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND THAT IS THERE
ARE MANY DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
SLEEP AND ANESTHESIA AND HEARD
ABOUT THEM THIS MORNING FOR
EXAMPLE AND THE -- THE PROCESS
OR THE -- THE RE-ORGANIZATION
THAT HAPPENS IN THE NETWORKING
THAT CORRESPONDS TO OR UNDERLIES
CONSCIOUSNESS, WE HYPOTHESIZE IT
WILL BE THE SAME REGARDLESS OF
CONTEXT IN WHICH THAT OCCURS.
AND WE ARE INVESTIGATING NETWORK
STRUCTURE IN PARTICULAR AND DATA
THAT I WILL SHOW YOU TODAY THAT
IS WE ARE FOCUSED ON
CONNECTIVITY.
THE -- THE -- AND PART OF THE
MOTIVATION FOR THAT IS THE
CHANGES IN THE NEUROSUBSTRATED
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT SHOULD
MANIFEST CHANGES IN STRUCTURE
OPPOSED TO CHANGES IN NETWORK
ACTIVITY.
SO, THESE EXPERIMENTS ARE --
THEY ARE DONE IN THESE PATIENTS
ON TWO DIFFERENT OCCASIONS AND
OVERNIGHT SLEEP EXPERIMENT THAT
I MENTIONED AND IT IS INVOLVING
MANY HOURS OF REPORTING WITH
SCALP EEG LEADS IN ADDITION TO
INTRACRANIAL ELECTRODES AND EMG
AND DOING POLYSIN OWING GRAPHY
AND LABEL DATA AT ANY GIVEN
MOMENT IN TIME WITH DIFFERENCE
STATES OF SLEEP COLOR COATED
HERE FOR YOUR REFERENCE AND WE
ALSO THEN ON A DIFFERENT DAY
JUST PRIOR TO THE REMOVAL OF THE
ELECTRODES, WE DO AN INDUCTION
EXPERIMENT. IN THAT INDUCTION
EXPERIMENT WE ARE DOING FOR
EXAMPLE A SLOW INFUSION OF
PROPOFOL IN WHICH INCREASE DOSE
OF PROPOFOL SO WE CAN CAPTURE A
SEDATED STATE THAT IS STATE
WHICH THERE IS DRUG ON BOARD AND
PATIENTS ARE STILL RESPONSIVE
AND IN UNRESPONSIVE STATE THAT
WE ASSUME THAT AT LEAST
SOMETIMES THEY ARE UNCONSCIOUS
AND WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW
WHETHER THEY ARE UNCONSCIOUS OR
IN DISCONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS.
AND SO WE HAVE THESE FIVE STATES
OF -- STAGES OF SLEEP AND HAVE
THREE STAGES OF ANESTHESIA.
AND OUR HYPOTHESIS IS THAT SOME
OF THE STATES ARE GOING TO
OVERLAP IN TERMS OF WHAT THE
NETWORK STRUCTURE OR BRAIN
NETWORK STRUCTURE LOOKS LIKE AND
IN PARTICULAR WE HAVE IDENTIFIED
STATES N2 AND N3 DURING SLEEP
AND UNRESPONSIVE SLEEP DURING
ANESTHESIA REDUCE PROBABILITY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT WE EXPECT
THAT NETWORK STRUCTURE WILL BE
SIMILAR.
AND STATES SUCH AS REM AND WAKE
AND LIKELY N1 AND SEDATED STATE
IN WHICH PROBABILITY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IS HIGH AS IN
STATES IN WHICH THE NETWORK
STRUCTURE WILL BE SIMILAR.
SO, AGAIN, WE -- WE DO
MEASUREMENTS OF FUNCTIONAL
CONNECTIVITY AT LEAST IN THE
FIRST PART OF THE TALK AND WILL
GET TO EFFECTIVE [INDISCERNIBLE]
LATER AND THIS IS TYPICAL
ELECTROCOVERAGE IN OLDER
PATIENTS DOING EXCLUSIVELY
STEREO-EEGS NOT DOING GRIDS
ANYMORE AND WE HAVE 200
RECORDING SITES IN PATIENTS AND
WE CAN THEN CALCULATE PAIR OIS
FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY GETTING
A MATRIX THAT I'M ILLUSTRATING
HERE AND WE ORGANIZE OR ORDER
ELECTRODES ROUGHLY
HIERARCHICALLY THAT IS AN AUDIO
CENTRIC LAB. LOTS OF THE
ELECTRODES ARE IN OR AROUND
AUDITORY CORTEX AND ORDERED THEM
THAT WAY AND CAN DO ANALYSIS AT
ELECTRODE LEVEL AND AT REGION OF
INTEREST LEVEL AND WE CAN ALSO
REPRESENT CONNECTIVITY AS IN
THESE CORE CONNECTIVITY PLOTS
THAT I WILL DO IN THE NEXT SLIDE
OR 2.
THIS PARTICULAR MEASURE OF
FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY IS ALPHA
[INDISCERNIBLE] INDEX AND USED
OTHER MEASURES OF FUNCTIONAL
CONNECTIVITY AS WELL.
THIS IS ONE OF THE MAIN RESULTS
FROM SEVERAL YEARS AGO.
IN WHICH WE EXAMINED THIS
REGIONAL -- REGION BY REGION
FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY IN
STAGES OF SLEEP AND ANESTHESIA
AND WHAT YOU CAN SEE I THINK
JUST BY EYE IS THAT THE FIVE
STAGES ON THE LEFT OF THIS
DIVIDING LINE THAT CORRESPONDS
TO WAKE STAGES AND REM SLEEP AND
PROBABILITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS IS
HIGH AS WELL AS N1 AND SEDATED
LOOK SIMILAR TO EACH OTHER AND
PRETTY DISTINCT FROM N2 SLEEP
AND UNRESPONSIVE STATE AROUND
ANESTHESIA THAT LOOK REMARKABLY
SIMILAR TO EACH OTHER IN TERMS
OF CONNECTIVITY PROFILES AND
SHOWED BASICALLY CONNECTIVITY
SHIFTING FROM BEING SORT OF MORE
DOMINANT STRONGEST CONNECTIVITY
IN THE BACK OF THE BRAIN IN THE
STATES OF ELEVATED PROBABILITY
OF CONSCIOUSNESS THAT IS
COMPARED TO SHIFTING TO THE
FRONT OF THE BRAIN DURING STATES
OF REDUCED PROBABILITY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS.
AND WE ALSO -- IN USING DATA AND
BECAUSE WE CAN MEASURE
CONNECTIVITY JUST USING VERY
BRIEF SEGMENTS OF DATA AS LITTLE
AS 10 SECONDS WE CAN DO A
CLASSIFIER ANALYSIS AND TRAIN A
CLASSIFIER ON THE SLEEP DATA.
AND THEN SEE IF IT CAN CLASSIFY
OTHER STAGES OF THE N2 SLEEP
DATA AND SEE IF IT CAN CLASSIFY
OTHER STAGES OF SLEEP AND
CLASSIFY ANESTHESIA DATA AND
DOES A REMARKABLY GOOD JOB OF
DOING THAT THAT IS FOR EXAMPLE
UNRESPONSIVE STATE OF ANESTHESIA
IS WELL CLASSIFIED BY CLASSWARD
TREND IN N2 AND N3 SLEEP.
>> A TRIAL BY TRIAL BASIS?
THESE ARE AVERAGES ACROSS FIVE
PATIENTS AND IN EACH OF THE
PATIENTS WAS SUCCESSFUL. DON'T
HAVE NUMBERS HERE BUT ABLE TO DO
IT IN EACH OF THE PATIENTS
VISUALLY AND DATA IS IN
SUPPLEMENTAL PAPER THAT WE CAN
TALK ABOUT LATER.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU AT LEAST
EVIDENCE THAT THERE ARE
OVERLAPPING MECHANISMS OF
CHANGES IN CONSCIOUS STATE IN
SLEEP AND ANESTHESIA AND WOULD
LIKE TO KNOW WHAT NETWORK
ORGANIZATION ACTUALLY LOOKS
LIKE.
AND TO DO THAT, WE ARE -- WE
STARTED TO USE A METHOD THAT
GEORGE ELUDED TO IN HIS TALK
DIFFUSION MAP IMBEDDING AND WAS
MOTIVATED BY THE OBSERVATION
THAT IN FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY
MATRICES SHOWING ANOTHER ONE
HERE THIS IS A DIFFERENT MEASURE
OF CONNECTIVITY AND AGAIN IS NOT
MUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
DIFFERENT MEASURES OF
CONNECTIVITY.
WHAT WE OBSERVE IS THAT UNDER
ANESTHESIA THERE IS A LOT MORE
COMMUNITY STRUCTURE AND MORE
BLOCKINESS AND SOME SORT OF
STRUCTURE THAT IS OBVIOUS IN
FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY MATRICES
THAT SEEM TO TELL US SOMETHING
ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE
BRAIN AND IN THE BRAIN NETWORK
IN THE UNRESPONSIVE STATE UNDER
ANESTHESIA AND DIFFUSION MAP
IMBEDDING IS A WAY TO GET
ANSWERS ABOUT OR WAY TO
INTERROGATE FUNCTIONAL
CONNECTIVITY MATRICES TO
UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY ARE TRYING
TO TELL US ILLUSTRATED WITH A
TOY MODEL HERE AND TAKING
FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY MATRIX
AND NORMIZE IT AND DIFFUSION
MATRIX AND REASON IT IS CALLED
THAT IS NOT IMPORTANT IN THE
MOMENT AND IN THREE EXAMPLES WE
INCREASINGLY STRONG COMMUNITY
STRUCTURE IN THE TOY MODEL.
AND WE ARE ALSO PLOTTING OUT THE
OOIG AN VALUE SPECTRUM OF
CONNECTIVITY MATRICES AND YOU
SEE SPECTRUM ITSELF HAS
INFORMATION ABOUT THE COMMUNITY
STRUCTURE THAT IS WELL-KNOWN IN
THE SPECTRAL THEORY AND IF WE
TAKE THESE DATA AND USE THE
EYEINGIAN VALUE SPECTRUM MAP
INTO IMBEDDING SPACE AND
FUNCTIONAL SIMILARITY BETWEEN
RECORDING SITES AS MEASURED BY
SIMILAR CONNECTIVITY PROFILES TO
THE REST OF THE BRAIN
CORRESPONDS TO EUCLIDIAN
DISTANCE IN IMBEDDING SPACE AND
FOR EXAMPLE WHEN COMMUNITY
STRUCTURE IS WEAK SIMULATED
RECORDING SITES ARE SCATTERED
AND IS LOOSE ORGANIZATION TO
THEM AND THEY ARE SCATTERED AND
COMMUNITY STRUCTURE IS STRONG
RECORDING STARTS TO CLUSTER INTO
TIGHT CLUSTERS CORRESPONDING TO
LOSS OF DISTINCTION OR
DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN
DIFFERENT RECORDING SITES AND
CLUSTERS THEMSELVES START TO
MOVE FARTHER APART FROM EACH
OTHER INDICATING A DECREASE IN
FUNCTIONAL INTEGRATION BETWEEN
THESE DIFFERENT REGIONS.
SO, WHEN WE APPLY THIS TO OUR
ANESTHESIA DATA, WE SAW SIMILAR
CHANGE IN THE OOIGIAN VALUE
SPECTRUM THAT GETS PEAKER
REFLECTING A CHANGE IN COMMUNITY
STRUCTURE -- WE QUANTIFY THIS
CHANGE IN COMMUNITY STRUCTURE
USING WHAT WE CALL EFFECTIVE
DIMENSIONALITY THAT IS MEASURE
OF COMPLEXITY OR ENTROPY IN
CONNECTIVITY MATRIX AND SINGLE
MOMENT IN TIME CORRESPONDING TO
HOW COMPLICATED OR UNCOMPLICATED
THE NETWORK IS AND CAN TRACK
CHANGES IN THAT EFFECTIVE
DIMENSIONALITY FOR EXAMPLE
DURING OVERNIGHT SLEEP AND SEE
WHEN PATIENTS TRANSITION INTO
FOR EXAMPLE N2 SLEEP EFFECTIVE
DIMENSIONALITY GOES DOWN AND
COMMUNITY STRUCTURE MEANS THAT
NETWORK IS LESS COMPLICATED AND
DURING REM SLEEP FOR EXAMPLE YOU
HAVE WAKELIKE COMMUNITY
STRUCTURE IN THE NETWORK AND WE
SEE SOMETHING SIMILAR DURING THE
ANESTHESIA EXPERIMENT.
AGAIN, EACH OF THE DATA POINTS
REPRESENTS A SHORT SEGMENT OF
DATA WE CALCULATE FUNCTIONAL
CONNECTIVITY.
THAT EFFECT IS CONSISTENT ACROSS
PATIENTS AND WE SEE BASICALLY A
SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN
UNRESPONSIVE STATE AND WAKE
STATE AND IT IS ACROSS OUR 15
PATIENTS.
AND WE SEE A SIMILAR PHENOMENON
DURING SLEEP AND NOTABLY DURING
REM SLEEP EFFECTIVE
DIMENSIONALITY JUMPS BACK UP AND
THINGS NOT SHOWING YOU DUE TO
TIME IS THIS EFFECT IS GLOBAL.
THAT IS WE DID A SENSITIVITY
ANALYSIS LEAVING OUT DIFFERENT
REGIONS OF THE BRAIN DOING
ANALYSIS AND DIDN'T MATTER IF WE
LEFT OUT PREFRONTAL OR PARIETAL
CORTEX OR WHATEVER AND SAW SAME
EFFECT AND IT IS NOT
FREQUENCY-BOUND SPECIFIC AND SEE
SIMILAR RESULTS ACROSS FREQUENCY
SPECTRUM.
I HAVE SHOWN YOU INTERROGATION
OF THIS CONNECTIVITY MATRIX.
AND WHAT WE CAN ALSO DO, AGAIN,
IS PLOT DATA IN IMBEDDING SPACE.
WE START TO SEE CLUSTERING OF
RECORDING SITES AND IMBEDDING
SPACE DURING ANESTHESIA.
AND ALSO DURING -- DURING N3
SLEEP AND CORRESPONDING TO
DECREASE IN DIFFERENTIATION IN
FUNCTIONAL INTEGRATION THAT I
SHOWED YOU WITH THE MODEL. IN
THE LAST COUPLE MINUTES I WILL
HAVE TO FLY THROUGH SOME -- SOME
SORT OF CURRENT PROJECTS.
WE ARE SORT OF INTERESTED IN
DYNAMICS OF, YOU KNOW, TIME
SERIES ANALYSIS INDICATES THERE
IS INTERESTING DYNAMICS TO WHAT
IS HAPPENING DURING SLEEP AND
ANESTHESIA.
WE ARE ALSO INTERESTED IN
LOOKING AT EFFECTIVE
CONNECTIVITY IN ADDITION TO
FUNCTIONAL CONNECTIVITY
INTERESTED IN GETTING AT HIDDEN
STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS THAT IS
AS OPPOSED TO JUST THE
ASSUMPTION SOMEBODY IS
UNCONSCIOUS WHEN UNRESPONSIVE.
AGAIN, WE CAN MEASURE FUNCTIONAL
CONNECTIVITY USING VERY SHORT
SEGMENTS OF TIME.
WE CAN ESTIMATE DIRECTED
CONNECTIVITY AND SORT OF GRANGER
TYPE CAUSALITY USING
MULTIVARATTIVE AGGRESSIVE MODELS
WITH THIS DATA AND THESE MODELS
HAVE MANY, MANY PARAMETERS AND
WORKED ON METHODS TO REDUCE DATA
REQUIREMENTS FOR FITTING MODELS
AND SPECIFICALLY DIFFERENT
REGULARIZATION STRATEGIES AND
ONE REGULARIZATION STRATEGY WE
USE ACTUALLY FUNCTIONAL MRI
RESTING STATE CONNECTIVITY TO
INFORM MODEL FITS TO GREATLY
REDUCE AMOUNTS OF DATA REQUIRED
TO FIT MODELS AND CAN GET A
REASONABLE FIT TO A NETWORK WITH
200 RECORDING SITES USING AS
LITTLE AS 4 SECONDS OF DATA AND
DERIVING EFFECTIVE CONNECTIVITY
MEASUREMENTS FROM DATA.
AND THEN FINALLY, INFERRING
HIDDEN STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS
AND MENTIONING SLEEP DATA IS
MEASUREMENTS OF CONSCIOUSNESS
DATA AND FROM GIULIO'S LAB AND
DOING SLEEP-WAKE EXPERIMENTS TO
PRO EBB THAT QUESTION AND ARE
HYPOTHESIZING DIFFERENT STATES
OF CONSCIOUSNESS. IN THIS
PARTICULAR APPROACH WE HAVE 4
DIFFERENT STATES AND NUMBER OF
STATES IS SOMETHING WE ARE
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
CONSTRAIN AND COUPLE DIFFERENT
CONNECTED STATE AND DISCONNECTED
CONSCIOUS STATE AND
TRANSITIONING WITH RAPID
DYNAMICS AND TRANSITIONS ARE
REFLECTED IN CONNECTIVITY CHANGE
OFS AND TAKE DATA SEGMENTED INTO
SHORT SEGMENTS AND USE A METHOD
THAT WE CAN TRY TO FIT THOSE
FOUR DIFFERENT MODELS TO DATA
AND DOING THAT WE ARE ABLE TO
CAPTURE SOME OF THE EXPECTED
DYNAMICS AND EXPECTED STATES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS DURING DIFFERENT
STAGES OF SLEEP.
THEY COMPARE WELL TO WHAT IS
OBSERVED IN THESE SLEEP WAKE
EXPERIMENTS.
S
SO, FUTURE DIRECTIONS TALKING
ABOUT WORKING ON IDENTIFYING
STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
DERIVING HIDDEN STATES AND
MAPPING FROM INTRACRANIAL TO
SCALP EEGS TO WORK WITH MORE
PATIENTS AND CLINICAL SETTINGS
AND ARE INTERESTED IN DIFFERENT
SIMILARITIES BETWEEN POST-OP
ITERATIVE AND POST DICK TAL
DELIRIUM AND THANKING
COLLABORATORS AND WE MIGHT HAVE
TIME FOR A QUESTION OR 2. THANK
YOU.
>> HI. I WONDER IF YOU HAVE
THOUGHTS ABOUT WHERE DISORDERS
OF UNCONSCIOUSNESS FIT IN THE
FOUR SORT OF STAGES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS GIVEN THAT
CURRENTLY THEY ARE DEFINED IN
TERMS OF RESPONSIVENESS.
>> YEAH. SO, I MEAN, WE ARE
SPECIFICALLY TRYING TO APPLY TO
DELIRIUM AN ACUTE DISORDER OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND WE THINK THAT
DELIRIUM IS PROBABLY A MIXTURE
OR A -- IT INVOLVES FLUCTUATING
CHANGES BETWEEN SOMETHING THAT
IS CLOSER TO A DISCONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS VERSUS A CONNECTED
CONSCIOUS STATE THAT ATTENTION
IS GREATLY IMPAIRED AND WORK OF
HYPOTHESIS AND WILL USE THIS
DATA TO DRIVE EVIDENCE FOR THAT.
>> HI, MATTHEW. TERRIFIC WORK.
I LOVE THE DYNAMIC ANALYSIS IN
MULTIDIMENSIONAL COMPOSITION.
I WANT TO CHALLENGE YOUR
CHARACTERIZATION OF DREAMINGNESS
IN FORM OF DISCONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS AND MIGHT GUESS
WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM HERE
AND TERM DISCONNECTED HAS AN
IMPLICIT ASSUMPTION TO THAT IS
THAT THE ONLY THING
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT CAN BE
CONNECTED TO IS THE ENVIRONMENT.
EVEN LOOKING AT YOUR DATA, WE
KNOW FROM LOTS OF RESEARCH THAT
REM AS A STATE LOOKS IN FACT
VERY SIMILAR TO WAKEFULNESS.
I JUST WANTED TO ASK WHY YOU
DECIDED TO GO WITH DISCONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS RATHER THAN
ENVIRONMENTALLY DISCONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS OPPOSED TO HOMEO
STATICALLY CONNECTED
CONSCIOUSNESS OR SOMETHING ELSE
CONNECTED CONSCIOUSNESS AND WHAT
ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THAT?
>> I WAS HANDED THE TERM AND CAN
BLAME IT ON OTHER PEOPLE AND
AGREE THAT WE ARE ACTUALLY
INVOLVED IN A VERY WEIRD AND
INTERESTING AND RELEVANT STUDY
RIGHT NOW THAT MY COLLABORATOR
CALLS THE PISS PISS EXPERIMENT
AND THAT IS PHENOMENON WHEN YOU
DREAM AND YOU HAVE TO PEE AND
YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY PEE AND YOU
WAKE UP AND GO PEE AND HOPEFULLY
THAT IS WHAT HAPPENS THAT
APPARENTLY ONLY HAPPENS IN ABOUT
HALF OF THE PEOPLE THAT WE HAVE
ASKED ABOUT THAT IS PRODUCING
AND YOU ARE CLEARLY GETTING A
RECEPTIVE SIGNAL WHILE DREAMING
AND AGREE THERE IS INTERESTING
SUBTLETY THERE AND DISCONNECTION
WE CAN TELL REFERS TO AGENT
DOING ASKING REFERS TO PATIENT
AND AGREE THAT DISCONNECTED
MIGHT BE A BETTER TERM.
>> THANKS. I'M INTERESTED IN
THE APPARENT DISAGREEMENT WITH
EMORY'S TALK AND PATIENTS UNDER
ANESTHESIA PROFOUNDLY
UNCONSCIOUS FROM EEG AND ON FACE
OF IT YOU ARE QUESTIONING THIS
AND I'M INTERESTED IN WHETHER
THIS IS JUST APPEARANCE OF SD
DISAGREEMENT OR IF THERE IS AN
IMPORTANT IKKU AT STAKE HERE.
>> IT IS IMPOSSIBLE AT MOMENT TO
VERIFY IF SOMEONE IS UNCONSCIOUS
AND SOMETHING WE ARE TRYING TO
WORK ON TO FIGURE OUT. YOU CAN
VERIFY IF SOMEBODY IS
UNCONSCIOUS AND IF THEY DON'T
RESPOND THERE IS LOTS OF
DIFFERENT POSSIBILITIES.
>> DO YOU THINK VERY SLOW WA OF
EEG SIGNATURES COULD BE
INDICATING FORMS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS?
>> SO, AGAIN, WHAT I'M SAYING IS
THAT WE DON'T -- WE ARE ASSUMING
THAT IS THE CASE. THAT IS AN
ASSUMPTION.
RIGHT. IT MAY WELL BE TRUE AND
OBVIOUSLY EMORY FEELS STRONGLY
IT IS.
THAT IS AN ASSUMPTION.
WHAT WE ARE DOING HERE IS I
THINK WE ARE TRYING TO FIGURE
THAT OUT AND ONE EXAMPLE ROB
SANDERS DID A SERIES OF
EXPERIMENTS WITH ISOLATED FORUM
TECHNIQUE THAT BASICALLY YOU
ANESTHETIZE SOMEBODY AND USE
THEIR ARM OR USE A TOURNIQUET SO
THEIR ARM IS STILL RESPONSIVE
AND THEY CAN SKEEZ YOUR ARM FOR
EXAMPLE AND ASKED PEOPLE TO
SKEEZ THEIR HAND AND THEY SHOWED
SLOW WAVE ACTIVITY IN E EG THERE
WAS 6 OF 90 PEOPLE IN THE STUDY
THAT ACTUALLY RESPONDED.
SO, IT IS AT LEAST POSSIBLE THAT
YOU CAN HAVE SLOW WAVE ACTIVITY
IN E EG AND STILL BE AWARE.
YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I THINK IT IS
SOMETHING THAT WE NEED TO VERIFY
RATHER THAN ASSUME.
THANK YOU. EXCELLENT SESSION
THIS MORNING.
WE ARE EATING A LITTLE INTO THE
COFFEE BREAK AND WE CAN TAKE
TIME FOR 10 MINUTES FOR COFFEE
BREAK AND RETURN HERE 40 MINUTES
AFTER THE HOUR.
HELLO, EVERYBODY.
I'M YOSEF PARVIZI AND WILL
MODERATE THIS SESSION FIRST
SPEAKER IS HIS HIENES DR.
BLUMENFELD DIRECTOR OF SURGERY
AT YALE UNIVERSITY AND EXPERT ON
BRAIN MECHANISMS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AS WE ALL KNOW AND
HE SPECIALIZES IN STUDIES OF
ALTERED CONSCIOUSNESS IN
EPILEPSY AND IS THE LEADER IN
THE FIELD, BY FAR. WE ALL
LISTEN TO HIM AND GET INSPIRED
BY HIS IDEAS AND WHAT HE HAS TO
REPORT IN TERMS OF EMPIRICAL
FINDINGS AND DIRECTS YALE
NEUROCLINICAL IMAGING CENTER AND
IS AN ACTIVE CLINICIAN DEALING
WITH PATIENTS WITH REFRACTORY
EPILEPSY AND HAS A LAB THAT DOES
MULTIMODAL TYPE OF WORK.
IN ADDITION TO ALL THIS, HE HAS
AUTHORED WONDERFUL TEXT BOOK IN
NEUROLOGY THAT IS WIDELY USED IN
MEDICAL SCHOOLS AND I USE IN
TEACHING AND LOVE FIGURES AND
SIMPLICITY AND CLARITY IN THE
TEXTBOOK AND PLEASE WELCOME DR.
BLUMEN
BLUMENFELD.
>> THANK YOU, YOSEF. IT HAS
BEEN FUN TO LEARN FROM EACH
OTHER AND TALKS HAVE BEEN
OUTSTANDING AND DISCUSSIONS
IN-BETWEEN HAVE ALSO BEEN QUITE
AMAZING.
THERE ARE SLIDES UP HERE.
I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT
SUBCORTICAL AROUSAL AND
DETECTION AND PUT THAT IN
CONTEXT OF NORMAL CONSCIOUSNESS
AND IMPAIRED CONSCIOUSNESS AND
DISORDERS LIKE EPILEPSY AND WILL
START WITH A STORY AND, AGAIN,
BRIEF OVERVIEW AND TALKING ABOUT
EARLY DETECTION SIGNALS AND
EARLIEST SIGNALS THAT CAUSES
BIFURCATION BETWEEN WHAT WE ARE
AND ARE NOT CONSCIOUSNESS AND
HASN'T BEEN EMPHASIS SO FAR IN
THESE SESSIONS THAT WE WILL TALK
ABOUT A BIT AND WILL TALK ABOUT
SUBCORTICAL AROUSAL AND HOW THAT
TRANSIENTLY MAY BE MODULATED AT
TIME OF CONSCIOUS EVENTS AND HOW
IT COULD BE IMPORTANT FOR
CONTROLLING AND AUGMENTING AND
FACILITATING WHAT WE ARE OR ARE
NOT CONSCIOUSNESS AND WILL TALK
ABOUT NEUROSTIMULATION AND HOW
IT CAN BE USED THERAPEUTICALLY
TO MODULATE CONSCIOUSNESS AND
DISORDERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
EPILEPSY AND THREE GOALS TO TALK
ABOUT THIS MORNING AND FOLLOWING
THEME OF DETECTION AND PULSE AND
MODULATION THROUGH STIMULATION.
STARTING WITH STORY OF A MOUSE
AND MOUSE IN LAB AND THIS IS A
POST DOC THAT PUT THIS PREPRINT
BIOARCHIVE PREPRINT COMING OUT
SOON AND MOUSE ON A WHEEL THAT
IS TRAINED TO WILLIC IN RESPONSE
TO SOUND AND IS MOTIVATED EVERY
TIME IT HEARS THE SOUND AND IF
IT LICKS IN TIME IT CAN RECEIVE
A SUGAR WATER REWARD AND
ATTENTIVE AND HOPING TO HEAR THE
SOUND WHEN IT RESPONDS
APPROPRIATELY IT CAN GET SUGAR
WATER.
AT SAME TIME WE HAVE ELECTRODES
RECORDING ORBITAL -- WE HAVE
CENSORS THAT WE INJECTED INTO
ORBITAL FRONTAL CORTEX TO DETECT
ACETYLCHOLINE IN THIS MOUSE.
MOUSE LICKS TRANSIENT RISE IN
ACETYLLE CHOLINE WE CAN DETECT
IN ORBITAL FRONT TAL CORBITAL F
SEIZURES THESE FOCAL HIPPOCAMPAL
OR TEMPORAL SEIZURES DEPRESS
AROUSAL GLOBALLY CAUSING
INDIVIDUAL MOUSE OR HUMAN TO BE
IN STATE OF DEPRESSED AROUSAL OR
RESPONSIVENESS IN A PERIOD OF
TIME AND HAS A TRANSIENT BURSE
OR PULSE OF SUBCORTICAL -- MOUSE
MISSES RESPONSE WHEN IT IS
EVOKED PULSE OF AROUSAL THAT IS
DEPRESSED DURING SEIZURES THAT
IS A LITTLE PHENOMENON I WANT TO
POINT OUT AND MOUSE HAS TO HEAR
SOUND AND DETECT IT AND HAS
AUGMENTATION WE BELIEVE AND FAS
ILLTORY PULSE AND FOCUSING ON
THAT AND TWO EARLY ORBS EARLY
AND TRANSITIONAL EVENTS
OCCURRING WITH AWARENESS OF
PERCEPTUAL EVENTS THAT WE WILL
TALK ABOUT THIS MORNING AND
THINKING ABOUT TIMELINE OF
CONSCIOUS EVENTS AND MANY PEOPLE
HAVE SORT OF BROUGHT UP VERY
IMPORTANT POINTS THAT IF
SOMETHING OCCURS AT TIME ZERO
AND COULD BE A PERCEPTUAL EVENT
OR SOMETHING THAT WE COULD DO OR
COULD BE A THOUGHT EVEN.
THERE ARE PROCESSES THAT HAPPEN
AROUND THAT TIME THAT WE ARE
INTERESTED IN STUDYING
MECHANISMS OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
IS ALSO THINGS THAT OCCUR
EARLIER AND OCCUR LATER AND VERY
INFLUENTIAL PAPER BY ARROW AND
MALONI WE KNOW ABOUT AND BIYU
CONTRIBUTED TO THINKING OF THIS
AND OTHER FIELDS AND MICHAEL
PITS SHOWING IMPORTANT THINGS
THAT HAPPENS AND SHOWING
CONSEQUENCES DISENTANGLING THAT
RELATED TO REPORT AND THINGS
THAT HAPPEN BEFORE AND AFTER AND
THINGS THAT HAPPEN RIGHT
IMMEDIATELY AT THE TIME OF THE
EVENT AND IMMEDIATELY AFTER AND
FIRST 200 MILLISECONDS TO CREATE
THIS DISTINCTION BETWEEN THINGS
WE ARE OR ARE NOT AWARE OF.
AND, AGAIN, WHAT I WILL FOCUS ON
IS A VERY KIND OF INITIAL STAGE
WHERE BIFURCATION OCCURS AND
DIFFERENT EVENT AND STATES OF
AROUSAL AND VIL LENS, PERHAPS
AND PRIOR HAVE BEEN STUDIED AND
STATES OF OWE SLATION OCCURS AND
THERE IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS
HERE WHICH IS BIFURCATION AND
DETECTION AND PROCESSES THAT
HAPPEN HERE AND WHATEVER THEORY
YOU WANT TO ASCRIBE TO AND
COMBINATION OF THEORIES ARE
IMPORTANT FOR CREATING CONSCIOUS
AWARENESS AND WE CAN SUMMARIZE
THIS.
I DON'T WANT TO INTRODUCE
ANOTHER THEORY BUT SUMMARY OF
THEORIES AND HYPOTHESES THAT I
RECENTLY PUT IN A REVIEW ARTICLE
AND EARLY DETECTION HAS TO
HAPPEN AND SOME NETWORK OR
MECHANISMS THAT CAUSES
BIFURCATION BETWEEN EVENTS THAT
WILL BE CONSCIOUS OR
UNCONSCIOUS.
THIS IS THE OTHER THING I WILL
EMPHASIZE TODAY. I BELIEVE
THERE IS SUBCORTICAL
AUGMENTATION THAT MIGHT PLAY
IMPORTANT ROLE. TRANSIENT.
AGAIN, TO DISTINGUISH FROM STATE
OF NETWORK BEFORE AND STATE OF
AROUSAL AND VIL LENS BEFORE
TRANSIENT SURGE OR PULSE FAS
ILLTORY EVENT THAT OCCURS EARLY
COULD CONTINUE AND BE EARLY OR
LATE INTERACTING WITH CORTICAL
CIRCUITS TO FACILITATE AND
AUGMENT AND PARTICIPATE IN THE
EMERGENCE OF OTHER VERY
IMPORTANT PROCESSES THAT
INCLUDE, YOU KNOW, TURNING
CIRCUITS OFF AND TURNING
CIRCUITS ON AND ALL KINDS OF
IMPORTANT SIGNALING THAT MIGHT
HAPPEN OR BE COMPATIBLE AND
COULD BE COMPATIBLE WITH
DIFFERENT THEORIES AND IIT AND
WORKSPACE AND RECURRENT
PROCESSING, ET CETERA. HIGH
ORDER THEORIES AND THEORIES TO
ASCRIBE TO AND ALL THIS AND
EARLY EVENTS ARE THINGS I WANT
TO EMPHASIZE ON RIGHT NOW AND
FIRST TALKING ABOUT DETECTION
THAT HAS BEEN STUDIED A LOT.
I'M NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS AND
THIS IS GOING BACK VERY FAR.
PEOPLE HAVE LOOKED IN NON-HUMAN
PRIMATES AND COLLEAGUES MAY KNOW
I'M SURE A LOT MORE ABOUT THIS
THAN I DO AND FRONTAL FIELDS OF
EYE ACTIVITY AND LOOKING IN OWL
AND AFIAN MODELS AND SHOWING TO
DETECT THEM AND DETECTAL AREAS
AND MIDBRAIN AND PARIETAL CORTEX
PLAYS A ROLE AND EARLY SIGNALS
OCCURRING VISUAL SIGNALS ALMOST
AS EARLY AS PRIMARY VISUAL
CORTICAL SIGNALS AND LESS DONE
IN HUMANS AND A FEW PAPERS
LOOKING AT VERY EARLY SIGNALS IN
THE AREAS OF THE BRAIN OUTSIDE
OF THE PRIMARY SENSORY CORTICES
AND SHOWING A FEW RECENT STUDIES
FROM OUR GROUP LOOKING AT USING
HUMAN INTERCRANIAL EEG WITH
PATIENT AND FIRST PAPER THIS IS
SAMPLE SIZE AND METAANALYSIS OF
RAM DATA SET THAT IS PUBLICLY
AVAILA
AVAILABLE.
PRESENTED TO PARTICIPANTS
ANALYZING BROADBAND GAMA
ACTIVITY FIRING OF CORTICAL
NEURONS WE LOOKED AT SUCH A
LARGE SAMPLE SIZE AND WERE ABLE
TO GET VERY SENSITIVE SIGNAL
ANALYSIS OF EARLIEST SIGNALS
THAT APPEAR.
WHAT WE SAW IN THIS STUDY, OKAY,
IS THE POSTERIOR MIDDLE FRONTAL
GYRUS IN THE RIGHT HEMISPHERE
AND FRONTAL EYE AREA AND LOOK
THERE IS VERY THIS IS ZERO TO 50
MILLISEC INCREASES IN MEDIAL
FRONTAL CORTEX IN THE RIGHT
HEMISPHERE. THERE IS AN
INCREASE IN THE MEDIAL TEMPORAL
LOBE IN THE RIGHT HEMISPHERE AND
ALONG WE SEE VISUAL CORTICAL
ACTIVATION AND EARLY FUSIFORM
GYRUS ACTIVATION AND INCREASE IN
AREA 37 AND SOMETHING HAPPENED
TO PROJECTION HERE. THANK YOU.
THIS IS ONE STUDY.
DID SOMETHING DISCONNECT?
WE -- THANK YOU.
I WILL TALK -- I WILL CONTINUE
TO TALK. I WILL SUMMARIZE THE
NEXT SLIDE.
IT WAS DONE BY ANOTHER STUDENT
IN ANOTHER POST DOC IN THE LAB.
IT SHOWS A SIMILAR EARLY SIGNALS
IN VISUAL CORTEX AND FUSIFORM
GYRUS WITH A DIFFERENT VISUAL
STIMULUS AND IN THIS CASE IT
SHOWS VERY EARLY WITHIN 30 TO 60
MILLISECONDS WE SEE ACTIVITY
INCREASES, AGAIN, IN FRONTAL
CORTICAL AREAS SLIGHTLY
DIFFERENT FROM THESE AREAS AND
SEE LEFT CORTICAL ACTIVATION AND
HIPPOCAMPAL ACTIVATION AND IN
FUSIFORM GYRUS AND IN OTHER
REGIONS AND CONTINUE TO DESCRIBE
IN SLIDES AND GOING THROUGH THIS
QUICKLY WHEN WE GET THE -- THIS
IS GOOD IMAGERY AND WHOEVER IS
INTERESTED IN IMAGERY THIS IS A
GOOD EXERCISE IN CONSCIOUS
MENTAL IMAGERY AND IF YOU CAN
IMAGINE THE NEXT SLIDE THAT WILL
BE WHERE WE START TO TALK ABOUT
THESE.
THE RESULTS I HAVE BEEN TALKING
ABOUT SO FAR ARE JUST VISUAL
PERCEPTION THAT ARE NO THE
SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR
CONSCIOUS VERSUS UNCONSCIOUS
PERCEPTIONS ASSUMING THAT PEOPLE
ARE CONSCIOUS AND STIMULI ARE
OBVIOUS AND EASY TO SEE AND NEXT
STUDIES WE WILL TALK ABOUT ARE
HERE WE GO, PERFECT TIME. THIS
IS THE STUDY AND CORTICAL
ACTIVATION STUDY FROM THE OTHER
ONES YOU CAN SEE. THIS IS THE
VISUAL. STILL NOT THERE. OKAY.
IMAGINE, PLEASE, IF YOU WOULD.
NOW, WE ARE A STUDY OF FACE
PERCEPTION WHERE THE FACE IS
TIGHT TREATED TO THE 50%
THRESHOLD OF DETECTION AND WENDY
HERMAN GRAD STUDENT IN LAB
DEVELOPED THIS TEST USING
INTRACRANIAL EEG -- VISUAL
CORTEX AND WE DIDN'T EMPHASIZE
IN THAT PAPER BUT THERE IN THE
RESULTS IS VERY EARLY WITHIN THE
TEMPORAL RESOLUTION IS NOT QUITE
AS GOOD. LOWER SAMPLE SIZE IS 9
PATIENTS. 150 MILLISECONDS IS
ABLE TO SEE IN LEFT FRONTAL EYE
FIELDS AND, AGAIN, IN FUSIFORM
GYRUS OF COURSE AND LEFT FRONTAL
EYE FIELDS WITH 150 MILLISECONDS
THERE FOR PERCEIVED BUT NOT FOR
NOT PERCEIVED VISUAL STIMULI
THAT IS EARLY IN AREAS OUTSIDE
OF PRIMARY CORTICES AND SLIGHTLY
DIFFERENT AREAS WE SEE FOR
DIFFERENT STIMULI AND PARADIGMS
AND NETWORK SEEMING TO SERVE
THIS VERY EARLY DETECTION
BIFURCATION FUNCTION AND FINALLY
RECENTLY THIS IS ON BIOARCHIVE
KATE WILL HOPEFULLY HAVE
SOMETHING AND PICTURE ANOTHER
BEAUTIFUL SET OF BRAINS WITH
COLORS ON THEM AND YOU CAN SEE
THAT WITH AUDITORY AND AUDITORY
TASK, WE NOW SEE THAT THE --
AGAIN, INTERESTING. THE RIGHT
MIDDLE POSTERIOR FRONTAL GYRUS
WITH AUDITORY TASK FRONTAL EYE
FIELDS SHOW SOMEBODY IS
ADVANCING MY SLIDES AND THEY ARE
NOT APPEARING THERE AND SEE
AGAIN FRONTAL EYE FIELDS
PROMINENT EARLY SIGNAL IN 100
MILLISECONDS OF STIMULUS THERE
FOR PERCEIVED STIMULI NOT THERE
FOR NOT PERCEIVED AUDITORY
STIMULI AND EARLY DETECTION
NETWORK TO SUMMARIZE YOU CAN SEE
WITH HUMAN INTRAKRAINIAL EEG
WITH MULTIPLE STUDIES CONVERGING
ON NETWORK OF DIFFERENT AREAS
APPEARING IN DIFFERENT REGIONS
OF FRONTAL CORTEX MEDIAL
TEMPORAL AND SOME NOT OTHERS AND
PRIMARY AUDITORY VISUAL CORTICES
IN ONSET OF THE STIMULUS.
YES?
>> YEAH. [TOO FAR FROM MIC TO
HEAR].
>> SURE. I WILL KEEP TALKING GO
ON ZOOM AND SOMEONE GIVING HIGH
SIGN I WILL QUICKLY GO BACK ON
SLIDES AGAIN.
>> IF YOU WANT TO SEE SLIDES,
LOG IN AND QUIET YOUR ZOOM SO
YOU WILL BE ABLE TO SEE IT.
>> PLEASE MUTE SO WE DON'T HAVE
REVERBERATIONS AROUND THE ROOM.
COULD BE FUN BUT A LITTLE
DISTRACTING.
ALL RIGHT. I HAVE COVERED THE
DETECT CIRCUIT THAT I WANTED TO
TALK ABOUT TODAY.
AND IN PERCEPTION OF VISUAL AND
AUDITORY STIMULI.
I WILL NOW SHIFT TO TALKING
ABOUT THE PULSE. OKAY?
THE PULSE I HAVE BEEN SAYING
THERE IS A TRANSIENT DYNAMIC
SURGE -- MODULATING PERCEPTUAL
AWARENESS AND IDEA WE HEARD WE
HEARD BEAUTIFUL SET OF TALKS
FROM PEOPLE THAT STUDY
ANESTHESIA ABOUT STATES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND ROLE OF THE
SUBCORTICAL AROUSAL CIRCUITS YOU
KNOW WHAT WE HEARD ABOUT BREMER
AND DR. BROWN ABOUT HOW THESE
KIND OF BACK NEARLY 100 YEARS
AGO PEOPLE WERE AWARE THAT
SUBCORTICAL CIRCUITS WERE
IMPORTANT FOR AROUSAL AND
SIMULATION STUDIES FROM MORUZZI
AND MAGUN I WILL ZIP BACK
QUICKLY AND GO THROUGH THEM
QUICKLY SO WE HAVE A CHANCE TO
NOT JUST HEAR ABOUT BUT
VISUALIZE CIRCUITS.
AGAIN, THIS IS PAPER NO. 1.
KWON ET AL AND SHOWING FRONTAL
CORTICAL CIRCUIT WITH VISUAL
DETECTION AND ANOTHER PAPER
PEOPLE LOOK AT FRONTAL CORTEX.
SAY AGAIN?
SOMEBODY SAID MUTE. OKAY.
GREAT. FUN, FUN WITH VISUAL AND
AUDITORY PERCEPTION; RIGHT?
THERE WE GO.
OKAY THIS IS HERMAN PAPER
SHOWING EARLY FRONTAL ACTIVITY
FOCUS IN LEFT CORTEX SEEING
EARLY SIGNALS WITH PERCEIVED
VERSUS NOT PERCEIVED AND
AUDITORY PERCEIVED VERSUS NOT
PERCEIVED FRONTAL CATEGORY AND
BIFURCATION CONSCIOUS VERSUS NOT
CONSCIOUS EVENTS PULSE YES.
>> CHOICE OF TAKING 3 TO 5
MINUTES BRA EBBING TO FIX THIS
ISSUE?
>> THAT IS FINE. THANK YOU.
>> ALL RIGHT. THANK YOUEAK TO ?
>> THAT IS FINE. THANK YOU.
>> ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU.
>> WE WILL TAKE A BREAK AND
THERE WILL BE A SPECIAL
ANNOUNCEMENT FROM PROFESSOR BRAD
EDITOR AND CHIEF OF GENERAL OF
NEUROCOGNITIVE SCIENCE.
>> SO AT -- DR. HOOD IS A
CONSULTING EDITOR AT GENERAL AND
COGNITIVE NEUROSCIENCE. AS THIS
CONFERENCE WAS BEING ORGANIZED
SHE APPROACHED ME ABOUT THE IDEA
OF PUTTING TOGETHER A SPECIAL
FOCUS ON THEME OF THIS MEETING
AND WOW HAVE RECEIVED AN E-MAIL
ABOUT THIS. SHE IS BOSSING THIS
AND INFORMED ME TODAY RATHER
THAN JULY FIRST IS AUGUST 1ST
AND DATE BY WHICH WE WOULD LAKE
TO KNOW YOU ARE PLANNING TO
SUBMIT AND SHE WILL DISTRIBUTE
THE E-MAIL THAT IS JCOG
NEURO@GMAIL.COM. AND WHAT DID
YOU OR WE SAY? OCTOBER 31ST?
END OF OCTOBER IS DEADLINE WE
ARE SHOOTING FOR FOR SUBMISSIONS
THAT COULD BE AN EMPIRICAL PAPER
AND SORT OF A FULL SPECTRUM
REVIEW OR BRIEF PERSPECTIVE
FORMAT THAT IS YOU KNOW MORE OF
AN OPINION PIECE YOU ARE NOT
EXPECTED TO COMPREHENSIVELY
REVIEW ENTIRE LITERATURE AND IF
YOU HAVE SPECIFIC QUESTIONS
ABOUT HOW TO DO IT, YOU CAN
EITHER USE THIS JCOG NEURO@GMAIL
ADDRESS OR E-MAIL ME
POSTLE.WISC.EDU AT WISCONSIN AND
BIYU WHO IS A CONSULTING EDITOR
AT THE JOURNAL AND WILL BOSS
THIS PROCESS.
WE LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING LOTS
OF GOOD CONTRIBUTIONS TO THIS
SPECIAL FOCUS.
>> I CAN SEND E-MAIL OUT AGAIN
THE ORIGINAL ONE AND IF YOU
DON'T GET AN E-MAIL --
>> ACTUALLY, THEY ARE ASKING TO
TAKE A BREAK AND GO TO COFFEE
SECTION. THEY NEED TO BRING A
LADDER AND FIX THE PROJECTOR.
THANK YOU.
[BRE
[BREAK].
>> PLEASE -- SO LET'S GET --
>> YES.
>> ALL RIGHT.
>> THIS ONE IS THE WIRELESS
SIGNAL GOING. SHOULD WE OPEN IT
OR NOT.
>> IT WILL BE OKAY.
>> YEAH.
>> OKAY.
WE ARE BACK.
JUST AGAIN TO RECAP AND SUM UP
AND CHRISTOF AND I HAD
PRODUCTIVE CONVERSATIONS DURING
THE BREAK AND DON'T WANT TO GET
TOO STUCK ON THE EXACT TIMING
DETECTION OF THE SIGNAL. IT IS
THERE WHETHER IFFIST OR 100MS.
I DON'T THINK THAT IS -- IT IS
IMPORTANT TO SORT THAT OUT AND
METHODS ARE IN OUR PAPER IF
ANYONE IS CURIOUS.
THERE COULD ALWAYS BE ISSUES
THAT WE WEREN'T AWARE OF THAT
WOULD INFLUENCE TIMING A BIT AND
POINTING OUT BIOPHYSICALLY IT IS
CHALLENGING TO GET SIGNALS TO IT
FAST AND THERE IS DATA THERE AND
PRIMATES AND HUMANS SHOWING FAST
-- 50 MILLISECONDS OR 100
MILLISECONDS ARE EARLY SIGNALS
WE ARE SEEING IN MULTIPLE
DIFFERENT TASKS WITH DETECTION
OF THESE PERCEPTUAL SIGNALS AND
THERE ARE THEREFORE PERCEIVED
AND NOT PERCEIVED AND TO QUALIFY
BY SAYING THESE ARE ALL TASK
RELATED WITH EXCEPTION OF THE
FIRST ONE AND FIRST PARADIGM
THESE ARE TASK RELATED FOR THE
AWARENESS TASKS.
THERE ARE TASKS INVOLVED AND
TASKS ACTIVITIES OCCUR MUCH
LATER AND INTERESTING AND
FRUITFUL THOUGHT FOR ONGOING
DISCUSSION.
I WILL SHIFT NOW TO TALK ABOUT
THIS PULSE.
IT IS, I THINK, YOU KNOW,
INTERESTING.
NOT EMPHASIZED VERY MUCH IN
STUDYING CONSCIOUSNESS IN
PERCEPTUAL AWARENESS OR
AWARENESS OF INACTION OR OF
THOUGHTS.
IDEA IS, AGAIN, EARLY AND AGAIN
I WON'T GET STUCK TOO MUCH IN
TIMING AND THIS OCCURS EARLY AND
SHOULD BE EARLY EVENT THAT COULD
OCCUR ALSO AND CONTIGUOUSLY IN
TIME WITH LATER EVENTS AND
AUGMENT THEM AND INTERACT WITH
CORTICAL SIGNALS AND FAS ILLTORY
-- NEUROTRANSMITTERS IN BRAIN
STEM AND PONS AND BASAL AND
FOREBRAIN IMPORTANT IN
AUGMENTING CONSCIOUS EVENTS AND
TALKING ABOUT EVIDENCE FOR THIS
AND NOW SLIDES ARE NOT
ADVANCING.
OKAY.
THANK YOU!
WE WILL LEAVE IT HERE AND I WILL
CONTINUE.
NO. WE WILL GET IT.
VERY QUICKLY AND LOTS OF
PREVIOUS WORK SHOWING SUSTAINED
STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS DEPEND
CRITICALLY ON SUBCORTICAL
AROUSAL SYSTEMS GOING BACK TO A
CENTURY AND NEUROSTIMULATION
STUDIES AND WE STIMULATED
INTRALAMBITIER REGIONS OF
THALAMUS AND IN PATIENTS
CHRONICALLY IMPLANTING
ELECTRODES AND GETTING CORTICAL
FIZZ -- THIS IS CENTRA LATERAL
NUCLEUS AND LOCATIONS OF
CATHODES AND ANODES AND
STIMULATED WITH DIFFERENT
INTENSITY LEVELS AND FOUND --
OKAY. HOW DO I ADVANCE THE
SLIDES?
CLICK ON THIS SLIDE. THANK YOU.
WE FOUND THIS IS INCREASES IN
BROADBAND ACTIVITY IN HIGHER
FREQUENCY RANGES AND DECREASES
IN LOWER FREQUENCY ACTIVITY
INCREASING WITH CURRENT LEVEL
PRODUCING CORTICAL PHYSIOLOGICAL
AROUSAL AND SHOWING LATER DATA
SHOWING AROUSAL FROM SLEEP ALSO
WITH DIFFERENT TYPE OF
STIMULATION.
>> WHAT ABOUT EVENTS?
NOT MANY STUDIES HAVE LOOKED AT
FMRI SIGNALS IN SUBCORTICAL
AREAS WITH CONSCIOUS EVENTS AND
PERCEPTUAL STUDIES AND LOTS HAS
TO DO WITH FACT AND SHOWING
INTERESTING SIGNALS OCCURRING IN
MIDBRAIN AND IN THALAMUS THAT
HAVE A VERY INCREASE AND
DECREASE THAT DON'T FIT CANON
CAL HRS AND ARE MISSED IN FMRI
STUDIES WHERE SIGNALS ARE CLOSE
TOGETHER IN TIME AND IF SIGNALS
ARE FAR APART FROM EACH OTHER
AND USING SPECIAL ANALYSIS
METHODS YOU CAN PICK UP THESE
SIGNALS AND ONE STUDY WE DID
WITH VISUAL PERCEPTION AND A FEW
DIFFERENT TASKS AND 408
PARTICIPANTS TO DO THIS ONE AND
CONJUNCTION ANALYSIS WITH SHARED
NETWORK SHOWING TRANSIENT VERY
EARLY INCREASE IN MIDBRAIN AND
INTRA -- AND IN SALIENCE NETWORK
AND FMRI AND LOTS OF THESE WILL
BE BLURRED TOGETHER IN TIME AND
EMPHASIZING AGAIN THERE IS A
PULSE OF FMRI SIGNAL IN
SUBCORTICAL AREAS WITH VISUAL
PERCEPTION OR ATTENTION TASKS
AND AGAIN IS SHOWING MORE ABOUT
MIDBRAIN AND ROIS IN MIDBRAIN
AND IN THALAMUS SHOWING VERY
EARLY AND FAST FOR FMRI AND
TRANSIENT IS KEY AND COMES DOWN
QUICKLY AND COULD BE MISSED WITH
ANALYSIS DONE WITH THIS AND HRI
PEAKS AT 6 SECONDS AND THIS
PEAKS AT 3 OR 4 SECONDS AFTER
ONSET AND POST DOC IN LAB IS
COMPLETING A NICE STUDY NOW
GOING ON HUMAN CONNECTOME
PROJECT AND TAKING DATA SHE
COULD FIND FROM DIFFERENT SENSE
YRY MODALITIES THAT ARE NOT
AWARENESS STUDIES BUT ATTENTION
STUDIES FOR THE MOST PART AND
PEOPLE ARE INTENDING TO VISUAL
AND AUDITORY AND TASTE OR
TACTILE STIMULI THAT IS A TOTAL
OF OVER 1500 PARTICIPANTS AND
SHE DID A MASSIVE CONJUNCTION
ANALYSIS OF DIFFERENT TASKS
LOOKING AT SUBCORTICAL AREAS
WHAT DO THEY SHARE IN COMMON?
WE SAW DIFFERENT ACTIVITY IN
CORTEX VISUAL AND DIFFERENT
ACTIVITY FOR AUDITORY AND
TACTILE AND AREAS YOU WOULD
EXPECT FOR CORTICAL AREAS
INVOLVED IN PERCEPTUAL TASKS AND
LOOKING IN CORTICAL AREAS AND
WHAT DO THEY SHARE IN COMMON?
THIS IS WHAT SHE FOUND? THIS
IS TWO SECONDS AND IS
PERMUTATION CLUSTER-BASED
STATISTICS LOOKING AT CHANGE IN
THE SIGNAL OVER TIME AND TWO
SECONDS DON'T DETECT ANYTHING
QUITE YET AND HERE EARLIEST
SIGNAL CHANGES WE SEE BILATERAL
MIDBRAIN RETICULAR FORMATION
SEEING HERE AND CENTRAL THALAMIC
REGIONS AND IS FOUR SECONDS
AFTER STIMULUS ONSET ON FMRI
THAT IS EARLY AND IF YOU LOOK AT
6 SECONDS AND LOOK AT MIDBRAIN
SIGNAL AND THE SIGNAL HAS
ALREADY GONE DOWN AND THALAMUS
PERSISTS AND CONTINUES TO GO UP
AND REMAINS AND ALL THE SIGNALS
GO AWAY BY 8 SECONDS AND SIGNALS
ARE IN OTHER PLACES TOO. THIS
IS HIGHLY THRESHOLD SHOWING MOST
CONSISTENT AND MOST KIND OF
HIGHEST AMPLITUDE AND
SUBCORTICAL SIGNALS WE SEE IN
OVER FIFTEEN 00 PARTICIPANTS IN,
YOU KNOW, VISION, HEARING, TOUCH
AND TASTE AND DIDN'T FIND A GOOD
DATA SET TO USE FOR OLFACTION WE
WOULD LIKE TO INCLUDE BUT
HAVEN'T FOUND A GOOD ONE AND IF
YOU FIND A GOOD DATA SET, PLEASE
LET US KNOW. KRONEMER WHO IS
HERE WAS A GRAD STUDENT IN LAB
AND DID HEROIC STUDY AND VERY
LARGE SAMPLE SIZE DATA AND NOW
IS POST DOC AT NIH AND ONE OF
THE ORGANIZERS OF THE MEETING.
THANK YOU, SHARIF. DID A
FANTASTIC STUDY AND FMRI DATA IN
A MOMENT WILL SHOW AND
CHRONICALLY IMPLANTED DEVICES
USING PERCEPTUAL AWARENESS TASK
WITH VISUAL OF FACE TIGHT
TREATED TO 50% PERCEPTION
THRESHOLD COMPARING ERPS FOR
FACES PEOPLE PERCEIVED OR DIDN'T
PERCEIVE AND FOUND ERP THALAMIC
AWARENESS POTENTIAL OR TAP AND
NICE BIG ERP THAT APPEARS FOR
FACES THAT ARE PERCEIVED AND NOT
PERCEIVED FACES IT IS NOT THERE
AND IS A VERY CLEAR DISTINCTION
FOR PERCEIVED VERSUS NOT
PERCEIVED THAT IS BIPHASIC AND
IS EARLIER THAN P3 AND LATER
THAN VAN AND N2. THIS IS THE
EVENT AND IT IS LOCALIZED AND
YOU CAN SEE RED ELECTRODE
CONTACTS AND PURPLE ELECTRODE
CONTACTS IS WHERE ERP OCCURS IN
CENTRAL THAT'LL AMIN TRA LAMB
ETTER REGION THAT WE SEE MOST
PROMINENTLY THIS INTERESTING ERP
THAT IS ASSOCIATED WITH
PERCEIVED VISUAL STIMULI THAT IS
ALSO FOUND IN ONE PATIENT ONLY
AND FOUND IN ONE PATIENT FOR A
VERY SIMILAR TASK WITH AUDITORY
PERCEPTUAL AWARENESS AND IS NOT
-- WE THINK NOT JUST SPECIFIC TO
VISUAL AND COULD BE A GENERAL
PURPOSE, AGAIN, SIGNAL THAT WE
BELIEVE THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT
FOR AUGMENTING PERCEPTUAL
AWARENESS AND AUDITORY TASK AND
PERCEPTUAL THRESHOLD THAT WE SAW
ERP AND THOMAS WHO IS HERE AND
POSTER IS IN THE NEXT ROOM IS
STIMULATING WITH TIME STIMULI
COINCIDING WITH VISUAL THRESHOLD
STIMULI TO SEE IF WE CAN
MODULATE PERCEPTUAL AWARENESS BY
STIMULATING AT TIME OF THE
STIMULUS OR AT OTHER TIMES AND
SO FAR LOOKS PROMISING THAT
THERE MIGHT BE MODULATION THAT
WE GET.
OKAY. SORRY I WILL MAKE MY WAY
THROUGH THE REST OF THE SLIDES
QUICKLY AS I CAN. THANK YOU.
THIS IS SHARIF'S FMRI DATA
SHOWING SIGNAL IN THE MIDBRAIN
AND SIGNAL IN THE THALAMUS WE
GET WITH VISUAL PERCEPTION DOES
NOT DEPEND ON REPORT, TASK
REREPORT. DEVELOPED A BEAUTIFUL
METHOD FOR ELIMINATING TASK
REPORT USING MEASUREMENTS AND
MACHINE LEARNING ON THE EYE
MOVEMENTS.
HERE, YOU SEE THEIN DEPENDENT
MIDBRAIN AND THALAMIC SIGNALS.
BILL'S GROUP HAS DONE A NICE
STUDY OF RECOGNITION AWARENESS
WHERE THEY SEE ALSO VERY SIMILAR
RESULTS IN THE MID-BRAIN
THALAMUS AND SUBCORTICAL AREAS
ASSOCIATED WITH VISUAL
RECOGNITION.
SO, BACK TO THE -- BACK TO THE
SEIZURES IN THE ANIMAL MODEL AND
WHAT HAPPENS DURING FOCAL
HIPPOCAMPAL SEIZURES?
THIS IS RAT DATA YOU NOW AND IF
YOU LOOK AT A RAT AND LOOK AT
SAME AREAS, THE MIDBRAIN AND THE
THALAMUS THAT IS TRANSIENTLY
ACTIVATED DURING PERCEPTUAL
AWARENESS IS A FOCAL LIMBIC
SEIZURE AND BOLD FMRI. BLUE
MEANS IT IS TURNED OFF. OKAY?
SO, THE THALAMUS AND MID-BRAIN
ARE DEPRESSED OR INHIBITED
DURING THIS HIPPOCAMPAL SEIZURE
AND HIPPOCAMPUS IS SHOWING
ACTIVITY FROM THE SEIZURE AND
CORTEX IS ALSO SUPPRESSED AND
CORTEX GETS SHUT OFF AND PUT
INTO A SLEEP-LIKE STATE DURING
HIPPOCAMPUS AND SUSTAINED
AROUSAL IS EFFECTED AND
BEGINNING -- THEY ARE FIRING IS
SUPPRESSED DURING SEIZURES AND
WILL SKIP QUICKLY AND NOT COLON
URGIC AND -- ARE INHIBITED
DURING THE SEIZURE CAN WE DO
ANYTHING ABOUT THIS THERAPIUTE
CAL WILL I AND TALKING ABOUT
NEUROSTIMULATION AND THESE ARE
RATS THAT ARE EXPLORING CAGES
NORMALLY BEFORE SEIZURES OCCUR
THAT WILL HAVE SEIZURES INDUCED
BY BRIEF ELECTRICAL SHOCK TO THE
HIPPOCAMPUS AND WHEN IT OCCURS
THEY FREEZE AND THEIR BRAIN STEM
IS INHIBITED AND THALAMUS IS
INHIBITED AND CORTEX SLOW-WAVING
AND THIS ANIMAL ON RIGHT IS
RECEIVING THERAPEUTIC
STIMULATION TO SUBCORTICAL
AROUSAL SYSTEMS.
THIS ANIMAL IS NOT.
DESPITE FACT THAT ANIMAL IS
CONTINUING TO HAVE A SEIZURE IN
THE HIPPOCAMPUS, CORTEX IS NOW
AWAKE AND ANIMAL IS ABLE TO
EXPLORE CAGE NORMALLY DESPITE
FACT THAT SEIZURES HAPPENED AND
LOOK AT THIS AND YOU KNOW
PATIENTS OUT THERE HAVE EPILEPSY
AND SEIZURES AND TRY TO TREAT
WITH MEDICATIONS AND SURGERY
WHEN WE CAN AND PATIENTS
CONTINUE TO HAVE FOCAL AND
COMPLEX AWARANCE AND TEMPORAL LO
EBB AND NO TREATMENT NOW TAKES
AWAY ALL SEIZURES IF WE PUT A
NEUROSTIMULATOR INTO THEM AND
TRY TO INTERRUPT SEIZURES LIKE
DEFIBRILLATOR DEVICE USED
CLINICALLY TO INTERRUPT SEIZURES
REDUCING SEIZURES BUT HAVE
SEIZURES WITH IMPAIRED
CONSCIOUSNESS AND CAN WE DO FOR
PATIENTS TO HELP THEM AS A
SECOND TYPE OF TREATMENT TRY TO
STOP SEIZURES IF CAN'T HELP THEM
STIMULATE AREAS RESTORING
CONSCIOUSNESS PROCEDURES BY
IMPROVING AROUSAL AND CLINICAL
TRIAL, IT IS A BRAIN INITIATIVE
STUDY AT YALE AND DARTMOUTH AT
MAYO AND CENTRAL SITE AND
STIMULATION FOR THALAMUS AROUSAL
FOR RESTORAL -- IF PEOPLE HAVE
BILATERAL -- WE IMPLANT
PROCEDURES AND DETECT SEIZURES
TRYING TO INTERRUPT THEM WITH
THERAPY STIMULATING THE HIPPOCAM
PIE. IF IT WORKS, GREAT. WE
HAVE TWO MORE ELECTRODES IN THE
THALAMUS AND ALGORITHM ON DEVICE
IF SEIZURE IS INTERRUPTED,
GREAT. IF NOT INTERRUPTED BY
HIPPOCAMPAL STIMULATION WE
STIMULATE THALAMUS TO PRODUCE
AROUSAL AND RESTORE RESPONSIVE
BEHAVIOR DURING SEIZURES AND
UNILATERAL DO SOMETHING SIMILAR
AND INTERESTING RESULTS THAT YOU
SEE IN THE MACAQUE THIS IS A
HUMAN VERSION OF THIS AND THIS
IS FIVE PATIENTS STIMULATING
SAME REGION THAT YURI SHOWED
CENTURY LATERAL NUCLEUS AND SLOW
STEEP AND N1 AND N2 WAKING SLEEP
-- IT IS AMAZING PEOPLE LIKE ON
AND OFF SWITCH AND WATCHING
PEOPLE DURING THIS IF IN DEEP
SLEEP AND OPEN EYES AND LOOK
AROUND AND ASK THEM AFTERWARDS
NEXT MORNING OR LATER WHAT
HAPPENED? I FELT LIKE WAKING UP
AND TURN OFF SIMULATION AND THEY
GO BACK TO SLEEP AGAIN.
INCREDIBLE. EEG ACTIVITY
INCREASED IN FAST WAVE ACTIVITY
AND DECREASE IN SLOW WAVE
ACTIVITY OCCURRING DURING
STIMULATION AND WE HAD TWO
PATIENTS EXITING RANDOMIZED
PHASE AND THREE MORE PATIENTS
WAITING TO GET RESULTS AND
BEHAVIORAL DATA RESULTS --
BLUETOOTH TO IMPLANTED DEVICE
AND WHEN HAVING A SEIZURE ASKS
THEM QUESTIONS AND COMMANDS AND
VERBAL AND NON-VERBAL TESTING
PUSHING BUTTON ON FACE WATCH AND
RESPOND TO QUESTIONS DURING
COMMANDS DURING AND AFTER
PROCEDURES AND ONE PATIENT HAD
SIGNIFICANT BENEFICIAL EFFECT OF
THE STIMULATION DURING SEIZURES
AND HERE WE DO WE ALTERNATE
WITHIN PATIENT RANDOMLY AND
BLINDED WHETHER GETTING
THERAPEUTIC OR SHAM STIMULATION
AND THERAPEUTIC STIMULATION
EARLY IN THE SEIZURE YOU GET
SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT OVERALL
STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT WHERE
PERSON IS IMPAIRED AND MEMORY OF
EVENT AFTERWARDS IS FACILITATED
AND POST DOC HERE IN THE
AUDIENCE THAT PROVIDED US WITH
DATA THAT IS BEAUTIFUL SHOWS US
BENEFICIAL EFFECTS OF CENTRAL
LATERAL STIMULATION DURING
SEIZURES AND IMPROVING
CONSCIOUSNESS.
TO SUMMARIZE, WE TALKED ABOUT
THIS EARLY DETECTION NETWORK AND
DETAILS NEED TO BE WORKED OUT
AND NEED MORE WORK ON THIS AND
IS INTERESTING AND IMPORTANT
QUESTION TO ASK WHERE DOES
BIFURCATION OCCUR AND HOW DOES
IT OCCUR THAT DISTINGUISHES
EVENTS WE ARE OR ARE NOT
CONSCIOUSNESS AND SUBSEQUENT AND
VERY IMPORTANT THINGS HAPPEN IN
THE BRAIN TO FULLY FORM THAT
CONSCIOUS EVENT AND IS SOMETHING
EARLY THAT HAPPENS THAT MAKES
INITIAL DECISION THAT I THINK
BARES FURTHER INVESTIGATION AND
OUR STUDIES SO FAR SHOWED MAYBE
THERE IS A KIND OF INTERESTING
NETWORK INCLUDING MULTIPLE AREAS
INCLUDING FRONTAL CORTEX AND
MEDIAL TEMPORAL LOBE AND
INCLUDING IN ONE CASE AT LEAST
AREA 37 AND OCCIPITAL CORTEX
THAT MIGHT BE IMPORTANT FOR
SIGNAL DETECTION AND THERE IS
EVIDENCE THAT I SHOWED HOPEFULLY
FROM CONVERGING DIFFERENT
SOURCES INCLUDING FMRI AND MANY
DIFFERENT MODALITIES AND VISION
AND AUDITION TACTILE AND TASTE
AND INCLUDING SOME
ELECTROPHYSIOLOGY THAT SUGGESTS
-- FINALLY BY STIMULATING SAME
SUBCORTICAL AREAS LOOKING AT
MODULATION DURING SPLEEP AND
HOPEFULLY I SHOULD HAVE
MENTIONED OF COURSE THAT THIS
WAS BASED ON WORK BY NICO AND
COLLEAGUES WERE COLLABORATING
WITH THEM THAT IS EXTENSION OF
WORK WITH CONSCIOUSNESS
STIMULATING SAME AREAS OF THE
BRAIN AND THANKS VERY MUCH AND
WANT TO THANK SUPPORTERS.
LAB MEMBERS AND -- OKAY. SURE.
YES?
>> ONE SHORT QUESTION.
>> FIRST, I WANT TO COMMEND YOU
FOR YOUR COURAGE UNDER
EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES
PRESENTING THIS TALK. WELL
DONE. QUESTION I HAVE IS ABOUT
TIMING AND ONE THING THAT IS
PUZZLING IS THAT TAP THAT SHARIF
SHOWED IS TAKING PLACE IN 200MS
AND TALKING ABOUT PREFRONTAL
ACTIVATION EARLY ON IN 150MS
RANGE AND CAN YOU TELL WHAT IS
GOING ON IN TIMING AND HOW YOU
WOULD TACKLE THAT PROBLEM.
>> JURY IS OUT ON THE TIMING AND
THIS DATA SHOWS IN THE THALAMUS,
RIGHT?
OKAY. THIS IS BROADBAND GAMA
ACTIVITY AND THERE IS SIGNAL
WITHIN 100MS AND EARLIER IN THE
CORTEX DETECTION AND VERY SOON
AFTERWOIRDS AUGMENTATION IS
COMING FROM SUBCORTICAL SYSTEMS
AND TIMING WITH ERPS AND WHAT IT
MEANS WITH NORMAL ACTIVITY IN
AROUSAL CIRCUIT NEEDS TO BE
INVESTIGATED AND DON'T KNOW AND
IMPORTANT QUESTION.
>> THANK YOU FOR THIS WONDERFUL
TALK AND WANT TO GET BACK TO MY
INTEREST IN THE DISTINCTION
BETWEEN SALIENCE AND
PHENOMENOLOGY AT COLLIER AND
THINKING ABOUT THE CASE WHERE
YOU DO THALAMIC STIMULATION AND
YOU MENTIONED IT WAS POTENTIALLY
POSSIBLE TO COMBINE IT WITH AN
ACTUAL SENSORY STIMULATION.
>> YES.
>> WHAT WILL YOU PREDICT WILL
HAPPEN IN THAT CASE?
WILL YOU PREDICT THAT THE
EXPERIENCE WOULD BE MORE SALIENT
AND HAVE SAME QUALITY OR PREDICT
THAT THALAMIC STIMULATION ALSO
CHANGES QUALITY?
>> YEAH. GREAT QUESTION.
THOMAS WOULD BE -- HE HAS DONE
THIS. HE WOULD BE BEST PERSON
TO TALK TO MAYBE AT BREAK AND
HAS A POSTER ABOUT THIS AND IN
INTEREST OF TIME I WILL MAYBE
MOVE ON.
THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.
>> OKAY. SO, NEXT SPEAKER IS
DR. MASIMINI -- HE IS PROFESSOR
OF PHYSIOLOGY AT UNIVERSITY OF
MILAN AND FELLOW CANADIAN
INSTITUTE OF ADVANCED RESEARCH
AND WORKING WITH LEGENDARY
[INDISCERNIBLE] IN CANADA. AND
THEN AT UNIVERSITY OF WISCONSIN
WITH OUR DEAR GIULIO. HIS WORK
SPANS FOR -- HE USES
INTRACELLULAR ELECTROPHYSIOLOGY
AND EEG AND TMSE.
AND IMAGING AND HAS PUBLISHED --
THE SECOND PART I WILL TRY TO
DIG DEEPER INTO THE BRAIN AND TO
UNDERSTAND MECHANISM LOSS AND
RECOVERY COMPLEXITY AND HERE
WOULD CONNECT TO MANY THINGS
SAID BEFORE LIKE EMERY AND MANY
OTHERS ABOUT THIS BASIC NEURONAL
PATTERN AND -- INJURY AND GOLD
STANDARD IS BEHAVIORAL AND SCALE
AND IT WORKS.
IT IS USEFUL AND THIS
STRATIFICATION BASED ON THESE
CONSCIOUS BEHAVIORAL ASSESSMENT
IS VERY USEFUL AND TRAJECTORY
PATIENTS FAMILIES AND CAREGIVERS
WE KNOW AND NEED TO REMEMBER
EVERY TIME IS BASED ON BEHAVIOR
AND WE KNOW RESPONSIVENESS IS
NOT UNCONSCIOUS AND IS
FUNDAMENTALLY THE PROBLEM AND
WILL BE SHORT HERE.
THIS CAN BE THE CASE AFTER
BRINGING INJURY AND EXECUTIVE
FUNCTIONS AND MOTOR FUNCTIONS
AND IMPAIRED BECAUSE OF SENSORY
CONNECTION AND IMPAIRMENT AND
SENSORY PROCESSING AND USING
EXTREME CASE OF BRAIN THAT IS
LARGELY DISCONNECTED FROM
EXTERNAL ENVIRONMENT AND MAYBE
TEMPORARILY IS NOT A THOUGHT
EXPERIMENT IN BRAIN INJURY AND
HAPPENING IN FRONTAL LESIONS
THAT ARE IMPAIRING EXECUTIVE
NETWORKS AND I WILL SHOW A CASE.
LESIONS WITHOUT IMPAIRED
LANGUAGE AND MAYBE BRAIN STEM
LESION BARING SENSORY INPUT AND
MOTOR OUTPUT IN ALL COMBINATIONS
THAT CAN REALLY HAPPEN. IN THE
END, POSSIBILITY OF AN ISLAND OF
AWARENESS THAT IS NOT ACCESSIBLE
TO EXTREME PERSPECTIVE OF
SENSORY STIMULATION AND
OBSERVATIONAL BEHAVIORAL AND
SENSORY STIMULATION INCLUDES
ACTIVE ERP ACTIVE PARADIGMS IS
POSSIBLE THE AND IS KIND OF
EXERCISE THAT THEY WOULD LIKE TO
DO AND HERE OF COURSE THE
ETHICAL OR CLINICAL NEED IS YOU
KNOW WE NEED MEASURES THAT ARE
BASED ON SOME PHYSICAL PROCESSES
OCCURRING IN THE BRAIN AND
INDEPENDENTLY SENSORY INPUT AND
PROCESSING EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONS
AND MOTOR OUTPUTS AND FIRST LINE
IS EEG THAT WORKS.
THIS IS THE CLASSIFICATION OF
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND ARE OTHER
CLASSIFICATIONS AND RECORDING
EEG IS VERY, VERY INFORMATIVE
AND EVEN IN PATIENTS AND THIS
EEG WITH HIGH ALPHA POWER AND
LOW DELTA AND IT IS A GOOD SIGN.
EVEN IN OUR RESPONSIVE PATIENTS
IS A MARKER OF POTENTIAL
COGNITIVE MARKER DISASSOCIATION
THAT IS IMPORTANT AND OTHER HAND
THAT IS EEG THAT IS SEVERELY
ABNORMAL DOMINANT RHYTHM
SUPPRESSED EEG NO ALPHA POWER
LOSS OF GRADIENCE IS A BAD SIGN
AND IS A GRAY AREA THAT IS VAST.
IN THIS GRAY AREA EEG ASSESSMENT
CAN BE INCONCLUSIVE AND
COMPATIBLE WITH MINIMAL
CONSCIOUS STATE OR MORE AND WANT
TO ELABORATE A LITTLE ON WHY
THIS CAN BE THE CASE.
WE KNOW AND THIS, AGAIN,
CONNECTS WITH DISCUSSION THAT IS
NOT ONGOING BEFORE.
YOU KNOW, WE CAN HAVE
CONSCIOUSNESS AMONG DATA WAVES
IN SOME CASES THAT ARE
EXCEPTIONS AND ARE INTERESTING.
IN CASE OF BRAIN INJURY PATIENT
IS NOT SO MUCH SUCH AN
EXCEPTION. OF COURSE, WHAT CAN
HAPPEN IS THAT MAYBE YOU COULD
HAVE A CONSCIOUS PATIENT WITH
EPILEPTIC FOCUS SLOW WAVES
GENERATED THERE WILL DOMINATE
AND OLD STANDING NOTION LESIONS
FOCAL LESIONS NONIMPAIRED --
POWERFUL SLEEP WAVES THAT
DOMINATE THIS WE KNOW YOU HAVE
SLOW WAVES INTERCRANIALLY AND
EXIST WITH ACTIVE PATTERNS WHAT
DOMINATES SCALP IS IN SLOW WAVE
AND HAVE TO BE CAREFUL LOOKING
AT SCALP EEG AND WE KNOW ALPHA
CAN BE SUPPRESSED AND WE TAKE AS
A MEASURE AND INDEX OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND PRESERVED
CONSCIOUSNESS COULD BE
SUPPRESSED IN MANY CONSCIOUS
CONDITIONS AND DISCONNECTED FROM
ENVIRONMENT REM SLEEP AND
KETAMINE AND RECENT WORKS ARE
SHOWING PSYCHEDELICS AND IS A
STRONG SUPPRESSION OF ALPHA.
EXPLAINING THIS GRAY AREA AND
FACT THAT RELY ON ALPHA POWER
AND DELTA POWER IS NOT ALWAYS SO
INFORMATIVE IN PATIENTS AND WHAT
IS THE ALTERNATIVE. ONE
ALTERNATIVE GOING BEYOND RHYTHMS
AND LEVEL OF ACTIVITY LOOKING AT
OTHER PROPERTIES OR SYSTEM AND
HERE I WANT TO GO BACK TO A
PAPER THAT I FIND VERY
INTERESTING.
GIULIO WAS ONE OF THE AUTHORS
FIRST AUTHOR HERE CONSCIOUS OF
COMPLEXITY AND FIRST PAPER THAT
PROVIDES THE PROPOSAL OR
PROPOSES A DIRECT AND COMPLIS.
WHAT IS NICE IS IN GENERAL IT
WORKS USING FMRI AND BALANCE
BETWEEN INTEGRATION AND FUNCTION
DIVERSITY AND IS ANOTHER
BEAUTIFUL PAPER AND IS
MULTICENTRIC PAPER LED BY PARRIS
AND FMRI IS USED FOR THIS
MEASURE AND DIFFERENT TECHNIQUES
YOU NAME IT FMRI AND STEREO-EG
AND MICROCEPHALOGRAPHY IN MANY
CONDITIONS RANGING IN SLEEP AND
PSYCHEDELICS AND WHAT IS
INTERESTING AND ENCOURAGE IING.
THIS IS A SIGN WE ARE MAKING
PROGRESS AND CHRISTOF USING THE
BET IS CLASSIFIED.
IT IS A COMPLICATED LANDSCAPE
AND MANY WAYS MEASURING
COMPLEXITY AND SHOULD BE
TAXONOMY HERE AND DERIVING
NETWORKINGS AND COMPUTING USING
ROUGH THEORY TO CALCULATE
COMPLEXITY AND YOU CAN COMPLETE
DIRECTLY ON TIME SERIES ASSUMING
INTEGRATION AND PERTURB DIRECTLY
TO CORTEX ENGAGING CAUSAL
INTERACTIONS THAT IS --
MEASURING INTERACTION OF CHAIN
OF INTERACTION THAT IS APPROACH
THAT WILL SPEND A LITTLE TIME ON
AND I KNOW IT WELL AND
INTEGRATION SERIOUSLY AND
CORRELATION OF PERSPECTIVE -- IF
THE BRAIN IS MODULAR AND
INTEGRATION IS LOST, RESPONSES
ARE LOCAL IN SPACE AND TIME.
THIS IS THE WAY IT WORKS AND
LAST VERSION OF THE MACHINE YOU
HAVE A STIMULATOR ON TOP OF THE
HEAD AND SUBJECT YOU SEE EEG
MACHINE. IS THIS A LASER?
THERE IS A NAVIGATION. AND THEN
WHAT IS KEY IS ON THE SCREEN,
RIGHT AWAY, THANK YOU. RIGHT
AWAY AS YOU RUN THE EXPERIMENT
YOU SEE THE BRAIN RESPONSE AND
SEE AND CAN APPRECIATE IN MANY
CASES ESPECIALLY IN WHAT IS
HAPPENING AND THIS IS PRESENCE
OF ABSENCE OF COMPLEXITY AND YOU
QUANTIFY THAT AND IN PRACTICE IN
CONSCIOUS CONDITIONS RESPONSE
LOOKS LIKE THIS AND IT IS
INTERESTING AND CURRENT WAYS OF
ACTIVITY AND SPEAKING ABOUT
FEEDBACKS AND CORTICAL FEEDBACKS
AND THALAMUS IS INVOLVED AND
THERE IS EVIDENCE FOR THAT.
WHAT STRIKES YOUR EYE IS THAT
RESPONSE IS GLOBAL AND RICH
DIFFERENTIATED AND DIFFERENT
AREAS DOING DIFFERENT THINGS AT
DIFFERENT TIMES AND SPATIAL
TEMPORAL [INDISCERNIBLE] IS RICH
AND YOU HAVE DETERMINISTIC
PATTERN OF INTERACTIONS
WIDESPREAD AND QUITE COMPLEX.
TYPICALLY LARGER SCREEN AND
SIMPLE AND POSITIVE WAVE AND
PATTERN OF CORTICAL ACTIVATION
IS REALLY STEREOTYPICAL AND
CENTER OF MASK STAYS AT
STIMULATION SITE AND IS TYPICAL
PATTERN AND TYPICAL READ OUT.
OKAY?
WE QUANTIFY THIS WITH COMPLEXITY
MEASURE AND UNZIPPING AND THEN
IT IS IMPORTANT TO CALIBRATE
MEASURE IN CONDITIONS KNOWN AND
BEST KNOWN OF KNOWLEDGE AND WAY
TO PROCEED IN LONG SERIES OF
EXPERIMENT AND WE TOOK A
CONSCIOUS BENCHMARK OF PATIENTS
REPORTING THEY ARE CONSCIOUS AND
AWAKE AND ABLE TO REPORT AND IN
DISCONNECTED STATES LIKE
DREAMING OR KETAMINE IS
BENCHMARK FOR CONSCIOUSNESS AND
COUNTERFACTUAL OF UNCONSCIOUS
STATES BEST OF OUR KNOWLEDGE
BECAUSE MAYBE THEY ARE -- IT IS
DIFFICULT TO PROVE
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND ANESTHESIA
AND DEEP REM SLEEP THAT IS
COUNTERFACTUAL AND HAVING TWO
SDL
DISTRIBUTIONS IS DRAWING CUTOFF
AND IF A PATIENT SCORES IN SPITE
OF RESPONSIVENESS ABOVE THIS
CUTOFF THAT IS WITHIN
DISTRIBUTION OF COMPLEXITY THAT
WE FIND ONLY IN CASES OF
CONSCIOUS REPORTS THEN EVEN IF
IT IS UNRESPONSIVE WE NEED TO
PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PATIENT
AND WE MOVE TO PATIENTS
ACCORDING TO THIS LOGIC AND
FIRST TEST IS IN MINIMALLY
CONSCIOUS PATIENT AND IS TEST
NOT INFERENCE AND KNOW CONSCIOUS
AND DIFFICULT TO DETECT WITH
BRAIN-BASED MEASURE AND VERY
HIGH SENSITIVITY LOOKING AT THEM
WITH DMSEEG AND SENSITIVITY OF
EEG AND COMPLEXITY IS IN SLOW
WAVES AND WE HAVE THIS CORE
COMPLEXITY AND SURFACE OF SLOW
WAVES THAT EMERGES AS A
DETERMINISTIC PATTERN AND REAL
TARGET IS UNRESPONSIVE
WAKEFULNESS SYNDROME AND PATIENT
WE DON'T KNOW BETTER THAT IS NOT
MUCH BEHAVIOR AND IN THIS CASE
IS QUITE INTERESTING AND IS
MAJORITY OF PATIENT THAT IS
STUCK IN LOW COMPLEXITY STATE
SLEEPLIKE ANESTHESIA WAVES IS
SIMPLE AND BRAIN IS ACTIVE AND
LOW COMPLEXITY AND THERE IS
SHARE OF PATIENT WHO IS INDEED
SHOWING THIS COMPLEX PATTERN WE
NORMALLY SEE ONLY IN CONSCIOUS
BENCHMARK THAT IS ABOUT 20% OF
PATIENTS THAT IS INTERESTING BY
CLINICAL POINT OF VIEW AND ARE
BOTH INTERESTING AND WHAT DOES
IT MEAN TO BE HIGH COMPLEXITY
AND UNRESPONSIVE.
ACTUALLY, A FEW CASES.
LET'S TAKE TWO PATIENTS
RESPONSIVE AND SAME LABEL AND
EWS AND THEY UNDERGO TMEG AND
ONE CASE YOU SEE HIGH COMPLEXITY
ON LEFT AND LOW COMPLEXITY ON
RIGHT AND I WILL SHOW YOU
EXAMPLE OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE
HIGH COMPLEXITY AND ASSUMPTION
AND LOGIC IS IT IS OKAY BUT
THERE IS A CAPACITY FOR
CONSCIOUS AND MAYBE IS NOT
EXPRESSED AND MAYBE WHAT WE NEED
TO DO IS LOOK FOR CHANNELS.
AND RESTORING EXECUTIVE FUNCTION
AND COMMUNICATION CHANNELS AND
ONE CASE RECENTLY PUBLISHED
TOGETHER WITH BRIAN IN BOSTON,
THIS IS AIEPATIENT WITH MASSIVE
FRONTAL INJURY DUE TO ANNURISM
THAT IS RESPONSIVE FOR WEEKS AND
EEG GOES WITH THIS OH, MY GOD.
OKAY?
AND COGNITIVE POTENTIAL AND
PETRI NOT [INDISCERNIBLE] SORRY
IT IS ABSENT AND HAPPENS.
COMPLEXITY IS HIGH INSTEAD.
SO, WE HAVE LUXURY TO PUT
PATIENT IN SCANNER TO RUN AN
ACTIVE PARADIGM THAT IS NOT
ALWAYS POSSIBLE AND PATIENT WAS
ABLE TO PERFORM MENTAL IMAGERY
AND SHOW RIGHT ACTIVATION THAT
IS SUGGESTING THAT IT WAS
ACTUALLY THERE IN SPITE OF
EVERYTHING ELSE AND IS
CONCURRENT EVIDENCE THAT IS
USEFUL.
THIS IS ONE CASE.
ANOTHER CASE THERE IS MANY CASES
WE SEE COMPLEXITY GROWING IN THE
BRAIN BEFORE IT SHOWS UP IN
BEHAVIOR.
AND THIS IS INTERESTING.
THIS CAN -- YOU KNOW, IT IS
ENCOURAGING IN THE SENSE THAT WE
COULD THINK OF TAKING THIS EXAM
FOR NOW DONE IN THE MORE CHRONIC
SETTING CLOSER TO TIME OF INJURY
THAT IS PROPOSAL THAT BRIAN IS
PUSHING IN MASSACHUSETTS GENERAL
HOSPITAL AND HAVE EVIDENCE THIS
CAN BE ACTUALLY HELPFUL.
BECAUSE THIS IS A CASE, VERY
FIRST ACUTE CASE WE HAVE HAD
THAT IS PONS MIDBRAIN AND
CEREBELLUM AND DEBATE ON
INTENSIVE CARE UNIT HOW TO
PROCEED THAT IS FULLY RESPONSIVE
FOR MANY WEEKS AND EEG IS NOT SO
GREAT AND THEY SEND IT TO US AND
WE PERFORM MEASUREMENT IN A VERY
ACUTE SETTIN TUBATED TO ANTHEESH
YOLGS IN PLACE AND YOU SEE ON
THE SCREEN WHAT HAPPENS THAT IS
FULL OF RESPONSIVENESS.
NO VERTICAL EYE MOVEMENTS,
NOTHING.
EXCEPT FOR ON THE SCREEN YOU SEE
THIS. THIS IS REALLY HIGH
COMPLEXITY CONFIRMED BY NUMBER
THAT IS ALSO INTERESTING THAT IF
WE LET THE PATIENT FALL ASLEEP
AND CLOSE THEIR EYES AND DON'T
DO AROUSAL PROTOCOL AND LET THEM
GO COMPLEXITY FALLS DOWN. IT
MEANS SOMETHING. INDEED AFTER
15 DAYS, PATIENT RECOVERED
VERTICAL EYE MOVEMENT AND
COMMUNICATED WANTED TO UNDERGO
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND THIS AND
THAT AND IS POTENTIAL FOR USING
THIS IN ALSO IN EARLY STAGES OF
INJURY.
TWO MINUTES.
OKAY.
SUPER CHALLENGING.
>> YOU CAN USE QUESTIONS IN 7
MINUTES.
>> I WILL TRY NOT TO. YOU KNOW,
NOW IT WILL BE FLOW OF IMAGES
AND WORDS.
OKAY. LOW COMPLEXITY PATIENTS
THAT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE IT
LOOKS LIKE SLEEP ANESTHESIA AND
REVERSIBLE STATES AND SOME
RECOVER AND WE DON'T KNOW WHY.
SOME RECOVER COMPLEXITY AND
RECOVER CONSCIOUSNESS AND
INTERESTING WHAT HAPPENS SLEEP
IS A GOOD MODEL. AFTER ALL,
NOBODY IS DESTROYING BRAIN WHEN
YOU FALL ASLEEP AND HAVE SAME
LOSS OF COMPLEXITY AND EVIDENCE
AND WHAT HAPPENS IN SLEEP, YOU
HAVE FEET FORWARD WAVE AND
RECURRENT ACTIVATION ARE
DESTROYED AND HYPOTHESIS, WHY IS
IT IN SLEEP AT LEAST?
SLEEP DOWN STATES THE KIND OF,
YOU KNOW, SILENT FEAR THAT EMERY
SHOWED BEFORE IS THERE. THEY
ARE THERE BECAUSE OF INCREASING
ADAPTATION AND INHIBITION IN --
FOR MANY REASONS THAT ARE MAIN
WILL I RELATED TO ACTIVATED
SYSTEMS AND NEURONS UNDER THIS
CONDITION BECOME ACTIVE AND PUSH
AND THEY BECOME ACTIVE THEY
BECOME SILENT AND THOUGHT THIS
IS MAYBE WHAT HAPPENS IN SLEEP
AND KILLER OF COMPLEXITY IS THE
DOWN STATE THAT CAN BE READ OUT
AND AT SCALP LEVEL AND
SUPPRESSION OF HIGH FREQUENCY
AND BLUE BLOB AND WENT
INTRACRANIALLY AND FOUND INDEED
IN SLEEP IN INTRACRANIAL FIELD
YOU HAVE SIMPLE WAVE AND
DOWNSTEP AND NOT ONLY THAT
ADDRESSES IMPORTANT CONDITION
WITH STAN'S QUESTION AND WHAT
HAPPENS DURING UP STATE AND
AFTER THE DOWN STATE, DOWN STATE
IS SILENT PERIOD AND IS
INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT DOWN
STEP IS FOLLOWED BY ACTIVITY AND
UPSTATE AND UPSTATE IS
COMPLETELY STOCHASTIC WITH
RESPECT TO INITIAL INPUT AND
SHOW THAT WITH PHASE LOCKING
FACTOR AND IS COMPLETE BREAK
DOWN OF CAUSALITY AND SILENCE
AND THEY ARE ALSO FORGETTING
AFTER.
THIS IS A KEY ELEMENT THAT CAN
DISRUPT CAUSALITY IN SPITE OF
NEURAL ACTIVITY DURING UPSTATE
AND HAPPENS IN RODENTS AND IN
MODELS IF YOU CHANGE PARAMETERS
LIKE ADAPTATIONS AND EXCITATION
AND INHIBITION AND MOST
IMPORTANT IT HAPPENS IN HUMAN
SLEEP OF COURSE AND IN THE WAKE
STATE PATIENT AND SAME THING.
DOWN STATE BREAKDOWN OF
CAUSALITY AND LOCAL COMPLEXITY
AND EYES OPEN. THIS IS
INTRUSION OF SLEEPLIKE MECHANISM
IN BRAIN OF PATIENT AND THIS
INTRUSION WHEN THIS INTRUSION
GOES AWAY, GRADUALLY PATIENT
RECOVERS CAUSALITY AND
COMPLEXITY AND INTERESTING, I
THINK IT RELATES TO YOUR WORK
BECAUSE YOU SHOW SOME, YOU KNOW,
SIMILAR THINGS.
AND IN THE STATE THIS IS
EVERYWHERE AND YOU HAVE CORTEX
AND ALSO IT CAN HAPPEN AFTER
STROKE LOCALLY AND CAN YOU HAVE
INTRUSION OF SLEEPLIKE DYNAMIC
IN THE WAKE BRAIN AFTER A
STROKE.
WHICH IS INTERESTING.
IT IS INTERESTING TO KNOW THAT
EMERY WAS SAYING SLOW WAVES ARE
BEGINNING OF LIFE AND END OF
LIFE AND SEVERE DISEASES.
MANY MECHANISMS THAT DID ARE
CONVERGING AFTER BRAIN INJURY IN
DETERMINING SLOW WAVES AND DON'T
GO HERE AND ACTIVATING SYSTEMS
AND INFORMATION AND HYPOXIA AND
CONVERGE IN LEADING TO
STABILITY.
AND ONCE -- CAN IT -- I HAVE --
I HAVE ONE MINUTE?
>> OKAY.
SO, ONCE BY STABILITY IS
INSTANTIATED BECAUSE OF THE
INJURY AND EVEN LOCALLY.
THINGS CAN HAPPEN.
WE KNOW FOR EXAMPLE THAT SLOW
WAVES IN THE SLEEPING BRAIN,
THEY CAN TRAVEL AND START
SOMEWHERE AND TRAVEL FAR AWAY.
QUESTION IS, MAYBE YOU HAVE
FOCUS OF STABILITY AFTER INJURY
IN STROKE AND WAVES ARE THERE
AND ARE IMPAIRING LOCALLY AND
THEY CAN TRAVEL AND INTERFERE.
WITH THAT INTRACRANIALLY TAKING
ADVANTAGE OF RADIO FREQUENCY
THERMO[INDISCERNIBLE] AND HIGH
DENSITY STEREO-EEG RECORDINGS
AND WHEN AHAPPENS AROUND THE
LESION YOU HAVE DONUT OF SLEEP
IN WAKEFULNESS AND AREAS THAT
ARE RECEIVING WE HAVE CORTICAL
CORTICAL POTENTIAL AND
SELECTIVELY RECEIVING FROM
PERILESION OF SLEEPING AREA THEY
GO INTO SLEEPLIKE STATE IN SENSE
THAT DELL INCREASES AND
POTENTIAL FOR NETWORK
DISRUPTION.
IT IS BY STABILITY AND SLOW
WAVES AND LOCAL INJURIES ARE
DOING MORE AND DO A LOT IN TURN
IN VEGETATIVE STATE PATIENT AND
BRAIN STEM AND THALAMUS AND THIS
AND THAT AND ALSO IN STROKE.
IT IS INTERESTING.
BECAUSE WE KNOW THAT DOWN STATES
AND SLOW WAVES NOT ONLY DISRUPT
NETWORK AND CAUSALITY AS I
SHOWED BUT BEHAVIOR AND LOCALLY
SLOW WAVES DURING AND INTRUDING
WAKEFULNESS AND SLEEP
DEPRIVATION AND WAKEFULNESS
IMPAIR SELECTIVE BEHAVIOR AND
IMAGINE WHAT MASS INTRUSION OF
SLOW WAVES CAN DO IN THE BRAIN
AND CAN BE FIXED IN PRINCIPLE IN
VITRO AND IS IT GOOD TO REDUCE
SLOW WAVES AND GOOD THING AND
NEED TO THINK ABOUT IT AND SLOW
WAVES ARE GOOD AND SLOW WAVES IN
SLEEP WE PAY FOR MANY THINGS
STATIC AND PLASTIC AND INJURIES
IN ACUTE PHASE COULD BE THE CASE
AND HAVE TO BE CARINGFUL AND TRY
TO UNDERSTAND WHEN GOOD AND BAD
AND WHAT THEY DO AND COMPLICATED
METHOD AND WANT TO FINISH AND
KNOW WE SHOULD LOOK FORWARD AND
SPIRIT OF MEETING AND GOOD TO
LOOK BACK BECAUSE EARLY IDEAS
ARE GREAT IDEAS AND WE HAVE TO
VALUE AND OUR IDEAS WILL BE
TESTED IN THE FUTURE AND THIS IS
PROPOSING DIE ASQUEEZIS BY
OBSERVING FIGURING OUT LESION IS
DOING SOMETHING BECAUSE OF LOSS
OF NEURONS AND DOING A LOT
BECAUSE OF NETWORK FUNCTIONAL
EFFECT AND DISRUPTION OF FAR
AWAY ACTIVITY.
AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER
NOTION.
THIS IS ONE OF THE FATHERS OF
ELECTROENCEPHALOGRAPHY THAT
DISCOVER DELTA RHYTHM FOR FIRST
TIME WAS DESCRIBED IN THIS AREA
AND PUT THIS ALL TOGETHER AND
WITH THE HELP OF [INDISCERNIBLE]
THAT I ALSO WANT TO THANK AND
REMEMBER WHO DISCOVERED THAT --
THESE ARE GREAT
NEUROPHYSIOLOGISTS AND GREAT
IDEAS THAT ARE BECOMING ONLY 100
YEARS LATER IN LAB CLINICAL
STUFF AND WE WORK AND ALL
COLLABORATORS -- WHICH IS
ANOTHER FANTASTIC TEAM WE WORK
ON AND THANK YOU FOR IT.
>> THANK YOU FOR THE VERY
INTERESTING TALK. MY QUESTION
IS RELATED TO COMBA. THERE ARE
PATIENTS THAT CAN RECOVER
THROUGH COMBA IN PERIOD OF
SEVERAL DAYS AND IN MONTHS AND
YEARS AND CAN PCI MEASURE
COMPLEXITY AND VALUE CHANGES OF
PCI OVER TIME OR DAYS OR MONTHS
CAN IT BE USED TO PREDICT WHEN A
PERSON CAN RECOVER FROM COMA?
HAVE YOU STUDIED THAT?
LIKE I IS A YOU THAT YOU HAVE
SOME INDICES LIKE THE PCI WAS
.44 VERSUS .23 AND WHAT IS
TIMESCALE YOU MEASURE DURING
OVER DAYS OR TIME? THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU. JUST TO CLARIFY
BY COMA YOU MEAN COMA EYES
CLOSED NO AROUSAL OR IN GENERAL
DISORDERS OF UNCONSCIOUSNESS
RESPONSIVENESS FROM VEGETATIVE
STATE SORRY JUST WANT TO ANSWER.
>> PATIENT IS IN COMA.
>> EYES CLOSED.
>> YES.
>> I DON'T EXPECT PCI TO BE -- I
WOULD BE SURPRISED IF I WAS TO
-- I NEVER FOUND PCI HIGH IN A
COMA AND NO AROUSAL OR
COMPLEXITY OR PCI.
MEASUREMENT BECOMES INTERESTING
MOMENT YOU RECOVER AROUSAL EYES
OPENING AND MASTER SWITCH OF YOU
KNOW WAKEFULNESS AS WE SAY BUT
YOU KNOW AND IT IS INTERESTING
BECAUSE RECOVERY OF AROUSAL CAN
HAVE DIFFERENT CONSEQUENCES.
IN SOME PATIENTS, CORTEX REMAINS
IN STUCK IN SLEEPLIKE STATE AND
IS MAIN POINT AND IS 80% OF
PATIENTS.
20% RECOVER AROUSAL AND RECOVER
COMPLEXITY AND NOT BEHAVIOR.
SO, YES.
ONCE EYES ARE OPENING HAPPENS IS
USEFUL TO TRACK THEM AND EXAMPLE
I SHOWED IS MEASUREMENTS
SEPARATED BY 10 DAYS AND 1, 10
DAYS AND 20 DAYS.
>> GREAT.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
>> OKAY. FINAL SPEAKER FOR THIS
SESSION IS PROFESSOR MOFAKHAM.
SIMA HAS BEEN TRAINED AS A
NUCLEAR PHYSICIST AND HAS BEEN
WORKING ON CONDENSED MATTER
PHYSICS.
SHE WAS GRADUATED FROM THE
ULTIMATE BEST UNIVERSITY IN IRAN
CALLED SHARIF AND CAME TO UNITED
STATES AND HAD PHD IN
COMPUTATIONAL NEUROSCIENCE AT
UNIVERSITY OF MICHIGAN AND POST
DOC AT MIU AND HAS BEEN FACULTY
AT STONEY BROOK IN THE LAST FIVE
YEARS AND LAB FOCUSES ON STUDIES
OF HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS AND
COMBINES INTRACRANIAL --
>> THANK YOU JOSEPH FOR A KIND
INTRODUCTION AND THANKING
ORGANIZER BIYU AND NHF AND NIH
AND ALL OF YOU. I WANT TO TALK
ABOUT RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS
AFTER A TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY.
RESEARCH WE HAVE BEEN DOING FOR
THE LAST FIVE OR 6 YEARS ATSTONY
BROOK.
CAN I PROCEED?
IT IS IMPORTANT TO MENTION ALL
OF THE DEVICES HAVE BEEN USING
THIS STUDY AND THEY ARE USED IN
ACCORDANCE WITH FDA APPROVED
LABELING.
FIRST THING FIRST, I WANT TO
ACKNOWLEDGE MY TEAM. MICHAEL
FUNCTIONAL NEUROSURGEON RUN LAB
TOGETHER IN DEPARTMENT AT STONEY
BROOK AND [INDISCERNIBLE]
DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF
ELECTRICAL ENGINEERING AND YURI
WHO IS A CLOSE COLLABORATOR AND
GREAT FRIEND -- ALSO CREATE
CAUSAL PERTURBATIONS AND SEE HOW
THE BRAIN RESPONDS TO THAT.
WE ALSO DEVELOP BEHAVIORAL
MEASURES THAT CAN OBJECTIVELY
MEASURE RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IN PATIENTS.
NOW, ALL THESE TOGETHER GIVES US
AN INSIGHT THAT HAS CELLULAR AND
NETWORK INTERACTIONS THAT RESULT
IN RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN
THESE PATIENTS AND OVERARCHING
GOAL OF THE TEAM IS BASICALLY TO
DEVELOP NOVEL THERAPEUTIC
APPROACHES.
FOR EXAMPLE, THIS LIGHT I'M
SHOWING HERE IS THIS STIMULATION
PROPOSAL TO FACILITATE RETURN OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IN PATIENTS.
SO, TODAY, I WILL START WITH
SHOWING YOU SOME OF THE CLINICAL
OBSERVATION AND HOW DO PATIENTS
RECOVER CONSCIOUSNESS AND WHAT
INTERACTIONS SUPPORT RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND BEHAVIORAL
MEASURES, SEE ME. WE ARE
DEVELOPING IN THE LAB THAT
OBJECTIVELY MEASURES BEHAVIORAL
COMPONENT OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
OUTLOOK FOR BROADER FIELD KEY
QUESTIONS AND FUTURE DIRECTIONS.
AS YOU KNOW TRAUMATIC BRAIN
INJURY CAN RESULT IN LOSS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS STONYBROOK RECEIVE
70 TO 80 CASES AND GRAPH ON
RIGHT YOU SEE TIME TO COMMAND
FOLLOWING IS IMPORTANT TO
MENTION THAT THERE IS TALK
TALKING ABOUT RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND WHAT I MEAN IS
RECOVERY OF COMMAND FOLLOWING
GOAL-DIRECTED BEHAVIOR THAT
DOESN'T COVER -- IT DOESN'T
COVER OR INCLUDE COVERT
CONSCIOUSNESS.
IF YOU LOOK AT THE GRAPH, YOU
SEE THAT THE MOST OF THE
PATIENTS, THEY RECOVERED
CAPACITY TO FOLLOW COMMAND
PRETTY SOON WITHIN THE FIRST 10
DAYS AND SOME THAT TAKES WEEKS
AND MONTHS TO RECOVER
CONSCIOUSNESS AND 20% OF THOSE
THAT THEY DON'T RECOVER
CONSCIOUSNESS.
WE BUILT IT LARGE DATABASE OF
670 PATIENTS AT STONYBROOK LAST
THEIR TA ENYEARS LOOKING AT HOW
PATIENTS RECOVER CONSCIOUSNESS
BASICALLY CURRENT WAYS OF
MEASURING LEVELS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AS MAR CELLO IS ON
BASED ON BEHAVIOR MEASURING
BASED ON SCORING SYSTEM LIKE GCS
THAT IS ONE OF THEM THAT IS
BASICALLY BASED ON EYE OPENING
VARIABLE AND MOTOR BEHAVIOR.
SO, HERE IN THE FIGURE, YOU CAN
SEE TRAJECTORY OF RECOVERY.
IT IS FOR POPULATION OF THESE
PATIENTS AND EACH TRACE IS
TRAJECTORY RECOVERY FOR ONE
PATIENT.
LOOKING AT THIS FIGURE, I HOPE
YOU CAN SEE THERE IS TWO
DIFFERENT DISTINCT PATTERNS OF
RECOVERY EMERGING.
ONE IS SHOWN IN BLUE AND OTHER
IN BLACK AND HAVE SEPARATED
THESE TRAJECTORIES BASED ON
RECOVERY RATE OF PATIENTS.
IF YOU TAKE AVERAGE OF THESE
TRACES, YOU CAN SEE FAST GROUP
CURVE LOOKS EXPONENTIAL AND SLOW
ONE LOOKS LIKE MORE SIGMOIDAL
CURVE.
NOW, WE HAVE BUILT CLASSIFIERS
WITH MACHINE LEARNING TECHNIQUES
AND CLASSIFIABLE SUPERVISED AND
UNSUPERVISED THAT ARE CAPABLE OF
IDENTIFYING THE TWO GROUPS AND
NOW THE QUESTION IS WHAT ARE
UNDERLYING MECHANISMS THAT ARE
SUPPORTING THESE DISTINCT
RECOVERY PATTERNS?
SO, THE FAST RECOVERY GROUPS
THAT ARE SHOWN IN BLUE, IT IS
MORE OR LESS FOLLOWING NUN OR
ALL RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS
THAT IS EXPLAINED BY NICO SHIFTS
MODEL AS A CIRCUIT MODEL THAT IS
DUE TO RETURN OF AEROSOL AND
EXCITABILITY OF CORTICAL NETWORK
AND SLOW RECOVERY CARE HOWEVER
DOESN'T FOLLOW THAT AND
HYPOTHESIZE RECOULD EVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IN SLOW RECOVERY
CARE IS DUE TO GRADUAL RECOVERY
OF CONNECTIVITY AND WHAT ARE
FACTORS THAT EFFECT CONNECTIVITY
OF CORTICAL NETWORKS?
PREVIOUS REPORTS HAVE SHOWN THAT
[INDISCERNIBLE] PLAYS A ROLE.
NOW, NEW MODEL OF THALAMUS IS
THAT THALAMUS IS NOT JUST
PASSIVE RELAY OF SENSORY
INFORMATION TO CORTEX BUT RATHER
ACTIVELY HIGHER THAT'LL MIC --
INTERACTION IN CORTEX AND BASED
ON OBSERVATIONS WE HYPOTHESIZE
FLEXIBLE INFORMATION COGNITIVE
NEURAL ENSEMBLES NEED TOED R
GOAL-DIRECTED BEHAVIOR AND TO
EXAMINE IT THIS HYPOTHESIS, WE
USED DTRI NEUROIMAGING TO LOOK
AT INTEGRITY OF THE TRACKS THAT
THEY ARE ORIGINATING FROM WHOLE
THALAMUS AND [INDISCERNIBLE] TO
PFC THAT IS INCLUDING PFC AND
MPFC AND A CONSIDER. C AND OFC
AND CORRELATED INTEGRITY FOR
ENTROPY FOR OUTCOME OF THE
PATIENTS.
AND AS YOU CAN SEE ON THE PLOT
ON THE RIGHT THAT PATIENTS THAT
THEY HAD HIGH INTEGRITY OF
THAT'LL MAL CORTICAL PROJECTIONS
SHOWED FAVORABLE RESULTS AND
FAVORABLE RESULT HERE IS DEFINED
AS RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
IT IS WITHIN UNCONSCIOUSNESS
HERE FOLLOWING COMMAND THAT IS
WITHIN 30 DAYS AFTER BRAIN
INJURY.
NOW, TO SEE HOW A STRUCTURE
CONNECTS TO DYNAMICS, WE ALSO
USE SEIZURE MONITORING DEPTH
ELECTRODES IMPLANTED FROM PFC TO
A CONSIDER. C AND 10 CONTACTS
RECORDING EACH OF THESE AND
APPLYING STIMULATION AND THIS IS
A VERY RARE SETTING IN TYPES OF
PATIENTS THAT CAN IN ADDITION TO
DIRECT ACING CRESS TO THE DEPTH
CORTICAL REGIONS IN HUMAN, HE
CAN ALSO PERTURB REGION SEEING
HOW BRAIN RESPONDS AS THEY
RECOVER CONSCIOUSNESS.
IT IS IMPORTANT TO MENTION ALL
STUDIES ARE IRB APPROVED AND IN
ADDITION DATA SAFETY MONITORING
BOARD ALSO SUPERVISES STUDIES
AND IMPLANTATION IS DONE BECAUSE
OF THE CLINICAL BENEFIT FOR
PATIENTS.
NOW, LET'S LOOK AT THE -- HOW
THE BRAIN RESPONDS WHEN YOU
APPLY SINGLE PULSES OF
STIMULATION LOOKING AT RESPONSES
HERE AND APPLY STIMULATION
PULSES AT ACC AND ARE RECORDING
RESPONSES ON SALP CHANNELS AND
EXAMPLE OF TWO PATIENTS WITH TC
THAT IS AWAKE AND ONE WITH NO TC
THAT IS NOT RECOVERING AND
RESPONSES FOR PATIENT NOT
RECOVERY IS STEREOTYPICAL HUGE
RESPONSES REP TETTIVE AND
STEREOTYPICAL AND SIMILAR TO
WHAT MAR CELLO WAS SHOWING IN
HIS RESEARCH AND PATIENT WITH NO
THALAMIC INJURY RESPONSES ARE
COMPLEX AND VARIABLE AND WE HAVE
DONE ANALYSIS FOR ALL OF THE
FIVE PATIENTS THAT THEY WERE
IMPLANTED WITH ELECTRODE AND
THOUGHT THAT THALAMIC INJURY
RESULTED IN LOW COMPLEXITY AND
LOW VARIABILITY OF THE SIGNALS.
SO, MOST AWAKE PERSON OR
PATIENTS HAD HIGHEST COMPLEXITY
AND HIGHEST VARIABILITY IN THESE
SIGNALS.
NOW, TO SEE HOW DYNAMICS EVOLVE
OVER TIME WE HAVE DONE PHASES
BASED RECONSTRUCTION AND IDEA IS
YOU PULL OUT SIGNAL BASED ON
DELAYED VERSION THAT IS TO
CAPTURE UNDERLYING DYNAMICS THAT
SUPPORT ACTIVITIES AND BUILT
UNDERLYING STRUCTURES THAT
SUPPORT ACTIVITIES IN MOST AWAKE
ONE. YOU CAN SEE ON THE RIGHT
THAT PHASES ARE VERY COMPLEX AND
LOOKS MUCH [INDISCERNIBLE] AND
HAS LOTS OF FREEDOM.
IT IS UNPREDICTABLE AND HAS A
LOT OF POSSIBLE STATES.
I WANTED MAYBE LATER I CAN TALK
TO KALINA ABOUT THESE AND HER
IDEA OF UNPREDICTABILITY.
FOR THE DEEP COMBA WITH THALAMIC
INJURY, YOU SEE PHASES FACE
LOOKS LIKE A STRUCTURED ACTOR
THAT IS PREDICTABLE AND
REPETITIVE AND LIMITED NUMBER OF
STATES ARE AVAILABLE AND
BASICALLY NO FREEDOM AND WHEN WE
APPLIED SINGLE PULSES OF
STIMULATION, WE SAW THAT
STIMULATION DIDN'T CHANGE
TRAJECTORY OF THE STATES IN THE
ATTRACTOR.
FOR A PERSON WHO IS IN AWAKE
STATE, STIMULATION TAKES
TRAJECTORY TO DIFFERENT
DIRECTIONS.
SO, TAKE-HOME MESSAGE FROM THE
STAGE IS VAGUS STATE IS COMPLEX
AND UNPREDICTABLE AND HAS LOTS
OF FREEDOM AND IN COMA STATE
WITH THALAMIC INJURY CORTICAL
STATES THERE IS STUCK IN THIS
ATTRACTOR THAT IS LIMITED NUMBER
OF -- HAS VERY LIMITED NUMBER OF
POSSIBLE STAKES REPETITIVE AND
PREDICTABLE.
AND WE HAVE REPEATED THIS
ANALYSIS AND IT IS IN A BUNCH OF
PATIENTS RECOVERING PATIENTS 20
PATIENTS EEG AND OBSERVE SIMILAR
THING AND ANALYZE FURTHER USING
REOCCURRENCE PLOT AND CALCULATED
DETERMINISM LEVEL AND SAW
PATIENTS THAT THEY HAVE HIGH
INTEGRITY OF THAT'LL AMMAL
CORTICAL [INDISCERNIBLE] HAVE
LOW THAT'LL AMMISM AND IT IS
HIGH AND VERY PREDICTABLE
DYNAMIC THAT IS CONSISTENT WITH
THIS AND COLLABORATOR AND HIS
TEAM ALSO TRIED TO USE GAUSSIAN
PROCESSES TO PREDICT SIGNALS
BASED ON HISTORY AND FOUND IT
EASIER TO PREDICT SIGNALS WITH
THALAMIC INJURY PREDICTED FOR
LONGER TIME AND MORE ACCURACY
AND FOUND THAT WHEN THERE IS
THALAMIC INJURY NUMBER OF
CORTICAL STATES WILL SHRINK AND
ARE MUCH LESS STATES AVAILABLE.
NOW, SPEAKING ON PAST, THIS IS
WHAT ACTUALLY WILLIAM JAMES
FOUND AND WROTE IN 1890 THAT
THAT'LL AM US IS REQUIRED FOR
PREDICTABLE BEHAVIOR.
WHY IT CREATES -- IN THIS MODEL
CORTEX INCLUDED EXCITATORYIN
HIBTORY CELLS AND THALAMUS DOES
TWO IMPORTANT THINGS PROVIDING
EXCITATORY INPUT TO CORTEX AND
ACTIVELY AMPLIFIES CORTICAL
CORTICAL SYNAPTIC GATES AND THIS
MODEL IS SUCCESSFUL TO SIMULATE
SPONTANEOUS ACTIVITY IN COMBA
AND AWAKE AND SLOW WAVE THAT
EMERY WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS
MORNING AND ALSO WAS SUCCESSFUL
TO REPLICATE IN THE COMPLEX
RESPONSES THAT IS SHOWING IN
AWAKE AND STEREOTYPICAL RESPONSE
IN COMA AND COMPLEX PHASES
FACING AWAKE AND ATTRACTER
DYNAMICS IN COMA AND IN THIS
MODEL WE HAVE AN EXPERIMENT THAT
WE IMBEDDED IN NEURAL
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND
STRENGTHENING SOME CONNECTIONS.
AND WE LOOKED AT DYNAMIC
ENSEMBLE IN COMA AND IN AWAKE
STATE AND ACTIVITY OF NEURONS
FOREIGN SEMABLE THAT IS SHOWN IN
RED BOX HERE AND AS YOU CAN SEE
IN THE COMA STATE THAT SPIKES
FOLLOW THE REST OF THE NETWORK
AND THEY CANNOT DISTINGUISH
ACTIVITY FROM THE REST OF THE
NETWORK.
ADDING THALAMIC INPUT AND IN
AWAKE STATE AND COMPLEX AWAKE
STATE, YOU CAN SEE NEURONS COME
TOGETHER AND ACTIVITY OF THESE
ENSEMBLE IS SHOWN IN RED BOX
HERE THAT IS VERY DISTINCT FROM
THE REST OF THE NETWORK.
ENSEMBLE IS ACTIVATED AND
ENSEMBLE CAN THINK ABOUT A CUP
OF COFFEE OR GOING TO DREAM OR
ANY THOUGHT YOU HAVE.
PREDICTION OF THESE MODELS IS
THAT RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS
REQUIRED THALAMIC SUPPORT OF
CORTICAL NETWORK THAT HAS
DYNAMIC AND FLEXIBLE FORMATION
OF COGNITIVE NEURAL ENSEMBLES
AND BASICALLY WHAT THIS MODEL IS
SAYING IS THAT THALAMUS SUFFERS
CORTICAL NEURONS TO COME
TOGETHER AND CODE INFORMATION
AND CUP OF COFFEE AND JEAN AT
NIH AND WHAT I NEED TO APPLY AND
ALL THESE THINGS AND NICE AND
DYNAMIC DANCE OF THESE
ENSEMBLES, IT IS WHAT THAT
CREATES THE COMPLEXITY THAT WE
SEE IN THE PHASE OF SPACE OF
ECOG RECORDING.
THIS IS MAIN PREDICTION OF THE
MODEL.
NOW, WHAT WE DID IS SEPARATED
ROLE OF EXCITABILITY AND
CONNECTIVITY IN THESE MODELS AND
BASICALLY WE STARTED WITH WEAK
EXCITABILITY INCREASE
EXCITABILITY OF THE NETWORK
GRADUALLY AND SAW IT IS ALL OR
NONE BASICALLY EFFECT ENSEMBLE
APPEARS SUDDENLY HERE AND DOING
THIS IN CONNECTIVITY, WE SAW
THAT EMERGENCE OF ENSEMBLE IS
REALLY GRADUAL AND INTERESTING
TO SEE IT STARTS IN SMALL
PATCHES AND ISLANDS AND MERGED
TOGETHER ENSEMBLE EMERGES AND IS
VERY CONSISTENT WITH CLINICAL
OBSERVATION THAT I SHOWED YOU IN
THE BEGINNING AND SO FAR I
SHOWED YOU THAT THALAMIC
INJURIES CORRELATES WITH DEFICIT
GOAL-DIRECTED BEHAVOR THAT
CREATES A FUNCTIONALLY PASSIVE
STATE THAT IS STUCK IN THIS
ATTRACTOR THAT IS PREDICTABLE
LOW COMPLEXITY AND
DETERMINISTIC.
IT HAS -- IT ONLY ALLOWS LIMITED
NUMBER OF STATES THAT ARE
PERIODIC.
THAT ARE PERIODICALLY MOVE TO
THIS STATE. THE LAST AND MOST
IMPORTANT LOW COMPLEXITY AND
PREDICT BABILITY DYNAMIC
COMPARED TO ENSEMBLE DYNAMIC AND
TOLD YOU ABOUT STRUCTURE AND
INTERACTION NEEDED FOR RECOVERY
OF CONSCIOUSNESS, ITS BIOMARKERS
AND OUR MODEL AND INCLUDES REAL
TIME OBJECTIVE BEHAVIOR MODEL OF
CONSCIOUSNESS.
SO, IN THE LAB, WE ARE TRYING TO
DEVELOP THIS MEASURE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND BEHAVIOR
MEASURE OF CONSCIOUSNESS THAT IS
COMMAND FOLLOWING THAT IS BASED
ON QUANTIFYING STIMULUS EVOKED
FACIAL MICRO EXPRESSION AND AS
MAR CELLO SAYS MEASURING LEVEL
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND SLOW
CLINICIAN DEPENDENCE AND
SUBJECTIVE AND SO THEY ARE NOT
GOOD TO PLUG INTO CLOSED LOOP
STIMULATION SYSTEM.
TO IMPROVE IN THIS METHOD, WE
HAVE WHAT WE ARE DOING IS
VIDEOTAPING PATIENT SPACE AND WE
ARE PRESENTING AUDIO SIGNALS.
FOR EXAMPLE, WE ARE ASKING THEM
TO OPEN YOUR EYE AND MAKE A
SMILE AND WE ARE TRACKING
PICHLEL AND PICHLEL THEIR FACE
AND PICHLEL BY PICHLEL X AND YP
AND PIXEL THEIR FACE AND PIXEL
BY PIXEL X AND Y.
VISUALIZE IN HEAT MAP AND
SHOWING EXAMPLE AND FACE IS
BLURRED BECAUSE OF IRB
REQUIREMENT.
WHAT YOU SEE BELOW THE BLUE LINE
IS SOME OF ACTIVITY AROUND THE
EYE AREA. I WILL PRESENT THE
PATIENT BY OPENING YOUR EYE
COMMAND.
RED LINE IS WHERE YOU OPEN YOUR
EYE COMMAND IS PRESENTED.
YOU CAN APPRECIATE BREATHING
MOVEMENT IN THE FACE NOW WHERE
IT HEATS RED LINE AND OPEN YOUR
EYE AND COMMAND IS PRESENTED AND
YOU SEE THE EYE MOVEMENT AROUND
THE EYE.
THIS IS MISSED BY CLINICIANS.
ONLY 20% OF THESE -- THEY CAN BE
OBSERVED BY CLINICIANS.
SOME MORE EXAMPLE IS DIFFERENT
COMMANDS THAT YOU CAN PRESENT
AND OVERALL WE OBSERVED THAT
USING THIS TECHNIQUE WE CAN
DETECT AND PREDICT CONSCIOUSNESS
10 DAYS AND EARLIER THAN CRS AND
WITH NAKED EYE BASICALLY AND
THIS IS CRUCIAL AND LOTS OF
DECISIONS ABOUT KEEPING PATIENTS
AND WITHDRAWING CARE IS MADE
DURING THIS TIME.
SO, THE OUTLOOK AND KEY
QUESTIONS, I THINK FIRST
QUESTION, HOW CAN WE OBJECTIVELY
GOAL DIRECTED BEHAVIOR AND EMG
PREVIOUS STUDIES HAVE SHOWN SOME
SUCCESS WITH THESE I THINK OR
SEE ME TECHNIQUE THAT IS ALSO
VERY EASY TO IMPLANT AND IN THE
BEDSIDE AND IS EASY TO BE
INTEGRATED WITH E COG AND FUTURE
TECHNIQUES SAMPLE MUSCLES AND
SEAMLESS LINKAGE TO EEG AND ECOG
AND SECOND THING WHAT IS
MECHANISM OF RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND SHOWING TWO
MECHANISMS FAST AND SLOW AND
CONNECTED THOSE TO NEURAL ENSEM
FORMATION AND HAVE DIRECT HOW
CAN YOU FACILITATE RECOVERY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND CORTICAL
STIMULATION WORK AND IN MODEL WE
SHOWED IF YOU APPLY CORTICAL
STIMULATION THAT THE DASHED LINE
IS ONLY -- IT HAS MORE EFFECT IF
PERSON IS LACKING EXCITABILITY
AND NOT AS EFFECTIVE IF
CONNECTIVITY IS MISSING AND WE
SAW THAT EXPERIMENTALLY WHEN WE
APPLIED TO SINGLE STIMULATIONS
OF ACC OF PATIENT AND SAW
AEROSOL WAS INCREASED BY
INCREASED HEART RATE AND
BREATHING AND WHAT DO WE DO TO
ENTRIES TO FACILITATE RECOVERY
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND IN PATIENTS
THAT THEY LACK CONNECTIVITY.
WE TALKED ABOUT ROLE OF THALAMUS
AND EXCITABILITY AND
CONNECTIVITY AND THINK THAT WE
-- WE THINK THAT WITH
RESOLVEMENT AND OTHER COLLEAGUES
WE DISCUSS CLOSE STIMULATION
PARADIGM THAT IS PAIRED
STIMULATION IN THALAMUS AND WHAT
IS SHOWED EARLIER TODAY AND MD
FOR CONNECTIVITY AND WHAT
FASHION I THINK IT SHOULD BE
CLOSED LOOP SYSTEM COUPLED WITH
PREDICTIVE MODELING AND
REAL-TIME BEHAVIORAL MEASURE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND WITH THAT I AM
DONE.
>> WE HAVE FIVE MINUTES FOR
QUESTI
QUESTIONS.
BEAUTIFUL TALK AND APPROACH
SEEMS EXCITING AND CURIOUS IF
YOU HAVE STANDARDS FOR AS YOU
KNOW ASSESSING LEVEL OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IN PEOPLE WITH
CHRONIC DISORDERS AND
CONSCIOUSNESS VERY DEPENDENT ON
AROUSAL STATE AND STIMULATORY
PROTOCOLS IS THERE A PROTOCOL
YOU DO SOMETHING TO BE SURE
PATIENT IS SUFFICIENTLY AROUSED
AND DO IT REPEATED ASSESSMENTS
AND HOW DOES IT ALL WORK?
>> YEAH. WAY WE DO IT, FIRST OF
ALL WE MAKE SURE SEDATIONS ARE
OFF BEFORE WE DO IT AND WE DO
CRS FIRST.
AND THEN WE DO THE SEE ME.
AND WE REPEAT THAT TWO TIMES A
DAY FOR THE DURATION THAT THEY
ARE IN HOSPITAL.
>> THANK YOU.
>> OF COURSE.
>> QUESTION ONLINE.
DO YOU BELIEVE ROLE OF THALAMUS
ACTS AS PER TUBATIVE -- NOTING
OTHERWISE WOULD GET CAUGHT IN
ATTRACTOR OR DOMINATED STATE.
>> SO, I THINK THAT THALAMUS I
DON'T KNOW IF I UNDERSTOOD THE
QUESTION WELL.
IF IT WAS WHAT THALAMUS DOES TO
INHIBIT THE ATTRACTOR, IS THAT
THE QUESTION?
>> SO, I -- WHAT THALAMUS DOES
IS IT ENABLES CORTICAL NEURONS
TO GO IN FUNCTIONAL ACTIVE STATE
THAT THEY CAN ACTUALLY
COMMUNICATE TOGETHER AND COME
TOGETHER FORM ENSEMBLES AND GET
ENSEMBLES ACTIVATED AND
DEACTIVATES AND ENSEMBLES AND
ANOTHER ENSEMBLE AND COMPLEX
PHASES FACE AND IF YOU REMOVE
THEY PASSIVELY GO UP AND DOWN
WITH THALAMIC RHYTHM, BASICALLY.
>> THANK YOU. VERY CLEAR TALK.
WITH THIS FAITH BASED ANALYSIS
IF I UNDERSTAND CORRECTLY WHAT
YOU DO IS TIME DELAY IMBEDDING
AND FACE ANALYSIS.
>> YES.
>> THAT IS DONE ON SAME SIGNAL;
RIGHT?
>> YEAH.
>> DO YOU ADD SOME DELAYS MORE
THAN OTHERS AND SEE SOME KIND OF
BIFURCATION OR AVALANCHES THAT
WOULD HAPPEN OR HAVE SOME KIND
OF NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL CORRELATE
TO THE POPULATIONS THAT YOU
WOULD THEN MODEL OR THAT WOULD
KICK THIS OUT OF THE ATTRACTOR
INSTANCE? AM I BEING CLEAR? IF
YOU HAVE DELAY THAT TIME SCALE
MUST HAVE A MEANING IN TERMS OF
CHANGE AND TRAJECTORY THAT CAN
GO THIS WAY OR THAT WAY AND YOU
HAVE CRITICAL SLOWING DOWN OR
AVALANCHES THAT WOULD INDICATE A
STATE CHANGE AND I'M INTERESTED
IN THE TIME COMPONENT THAT YOU
-- IF YOU SEE THAT IN -- IN WHAT
DELAY DO YOU SEE THIS?
>> I THINK WE TRIED DIFFERENT
DELAYS.
AND NOW I'M TRYING TO REMEMBER
HOW DID YOU PICK THE DELAY?
CAN I LOOK IT UP AND TELL YOU
LATER?
>> SURE.
>> YEAH.
>> THANKS.
>> FOR SOME REASON I DON'T
REMEMBER.
>> STAN TAKES LAST QUESTION.
>> THANK YOU FOR BEAUTIFUL TALK
AND PROCEEDING QUESTION AND BOTH
OF YOU AND WHAT ARE PROSPECTS
USING LESS INVASIVE STIMULATION
AND DIRECT STIMULATION TO GET IN
CORTEX AND PERHAPS IN FOCUSED
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND IS THIS
BEING USED AT THE MOMENT IN --
AT YOUR PLACE OR OTHER PLACES?
>> I MEAN, WE HAVE NOT --
MARSHALL, WANT TO ANSWER THAT
QUESTION? I THINK YOU ARE
BETTER AND CAN TALK BETTER ABOUT
IT.
>> IS IT STANDING FOR RECOVERY
FOR DIAGNOSTIC.
>> STIMULATION.
>> TO BE HONEST I DON'T HAVE
EXPERIENCE WITH THAT EXCEPT FOR
ULTRA SOUND AND INITIAL
OCCURRING BEHAVIORAL RESULTS
THAT I KNOW.
>> WE ARE THINKING TO BUY THAT
BECAUSE IT LOOKS SO PROMISING
AND IS TOO EXPENSIVE AND GETS
FUNDING FROM NIH.
>> >> YEAH. DO YOU MIND?
>> YEAH.
>> CAN WE ASK THE QUESTION AND
WAIT FOR THE GENERAL DISCUSSION.
BECAUSE WHAT HAPPENED THIS
MORNING IF YOU DON'T MIND WE GO
GRAB LUNCH AND COME HERE AND DO
THE GENERAL DISCUSSION
SIMULTANEOUSLY SO WE SAVE SOME
TIME AND GIVE FIVE MINUTES FOR
YOU TO GRAB DRINKS AND LUNCH AND
GENERAL DISCUSSION WILL START
AND YOU CAN ACTUALLY ASK
QUESTIONS FOR THE GENERAL.
THANK YOU.
OKAY. I THINK PEOPLE ONLINE
SHOULD BE ABLE TO HEAR US. WE
HAVE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM AND
SPEAKERS FROM BOTH SESSIONS THIS
MORNING HERE AT THE FRONT READY
FOR QUESTIONS.
SO, I HAVE ONE QUESTION I
WILL GET A START THAT COMES FROM
JOHN NYE, WHO IS OUR DIRECTOR OF
THE BRAIN INITIATIVE AT NIH.
HIS QUESTION IS THAT OBJECTIVE
OR COMPUTER VISION APPROACHES TO
HELP PREDICT RECOVERY THAT WOULD
BE FORESEEN ON SEEMS PROMISING.
CAN SPEAKER COMMENT ON ETHICAL
IMPLICATIONS REGARDING FAMILY
AND SUPPORTING TREATMENT
REGIMENS?
>> THANK YOU. I EXPLAINED
BEFORE THAT ALL OF THE STUDIES
WE HAVE ARE IRB APPROVED AND
DEVICES USED BASED ON FDA
LABELING.
WE ALSO HAVE TWO -STEP CONSENTING
STRATEGY THAT IS BASICALLY
DISCUSSING WITH FAMILY MEMBERS
BOTH NEUROSURGEON AND RESEARCH
TEAM THAT DISCUSS WITH FAMILY
MEMBERS ABOUT THE PROCEDURE AND
BENEFIT AND RISK AND CAN I STOP
RIGHT THERE?
AND SO WHAT WAS THE REST OF THE
QUESTION?
>> SO, WHAT ARE ETHICAL
IMPLICATIONS GOING AND TELLING
THE FAMILY THAT WE DON'T SEE ANY
RESPONSES THAT WE THINK YOUR
DEAR 1 IS GOING TO DIE OR NOT
RECOVER.
>> PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT
PHYSICIANS HAVE THAT SEE ME AND
ALSO ELECTRICAL RESPONSES OF THE
BRAIN THAT YOU CAN PROVIDE TO
FAMILY MEMBERS AND THEN THEY CAN
DECIDE THAT IS WHAT THEY WANT TO
DO.
>> THIS PIECE OF INFORMATION
WILL BE PUT TOGETHER IN THE
CONTEXT OF ALL OTHER CLINICAL
LINES OF INFORMATION?
>> YEAH.
>> IT IS NOT A RESEARCHER THAT
IS INTERACTING WITH THE FAMILY.
>> NO.
>> IT WILL BE CLINICIANS.
>> YES.
>> SAME WITH MAR CELLO. DO YOU
SEE ETHICAL METHODS WITH YOUR
PROBLEM THAT ARE PREDICTING
RECOVERY.
>> I SEE INFORMATION AND NEED
FOR DEVELOPING FRAMEWORK OF
COMMUNICATION THAT IS VERY
IMPORTANT I THINK COLLABORATING
WITH PHILOSOPHER AND ETHICISTS
THAT WILL BE VERY, VERY
IMPORTANT.
AGAIN, I AGREE.
WE ARE REDUCING UNCERTAINTY AND
PUTTING TOGETHER AND ADDING MORE
INFORMATION.
NORMALLY, ALL TECHNIQUES SEE ME
AND PCI ARE THERE TO REVEAL MORE
THAN WHAT BEHAVIOR SHOWS THAT I
THINK IS ALSO AN ETHICAL NEED
THAT WE NEED TO FEEL AND PROBLEM
IS HOW DO WE COMMUNICATE THAT IN
FACE OF MAYBE POOR BEHAVIOR OF
OUTCOME.
>> YES.
>> AND JUST TO MENTION THAT WE
ALSO HAVE ETHICISTS, PHD
ETHICISTS ON THE TEAM THAT HELP
US WITH THESE QUESTIONS.
>> CAN YOU HEAR ME AND CAN I
FOLLOW UP ON THE QUESTION?
THIS IS JOHN HERE.
>> YES, PLEASE. WE ALL HEAR
YOU.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> THIS IS YOUR VOICE.
>> SORRY I GUESS WHAT I'M
GETTING AT I'M SURE I WOULD
IMAGINE FROM A CLINICAL
PERSPECTIVE THAT THE CLINICIAN
WOULD WANT TO USE AS MANY
DIFFERENT INPUTS OR POINTS OF
INFORMATION TO MAKE TO -- TO
INFORM THE CLINICAL DECISIONS
AND I'M ASKING AT A KIND OF
BROADER LEVEL THAT IS AT WHAT
POINT DO YOU THINK METHODS WILL
ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO -- HOW
RELIABLE COULD YOU GET METHODS
TO SAY IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF
YEARS OR 2 TO 5 YEARS AND
CERTAINLY I WOULD IMAGINE AS
WELL YOU WOULDN'T WANT TO MAKE A
DECISION TO WITHHOLD CARE BASED
ON ONE CRITERIA AND WHAT EXTENT
CAN YOU USE IT TO INFORM MORE
AGGRESSIVE CARE AND WHAT
THRESHOLD CAN YOU FOLKS IMAGINE
YOU WOULD NEED TO MAKE THESE
KINDS OF DECISIONS AND HOW
RELIABLE DO YOU THINK YOU COULD
GET THESE IN TERMS OF FALSE
POSITIVES AND NEGATIVES AND
THINGS LIKE THAT AND MIGHT BE
GREAT TO DISCUSS AFTER THE NEXT
SESSION AS WELL AND THOUGHTS ON
THAT FROM THE PANEL THAT I WOULD
REALLY APPRECIATE HEARING.
>> WE SEE ETHICISTS HERE IN THE
AUDIENCE THAT ARE SMILING AND
THAT IS A GREAT SUGGESTION.
MAYBE WE CAN DISCUSS A LOT MORE
AFTER THE NEXT SESSION.
ADDITIONAL COMMENTS BY SIMA OR
MAR CELLO ABOUT RELIABILITY AND
ACCURACY OF YOUR METHOD AND HOW
CONFIDENT ARE YOU THAT YOUR
METHOD IS WORKING?
>> SORRY GO AHEAD, SIMA.
>> I MEAN FOR SIMA, WE HAVE 26
PATIENTS AND WOULD BE MORE
CONFIDENT TO HAVE MORE PATIENTS.
YOU KNOW?
IT IS A THING THAT SHOWS YOU
MORE SIGNS OF RECOVERY THAT YOU
WOULD MISS.
SO, IT IS NOT SAYING, YOU KNOW,
IT IS IN A NET POSITIVE
DIRECTION AND MORE INFORMATION
UNDER RECOVERY AND IS BASICALLY
PEOPLE THAT WERE MISSED IF IT
WASN'T SEE ME, YOU CAN BASICALLY
SAY THAT NO THEY HAVE ACTUALLY
-- THEY CAN ACTUALLY UNDERSTAND
WHAT YOU ARE SAYING AND THEY ARE
TRYING TO MAKE A SMILE AND YOU
CANNOT JUST SEE IT BECAUSE YOUR
EYES ARE JUST -- DON'T HAVE THE
CAPACITY TO DETECT THAT BUT SEE
ME CAN DETECT THAT.
>> SIMA, YOU ARE SAYING THAT NIH
NEEDS TO SUPPORT YOU MORE.
>> YES.
>> SO YOU CAN GET MORE PATIENTS.
>> EXACTLY.
>> MORE MONEY IS EVEN.
>> YES.
>> I'M BASED IN ITALY AND HAVE
NO CONFLICT OF INTEREST HERE AND
DON'T GET ANY MONEY ANYWAYS, BUT
I WOULD SAY THAT, YEAH. I THINK
THAT AND I AGREE AGAIN THAT WE
ARE GAINING TERRAIN IN
SENSITIVITY. THAT WAS THE
PROBLEM.
AND IN THIS RESPECT, I THIS I
THAT WE HAVE CONFIDENCE.
LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, IN CASE OF
PCI94% IN CMS MEANS THAT YOU ARE
LIKELY TO BE VERY SENSITIVE IN
RESPONSIVE PATIENTS AS WELL.
WHAT IS DIFFICULT TO DEMONSTRATE
WITH TECHNIQUES, I THINK, AT
LEAST, IS THE ABSENCE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND IN GENERAL
ABSENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS IS
DIFFICULT TO DEMONSTRATE.
>> YEAH.
>> YOU GIVE MORE INFORMATION AND
MORE CONFIDENCE AND REDUCE
UNCERTAINTY AND DEMONSTRATING
ABSENCE IS VERY DIFFICULT WITH
FUNCTIONAL MARKERS.
>> YEAH. I -- YES. THANKS,
EVERYONE.
GREAT TO HAVE A FOCUSED
DISCUSSION ON THIS ISSUE, I
THINK.
I SUPPOSE THAT I HAVE TWO
THOUGHTS ON THE COMMUNICATION OF
UNCERTAINTY ISSUE.
I MEAN, ONE IS THAT IT SEEMS TO
ME THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE A
SHIFT AWAY FROM FREQUENT TIFT --
IN DIRECTION OF BAYESIAN
FRAMEWORK AIMING TO QUANTIFY THE
DEGREE OF EVIDENCE SO THAT THE
QUESTION BECOMES HOW MUCH
EVIDENCE IS THIS EEG READ-OUT
PROVIDING IN RELATION TO THE
POSSIBILITY OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
THEN YOU HAVE THE PROBLEM THAT
SOMETIMES THERE IS A BIT OF A
MISMATCH BETWEEN THE WAY THAT
BAYESIANS TALK ABOUT THESE
THINGS AND WHAT THE PUBLIC
UNDERSTANDS AND THERE IS I THINK
A VERY USEFUL THING THAT IS USED
A LOT IN UK GOVERNMENT CIRCLES
IS THIS IDEA OF A PROBABILITY
YARDSTICK WHERE YOU HAVE
STANDARDIZED FRAMEWORK FROM
MOVING FROM CONTINUOUS
PROBABILITIES TO QUALITATIVE
LANGUAGE IN AN AGREED WAY AND
SAYS THINGS LIKE DON'T USE THE
PHRASE REALISTIC PROBABILITY
UNLESS PROBABILITY IS IN THIS
RANGE OR PHRASE HIGHLY LIKELY
UNLESS IT IS OVER HERE IN THIS
RANGE AND I'M INTERESTED IN WHAT
YOU THINK ABOUT THAT.
IDEA THAT PART OF THE SOLUTION
HERE IS TO FIRSTLY MONTH OF TO A
MORE BAYESIAN WAY OF THINKING
ABOUT ISSUES AND SECOND WILL I
TO USE PROBABLY YARDSTICKS TO
COMMUNICATE WITH PATIENTS AND
FAMILIES.
>> IT -- IT IS AN INTERESTING
PERSPECTIVE AND THERE ARE
DISCUSSIONS EVEN ON HOW
COMBINING IN MEANINGFUL WAYS
THAT IS MEASURED AND SOME
MEASURES ARE VERY GOOD AT
DETECTING, YOU KNOW, BASIC
LEVELS OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND MCS
MINUS OR PLUS AND LIKE PCI,
REALLY, IT IS A SAFETY NET AND
ON TOP OF THAT YOU MIGHT HAVE
DIFFERENT DIMENSIONS LIKE IS THE
PATIENT ABLE TO ENGAGE IN
VOLITIONAL ACTIVITY OR ABLE TO
UNDERSTAND SEMANTIC NARRATIVE
LANGUAGE THAT IS EXECUTIVE
FUNCTION. SO, YOU KNOW, SHOULD
BE -- YEAH. IN THE FULL
ASSESSMENT THAT YOU SHOULD TAKE
ACCOUNT ALL THIS IN A MEANINGFUL
WAY AND WHETHER IT IS
PROBABILISTIC AND I DON'T KNOW.
I'M NOT EXPERT BUT IT MAKES A
LOT OF SENSE IN THE OVERALL
ASSESS
ASSESSMENT.
OF COURSE, WE HAVE TO HAVE A
DECISION WHETHER IT WILL BE A
YARDSTICK OR METER STICK.
JUST FRILL US.
>> HERE, IT IS A YARDSTICK.
YEAH. QUESTIONS OF ANY OTHERS?
MY SECOND QUESTION IS TO WHAT
EXTENT DO YOU SEE DISTINCTIONS
OF PBS AND NCS + AND NCS MINUS
THAT IS STILL BEING USEFUL IN
FACE OF INCREDIBLY DEG
GREYEDATED EVIDENTIARY PICTURE
AND SOME PEOPLE SAY WHAT THIS IS
ALL POINTING TO IS NEED TO MOVE
BEYOND THAT TERMINOLOGY AND TALK
BEYOND DISORDERS OF
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND ACCEPT THAT
IGNORANCE IS PROFOUND FROM
VEGETATIVE VERSUS MINIMALLY
CONSCIOUSNESS.
WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS?
>> YEAH.
>> YOU CAN'T SAY NO COMMENT BUT
YES COMMENT.
>> YEAH.
>> YES.
>> MAYBE CAN YOU REPHRASE THE
QUESTION?
JUST IN SHORT SO THE QUESTION IS
THAT WE HAVE THIS TAXONOMY WE
HAVE THIS.
>> HERE WE ARE USING TAXONOMY IN
YOUR TALK AND SAYING THAT AIM IS
TO TRY TO PLACE PATIENTS
CORRECTLY WITHIN THIS TAXONOMY
BUT THERE IS SORT OF A DIFFERENT
WAY TO GO HERE WHICH IS TO SAY
LET'S JUST HAVE THE CATEGORY OF
PROLONGED DISORDER OF
CONSCIOUSNESS.
AND DELIBERATELY AVOID TRYING TO
PUT LABELS ON PATIENTS BECAUSE
WHAT THIS EVIDENCE IS REALLY
TELLING US IS SOMETHING ABOUT
THE -- THE DANGER OF HAVING ANY
SORT OF FORM OF LABELING THAT
LABELS PATIENTS IS DEFINITELY
NOT CONSCIOUS.
>> YEAH. THIS IS TRUE IT IS
HAPPENING LIKE THE MORE WE KNOW
THE MORE THE GRANULARITY OF THIS
DEFINITION AND BEFORE NCS WASN'T
AN OPTION BEFORE 2002 AND SEEN
OKAY AND MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS AND
MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS PLUS OR
MINUS BECAUSE WE LEARN MORE AND
NOW HAVE COGNITIVE MODEL
DISASSOCIATION THAT IS ACTUALLY
HAPPENING AND WE STILL HAVE MANY
NAMES AND NEED TO DEVELOP, YOU
KNOW, A BETTER WAY OF, YOU KNOW,
DESCRIBING THIS CONTINUUM
SOMEHOW AND YEAH IT IS
HAPPENING.
>> WE GO TO ONLINE QUESTIONS.
>> WE HAD A QUESTION THAT WOULD
COME IN DURING DR. BLUMENFELDS
TALK AND QUESTION DURING
STIMULATED AROUSAL FROM SLEEP
STAGE AND 3, THE EVENT IS
REMEMBERED LATER. THE QUESTION
IS WERE THE PEOPLE COGNITIVELY
COHERENT AND/OR BEHAVIORALLY
RESPONSIVE DURING THE AROUSAL
ITSELF?
>> THANK YOU. GREAT QUESTION.
WE DIDN'T DO ANY KIND OF
BEHAVIORAL ASSESSMENTS DURING
THESE STIMULATIONS THAT IS DONE
REALLY FOR PURPOSES OF TIGHT
TRAITING THE STIMULATION
PARAMETERS TO SEE WHAT WOULD BE
EFFECTIVE IN PRODUCING AROUSALS
TO BE IN VENUES DURING SEIZURES
AND GREAT QUESTION. WE DON'T
HAVE ANY DATA TO ADDRESS THAT AT
THIS POINT.
>> SO, MY QUESTION IS FOR ALL OF
YOU. I WANTED TO HEAR YOUR
THOUGHTS ON THE REALLY CLINICAL
IMPORTANT TOPIC THAT CAME UP
YESTERDAY AND TOPIC OF
DISASSOCIATION.
AND I WANTED TO HEAR HOW YOU
THINK THESE IDEAS OF COMPLEXITY
OR DYNAMICS THAT YOU ARE
OBSERVING BETWEEN ANESTHESIA AND
WAKEFULNESS AND STATES WE
DISCUSSED THAT MIGHT RELATE TO
THAT AND I ASK IT IS A COMMON
PHENOMENON AND IT HAPPENS IN
EVERY-DAY LIFE AND GO BACK AND
FORTH BETWEEN MILD STATE
DISASSOCIATIONS AND MIND
WANDERING OFF THIS AND TO REALLY
SEVERE STATES OF DISASSOCIATIONS
WHERE PEOPLE CAN CAUSE CAR
ACCIDENTS BECAUSE THEY WERE
STUCK IN A MEN TALE STATE THAT
THEY COULDN'T GET OUT OF.
SO, I WAS WONDERING WHAT DO WE
KNOW ABOUT NEURODYNAMICS AND
ESPECIALLY IF THERE HAVE BEEN
ANY STUDIES OF PATIENTS WITH
EPILEPSY THAT MAY ALSO HAVE
EXPERIENCED A DISASSOCIATIVE
STATE IMPLANTED WITH ELECTRODES
AND HAS ANYONE LOOKED AT THAT
AND IF NOT DO YOU HAVE
SPECULATIONS HOW YOU MIGHT BE
ABLE TO UNDERSTAND AT NEURAL
LEVEL THIS PHENOMENON OF
DISASSOCIATION?
>> I DO EPT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT
THAT.
IT IS A FASCINATING QUESTION
THOUGH AND WORTH LOOKING INTO.
I KNOW THERE HAVE BEEN -- PEOPLE
HAVE LOOKED AT IT AND
[INDISCERNIBLE] LOOKED AT THEM
AND SOME RELATED QUESTIONS
HAVING TO DO WITH, YOU KNOW,
SELF-RECOGNITION AND, YOU KNOW,
YOU KNOW, OUT OF BODY
EXPERIENCES AND YOU KNOW BEYOND
THAT I DON'T -- AND THERE WERE
FINDINGS OF CHANGES IN PARIETAL
CORTEX AND VISUAL FRONTAL CORTEX
IN PATIENTS AND FASCINATING
QUESTION AND DON'T KNOW MUCH
MORE AND DO YOU HAVE THINGS TO
ADD?
>> I WILL TALK WITH KALINA LATER
ON AND DISAGREE WITH YOUR
LABELING OF MIND WANDERING AS A
DISASSOCIATIVE STATE AND MAYBE
WE CAN DISCUSS A LITTLE BIT
LATER.
>> SOME PEOPLE LIKE IT. YEAH.
>> RIGHT.
>> THANK YOU.
>> HI. EXCUSE ME. THANK YOU.
I WANTED TO RETURN TO DISORDERS
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND WE HAVE
THIS SORT OF COURSE GRAINED
NOTION RIGHT NOW THAT THE
DIAGNOSIS THAT IS SOMEWHAT
PREDICTIVE OF PROGNOSIS AND
BETTER PROGNOSIS IF IN MCS AND
VSUSUWS AND SO ON.
DO YOU THINK WORK ARE YOU DOING
IS MORE USEFUL FOR DIAGNOSTIC
PURPOSES OR FOR PROGNOSTIC
PURPOSES? IS WORK YOU ARE DOING
NOW GOING TO HELP US PREDICT
BETTER WHO WILL REMEMBER.
>> I THINK BOTH SEEMING AND
COMPLEXITY ANALYSIS COULD BE
USED FOR BOTH.
I MEAN, SEE ME I CAN SHOW IT CAN
PREDICT RECOVERY 10 DAYS EARLIER
THAN CRS AND WE HAVE DONE
COMPLEXITY ANALYSIS OR
COMPLEXITY ANALYSIS WHEN I DID
-- SO, WE RECORD AND HAVE THIS
CONTINUOUS RECORDINGS OF THE
BRAIN AND, YOU KNOW, OVER DAYS
AFTER ETRODE IS IMPLANTED AND
WHEN I CALCULATE COMPLEXITY, I
CAN SEE INCREASE BY LEVEL OF
ARROWS OF UNCONSCIOUSNESS IN THE
PATIENT AND WANT TO SEE WHAT
YOUR EXPERIENCE IS I CAN SEE
COMPLEXITY GOES UP AS PATIENT IS
RECOVERING CONSCIOUSNESS.
>> YEAH. THIS IS VERY
INTERESTING.
SO, PRIMARY IDEA THAT WE HAD IN
MIND WAS DIAGNOSIS.
SO, HERE AND NOW.
WE THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR
-- FOR MANY REASONS.
BUT, THEN WE UNDERSTOOD THERE
WAS ALSO PROGNOSTIC ASPECT TO
IT. PROGNOSIS, I DON'T THINK IT
IS SO MUCH IN SHORT TERM
RECOVERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS BUT
RECOVERY OF -- SHOWING THAT
COMPLEXITY CAN BE HIGH IN THE
PATIENT THAT SHOWED
CONNECTEDNESS WAS I FROM THE
VERY BEGINNING FROM PARIETAL
STIMULATION THAT THE PATIENT WAS
ABLE TO RUN THE TASK IN THE
SCANNER AND UNABLE TO SHOW
BEHAVIORALLY AND THEN IMPROVED
BEHAVIOR THAT EMERGED IN NEW
STAGE AND WAS ABLE TO
[INDISCERNIBLE] IN THE MODEL AND
AT THAT POINT COMPLEXITY, YOU
KNOW, GREW IN THE FRONT.
SO, THERE IS REGIONAL ASPECT TO
IT. I THINK UNDERSTANDING AND
THIS MECHANISM IS VERY
IMPORTANT.
AS FOR AS PROGNOSIS GOES, YES.
SHORT-TERM, DEFINITELY. WE SEE
THAT. LONG TERM AS FAR AS I'M
CONCERNED WITH INTERNAL MEASURES
OF COMPLEXITY AND I'M TALKING
FUNCTIONAL RECOVERY, MOTOR
RECOVERY AUTONOMY AND QUALITY OF
LIFE DIFFICULT TO SAY. BY
DEFINITION OUR MEASURE BYPASSES
BEHAVIOR AND WHY IT IS GOOD AND
THEN IT DOESN'T TELL YOU MUCH
ABOUT WHETHER MULTISYSTEMS ARE
RECOVERED OR NOT BUT ABOUT
CONSCIOUSNESS, YES.
>> SIX MORE MINUTES MAX FOR THE
DISCUSSION.
SIX MORE MINUTES MAX.
SO, SHORT QUESTIONS AND SHORT
ANSWERS, PLEASE.
>> SHORT ANSWERS DON'T ALWAYS
GIVE YOU INSIGHT. WHAT I WAS
GOING TO SAY IS THIS HAS BEEN A
GREAT SESSION AND REALLY WANT TO
THANK EVERYONE. ONE THING
BECOMING CLEAR TO ME AND CURIOUS
ABOUT YOUR IMPRESSIONS, YOU
KNOW, THERE IS A SEARCH OF
NEUROCORRELATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS
AND SEEMS TO BE DISAGREEMENTS
ABOUT NEUROCORRELATES OF
UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND DIFFERENT
THINGS MIGHT BE GOING ON IN
SLEEP, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT MIGHT
BE DEEP SLEEP IN UNCONSCIOUS
STATE VERSUS UNCONSCIOUSNESS
THAT ARISES FROM ANESTHESIA AND
WANT TO TURN TO THE ISSUE OF
ROLE OF NEUROMODULATORS IN
EFFECTING THIS ACEILLE CHOLINE
CAN WAKE UP RODENTS FROM
[INDISCERNIBLE] FLOURINE AND YOU
HAVE SHOWN DATA HOW LOOKING AT
ACETYLCHOLINE IN ORBITAL FRONTAL
CORINNE DECHL CAN YOU TELL ABOUT
DIFFERENCE OF ROLE OF
NEUROMODULATORS AND GETTING AT
MEASURES OF COMPLEXITY WHAT
WOULD GO ON IF YOU ARE GIVING
ACETYL FLOURINE AND ACETYL
CHLORINE AND ANIMAL IS WAKING UP
AND ALSO UNDER INFLUENCE AND
CURIOUS ROLE OF NEUROMONTHED
LATORS AND ROLE OF COMPLEXITY IN
THE CONTEXT OF THE KIND OF
EXPERIMENTS THAT WERE DESCRIBED.
>> GO AHEAD.
>> SUPER QUICK, I THINK THAT
NEUROMODULATION IS AN ENABLING
FACTOR THAT IS SOMETHING UNIQUE
LIKE BLOOD FLOW IS KEY.
THEN COMPLEXITY IS
[INDISCERNIBLE] AND
NEUROMODULATION ITSELF IS NOT
ENOUGH AND IS CLEAR. WE SEE
THAT. BUT YOU NEED IT.
THAT IS -- YOU KNOW, THAT IS
SIMPLE AND, YOU KNOW, VERY SHORT
ANSWER WHAT WE SEE AND THIS IS
THE KIND OF RELATION WE SEE.
>> I WILL JUST SAY A QUICK
COMMENT THAT IS THAT I THINK THE
ROLE OF ALL OF THE
NEUROMODULATORS IS VASTLY
UNDERESTIMATED AND THINK THERE
IS -- INTERESTING THING IS IT IS
NOT JUST ONE SYSTEM AS YOU KNOW
AS WE ALL KNOW ACETYLCHOLINE AND
NOREPINEPHRINE AND DOPAMINE AND
[INDISCERNIBLE], ET CETERA.
EACH OF THEM PLAYS CERTAINLY
PLAYS DIFFERENT ROLES IN
INTERACTING IN VERY COMPLEX WAYS
AND SO UNDERSTANDING HOW ALL
THESE TOGETHER SYNERGISTICALLY
AND DIFFERENTIALLY EFFECT
DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF COMPLEXITY
AND OF THE NETWORKS IS A WIDE
OPEN FIELD AND THINK THAT THEY
HAVE ALL BEEN STUDIED
INDIVIDUALLY FOR MOOD REGULATION
AND FOR, YOU KNOW, ALL OTHER
QUESTIONS AND REALLY NOT SO MUCH
IN THE SORT OF DETAILED ASPECTS
HOW THEY CONTRIBUTE TO
MODULATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
>> YEAH.
>> I WOULD PUSH BACK A LITTLE
BIT ALSO ON THE IDEA THAT
UNCONSCIOUS AND WHAT IS
DIFFERENT IN CORTEX WHEN YOU ARE
UNCONSCIOUS DURING SLEEP IS
DIFFERENT.
AGAIN, IT IS FROM WHAT IS
HAPPENING DURING ANESTHESIA AND
AS MAR CELLO SAID ENABLING
FACTOR MIGHT BE DIFFERENT AND
SUBCORTICAL FACTORS MIGHT BE
DIFFERENT AND IN CORTEX I
HAVEN'T SEEN EVIDENCE THERE IS
DIFFERENCE AND WHAT OUR WORK
SHOWS IS THERE IS LOTS OF
SIMILARITY WHAT IS GOING ON IN
CORTEX AND COURTI CO THALAMIC
CIRCUITS.
>> VERY QUICK QUESTIONS.
WHO GIVES COMMAND TO OPEN EYES?
DOCTOR OR RELATIVE OR FAMILY
MEMBER FOR EXAMPLE AND COULD
THERE BE A DIFFERENCE? SECOND
IS VERY QUICKLY FOR YOU TO IS
REGARDING BEING IN NEW YORK AND
I'M SURE LOTS OF PEOPLE'S FIRST
LANGUAGE IS DIFFERENT AND
COMMENT IS GIVEN IN ENGLISH OR
TO GIVE IN FIRST LANGUAGE.
>> SO, GREAT QUESTIONS.
SO, THE WAY THAT WE HAVE IT
RIGHT NOW IS AUTOMATED MACHINE
THAT BASICALLY COMPUTER ASKS THE
PATIENT OPEN YOUR EYES.
SO, PRE-RECORDED VOICE OF, YOU
KNOW, WE HAVE -- AND THAT
COMPUTERS PLAY WITH CERTAIN
TIMING AND BLOCKS OF TIMINGS AND
GUESS IF WE DO FAMILY MEMBERS,
THAT PROBABLY IS MORE EFFECTIVE
AND WE HAVE NOT DONE IT THOUGH.
BECAUSE THAT WOULD ALSO
INTEGRATE A COMPONENT OF
EMOTIONS AND MEMORIES.
>> YEAH.
>> THAT IS -- YOU KNOW, THAT IS
MISSING MAYBE.
>> YEAH. THAT IS WHY I WAS
THINKING AND ALSO WITH REGARD TO
LANGUAGE AND WAKING UP FROM
ANESTHESIA PEOPLE TRY TO GO TO
FIRST LANGUAGE IF PATIENT IS NOT
WAKING UP; RIGHT?
>> WE HAVE ENGLISH AND SPANISH
AND GREEK AND HAVE TRANSLATED
SEE ME TO THESE THREE AND
DEFINITELY WE THINK THAT.
>> THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
>> USING YOUR FIRST LANGUAGE.
>> AND RELATIVE RIGHT PROBABLY
POSSIBLE WOULD BE --
>> YEAH.
>> SIMA, IS IT POSSIBLE TO USE
THESE COMPUTATIONAL METHODS TO
HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER DO SOME
RANDOM VOICE RECORDING AND YOU
BASICALLY ASK COMPUTER TO
TRANSLATE THE VOICE INTO THAT
FAMILY MEMBER'S VOICE SO THAT
YOU CAN USE SIMILAR AUTOMATIC
TRANSLATION KIND OF THING?
>> LIKE A DEEP FAKE BASICALLY.
>> YEAH.
>> WHY NOT?
>> OKAY.
>> YES. I HAVE A COMMENT AND
QUESTION. COMMENT IS I THINK
THIS WAS A VERY BEAUTIFUL
SESSION THIS MORNING RESTORING
LOTS OF THE COMPLEXITY OF
THAT'LL MAL CORTICAL LOOPS
INVOLVED IN CONSCIOUSNESS AND
CIRCUITS AND FINE BRAIN DETAILS
OF THE CIRCUITS AND THANK YOU
VERY MUCH FOR A BEAUTIFUL
MORNING AND IF YOU MIGHT
REMEMBER WE STARTED WITH WHAT I
THOUGHT WAS A VERY FRUSTRATING
AND SIMPLISTIC IDEA WE NEED
SINGLE EXPERIMENT AND THOUGHT
OUT SERIES IN BACK OF THE BRAIN
AND FRONT OF THE BRAIN AND THIS
MORNING SAW IT IS NEITHER AND IS
MUCH MORE INTERESTING AND IN
FACT IN THE IN MOSSIMO'S WORK WE
FIND WE CAN HAVE LOT OF
CONVERGENCE AND THERE IS
CROSS-LAB CONVERGENCE AND IF
THERE IS A SERIES OF
COMPUTATIONS UNFOLDING IN A
CENTRAL WORKSPACE WE WILL SEE
COMPLEXITY OF SIGNALS IN THIS
NOTION OF TIME AND THIS NOTION
OF COMPLEXITY IS I THINK FITTING
WITH TWO MOTHERS THAT WE HAVE
BEEN PROPOSING WITH GIULIO AND
CAN AGREE THIS WOULD BE A GOOD
MEASURE AND QUESTION TO MOSSIMO
DO WE HAVE NEED TO TMS? I ASKED
YOU THIS BEFORE AND WOULD LOVE
TO SEE DATA COULD WE HAVE EITHER
MEASURE OF INTERNAL UNFOLDING OF
ACTIVATION WE DO WHEN WE DO
RESTING STATE ACTIVITY OR
EXTERNAL AUDITORY STIMULATION
AND THIS LOCAL AND GLOBAL
PARADIGM.
WOULD THE RESULTS BE HIGHLY
CONVERGENT ACROSS THESE THREE
WAYS BASICALLY TO MEASURE
COMPLEXITY UNFOLDING EVENT IN
THE BRAIN?
>> THANK YOU. REALLY.
SO, YEAH. THE REASON THAT
EMPIRICAL CONVERGENCE IS A GOOD
THING BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE ARE
ALL INTERESTED IN PATIENTS AND
WE -- I THINK THAT AT THE END OF
THE DAY IS GOOD THAT THESE
COMPLEXITY MEASURES MAYBE WOULD
BE, YOU KNOW, I'M SURE
COMPLEXITY MEASURES AT SOME
POINT WOULD BE PROVED WRONG IN
SPECIFIC CASES AND OVERALL IS
GOOD.
AND I THINK THAT THIS IS REALLY,
YOU KNOW, AN IMPORTANT SIGN.
THEN, YOU KNOW, ABOUT THE PER
TUR BASING AND THERE, AGAIN,
THEORETICAL ASPECTS COME A
LITTLE BACK INTO PLAY AND PERTER
BASING IS HEAVILY SPIKED IN
TRAJECTORY BY IIT BECAUSE IIT IS
PERTER BASING AND CAUSAL EFFECT
IS WHAT MATTERS AND THERE IS
INTEGRATION INFORMATION PART AND
ALSO NEED TO EXPLORE WHAT THE
SYSTEM CAN DO RATHER THAN WHAT
IT DOES.
THIS IS A KEY DIFFERENCE.
SO, I THINK THAT OBSERVING
DYNAMICS TELLS A LOT ABOUT THE
SYSTEM AND YOU NEED TO -- SO
DYNAMIC FOREVER AND ASSUMING IT
GOES TO OR POSSIBLE STATES AND
CAUSALITY AND INTERACTION IS NOT
OBSERVED BY THESE AND WHY I
THINK PERTURBATIONS ARE USEFUL
IN THEORETICAL FRAME AND THEY
TAKE THIS INTEGRATION VERY
SERIOUS AND COULD BE
APPROXIMATED YES. THAT IS POINT
I MAKE AND THERE ARE SPONTANEOUS
MEASURE AND PERTER BASING
MEASURE AND IN TERMS OF
SPECIFICITY WE WILL GET OVER
TERMS AND PER TER BASINGS SHOW
VERY HIGH VARIABILITY I THINK
BECAUSE THEY -- YOU KNOW, IT IS
CAUSAL AND ABOVE AND BEYOND WHAT
IS HAPPENING AND MANY
CONFOUNDING PRACTICE AND I WOULD
BE HAPPY TO SEE THAT SPONTANEOUS
MEASURE IS BETTER THAN PER TER
BASING THAT WOULD BE EASIER AND
MAYBE WILL HAPPEN AND YEAH.
THIS IS MY TAKE ON IAKE ON IT.
>> I THINK YOU HAVE GOT A LOT
MORE INFORMATION OUT OF THOSE
TYPES OF MODELS AND NOT SURE
THAT CAUSALITY IS SAME CAUSALITY
THAT MAR CELLO IS TALKING ABOUT
AND THINK THERE IS A LOT MORE
INFORMATION CERTAINLY.
>> I THINK WE SHOULD GIVE PEOPLE
A 10 MINUTE BREAK HERE FOR THE
NEXT SESSION AND THANKS TO THIS
MORNING'S SPEAKERS AND PREPARING
FOR NEURO ETHICS SECTION COMING
UP AT QUARTER PAST THE HOUR.
GOOD AFTERNOON, EVERYBODY. MY
NAME IS NINASHU PROGRAM CO-LEAD
AND THE BRAIN NEUROETHICS
WORKING GROUP, I WILL BE
MODERATING OUR NEXT SESSION
WHICH I THINK HOPEFULLY WILL
INTEGRATE THE THEMES WE HEARD
FROM SCIENTIFIC DISCOVER RACE
AND THINK ABOUT THE ETHICAL
IMPLICATIONS FOR NEUROETHICS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH AND AI.
WE HAVE THREE WONDERFUL
SPEAKERS. OUR FIRST SPEAKER IS
DR. SID JOHNEN SO, PHILOSOPHER
AND NEUROETHICIST AT THE CENTER
FOR BIOETHICS AT SUNY UNIVERSITY
AND UP STATE HOSPITALS. SHE IS
ASSOCIATE EDITOR FOR NEUROETHICS
AND A MEMBER OF THE NIH BRAIN
INITIATIVE NEUROETHICS WORKING
GROUP. DR. JOHNSON'S BOOKS
INCLUDE THE ETHICS OF
UNCERTAINTY, ENTANGLED ETHICAL
AND EPISTEMIC RISKS AN ETHICSES
IN NON-HUMAN ANIMALS. HER
RESEARCH IS ANIMAL EVENTICS AND
BRAIN INJURIES INCLUDING BRAIN
DEATH AND DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. HER TALK IS
ENTITY AND UNCERTAINTIES ETHICAL
IMPLICATIONS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
>> THANK YOU, NINA. THANKS TO
JIM FOR KEEPING THE TRAINS
RUNNING ON TIME TODAY, DESPITE
THE HICCUPS WE HAVE HAD.
YESTERDAY WAS A VERY LONG DAY
AND I'M SURE WE ARE WELL I THINK
MANY OF US HAVE TO RUN OFF TO
THE AIRPORTS AND SO ON AS DO I.
SO I HAVE NO DISCLOSE INSURES SO
NO DISCLOSE INSURE SLIDE, I'M AN
ETHICIST AND AREAS OF
SCHOLARSHIP ARE BRAIN INJURIES
AND ANIMAL ETHICS AND ETHICS OF
RESEARCH WITH ANIMALS SO I WILL
TRY TO CONNECT THOSE DOTS TODAY
BECAUSE I THINK THEY ARE VERY
MUCH CONNECTED, THOUGH I MAY BE
IDIOSYNCRATIC IN MY THINKING
THERE. I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO TALK
ABOUT AI TO THE EXTENT THAT I
CAN. AND I WILL TRY TO CONNECT
THAT WILL DOT AS WELL. I THINK
ONE OF THE CONNECTIVE TISSUES IN
ALL OF THESE IS THE
IDENTIFICATION OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
SO MY PLAN IN KEEPING WITH THE
THEME OF THIS SESSION, IS TO
TALK ABOUT TWO QUESTIONS OR
PROBLEMS, ONE IS THE
DISTRIBUTION QUESTION WHICH IS
PUT SIMPLY, ABOUT THE
DISTRIBUTION OF CONSCIOUSNESS OR
WHICH ENTITIES ARE CONSCIOUS.
TYPICALLY FUNCTIONING ADULT
HUMANS ARE PARADIGM CASE OF A
CONSCIOUS ENTITY AMONG HUMANS
THOUGH THERE ARE DIVERSITY OF
PERSONS PERSONS WITH DISORDERS
OF CONSCIOUSNESS, INFANTS,
PRE-TERM INFANTS, CHILDREN WITH
HYDRO ENCEPHLY ORAN ENCEPHLY,
ALL OF WHO IT IS REASONABLE TO
ASK IF THEY ARE CONSCIOUS. AND
THERE IS ALL THE NON-MAMMAL
ANIMALS. INSECTS FISH, MOLLUSK,
CRUSTACEANS M PERHAPS THE STURDY
TOWARDEGRADE. THEN THERE'S AI.
ABOUT WHICH THERE ARE QUESTIONS
REGARDING THE VERY POSSIBILITY
OF CONSCIOUSNESS EMERGING AT
SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE. THE
SECOND PROBLEM IS THE MORAL
STATUS PROBLEM. WHICH IS
SIMILARLY A DISTRIBUTION
PROBLEM. WHAT ENTITIES MATTER
MORALLY. IT IS STANDARD ACROSS
MANY MORAL THEORIES TO THINK
THAT SENTIENTS OR CONSCIOUSNESS
IS SUFFICIENT FOR AN ENTITY TO
MATTER MORALLY, FOR IT TO HAVE
INTEREST AND WELL BEING THAT
MATTER TO ITSELF. IN PRACTICE IT
IS NEVER JUST CONSCIOUSNESS. IT
IS TYPICALLY CONSCIOUSNESS PLUS
SOME OTHER TRAITS, TRAITS THAT
TYPICALLY FUNCTION IN ADULT
HUMANS HAPPEN TO HAVE, LIKE
MORAL AGENCY, AUTONOMY
COMMUNICATION, FREE WILL.
SOPHISTICATED COGNITIVE AND
PSYCHOLOGICAL CAPACITIES,
PROBLEM SOLVING, SELF-AWARENESS,
AND YOU CAN SEE HOW NEUROSCIENCE
MIGHT HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY
ABOUT THESE AS WELL. QUITE A FEW
OF THESE SHOWED UP IN
YESTERDAY'S TALKS. THERE ARE NO
PROPERTIES, TRAITS OR
CHARACTERISTICS UNIQUE TO HUMANS
EXCEPT OUR SPECIES. MANY OF
THESE PROPERTIES TRAITS AND
CHARACTERISTICS ARE NOT FOUND IN
NON-TYPICALLY FUNCTIONING
HUMANS. LIKE INFANTS OR SOMEONE
WITH ADVANCED ALZHEIMER'S FOR
EXAMPLE. NONETHELESS
CONSCIOUSNESS AND WELFARE AND
MORAL STATUS WITH FREQUENTLY
LINKED CONSCIOUSNESS IS
SEEMINGLY REQUIRED TO ASCRIBE
POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE VALUE TO
ONE'S OWN STATES. CAUSING HARM
TO CREATURES WHO CAN SUFFER IS
MORALLY WRONG GENERALLY AND
REQUIRES JUSTIFICATION. FOR COB
CHAZAN MALLS AND PRACTICE WE SEE
CONSCIOUSNESS AND MORAL STATUS
DECOUPLED FREQUENTLY. WE HEARD
ABOUT A LOT OF RESEARCH BEING
PERFORMED ON CONSCIOUS MAMMALS
IN THIS MEETING. WHEN YOU
CONSIDER THE USE OF ANIMALS FOR
FOOD PRODUCTION THE NUMBERS ARE
VASTLY HIGHER. SO FOR WELFARE
RELATED POLICIES, REGULATIONS,
AND LAWS, CONSCIOUSNESS OR
SENTIENTS MATTERS MINIMALLY AND
WE CONTRIBUTE THE MINIMALIZATION
THERE TO HUMAN EXCEPTIONALISM.
HUMAN EXCEPTIONALISM LOOKS LIKE
THIS. BACK IN THE EARLY 2000S
RESEARCHERS WERE STARTING TO DO
WORK THAT INVOLVED IMPLANTING
HUMAN BRAIN TISSUE INTO MOUSE
BRAINS, CREATING SO CALLED
CHIMERIC MICE OR THE HUMAN
NEURON MOUSE. THERE WAS A LOT OF
HAND RINGING ABOUT THIS IN THE
NEUROETHICS LITERATURE, SINCE
THEN THERE'S BEEN LOTS OF
RESEARCH COOING THIS IN A
VARIETY OF ANIMALS. WITH RESULTS
THAT HAVE BEEN FAIRLY STRIKING,
BOTH IN TERMS OF THE INTEGRATION
OF THE HUMAN TISSUE IN SOME
CASES TAKING OVER LARGE PARTS OF
THE BRAIN. AND FUNCTIONAL
DIFFERENCES SO MICE THAT APPEAR
SMARTER AND LEARN FASTER. WHAT
NEUROETHICISTS SAID AT THE TIME
WAS NOTEWORTHY BECAUSE WHAT GOT
PEOPLE WORKED UP ABOUT THE
RESEARCH WAS THE POSSIBILITY OF
CREATING A HUMANIZED MOUSE. SO
THIS QUOTE SAYS A VARIETY OF
THINGS. THE MOUSE BRAIN IS
SIGNIFICANTLY SMALLER THAN THE
HUMAN BRAIN, MOUSE BRAINED ARE
ORGANIZED DIFFERENTLY, THE
PROPORTION OF BRAIN COMPOSED OF
NEOCORTEX IS HUGELY GREATER IN
HUMANS. NEUROSCIENTISTS BELIEVE
THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE BRAIN
PRODUCES CONSCIOUSNESS, A MOUSE
BRAIN MADE UP OF ENTIRELY HUMAN
NEURONS WOULD STILL BE A MOUSE
BRAIN IN SIZE AND ARCHITECTURE
AND THUS COULD NOT HAVE HUMAN
ATTRIBUTES INCLUDING
CONSCIOUSNESS. SO THE POINT THAT
MICE ARE NOT CONSCIOUS IS
STRIKING. THIS KIND OF ARGUMENT,
ONE BASED ON THE NEURAL
ARCHITECTURE OF SOME ANIMAL
BRAIN IS STILL COMMON. IT IS
USED TO ARGUE AGAINST FISH
SENTIENTS FOR EXAMPLE AS I WILL
TALK IN A LITTLE BIT. BUT ASIDE
FROM CARVING OUT THIS EXCEPTION
FOR HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS THERE IS
ALSO THIS UNWARRANTED SKEPTICISM
ABOUT MOUSE CONSCIOUSNESS OR
AWARENESS OR SOME KIND OF
UNSTATED ASSUMPTION THAT IT
WOULD BE INFERIOR IN SOME
MORALLY RELEVANT WAY TO HUMAN
CONSCIOUSNESS. SO THE CONCERN
ABOUT HUMANIZING THE MOUSE IS A
CONCERN ABOUT MAKING THE MOUSE A
CREATURE WE HAVE TO CARE ABOUT.
THE WORRY ABOUT HUMANIZED MOUSE
WAS REALLY ABOUT INTRODUCING
HUMAN NEUROTISSUE WHERE THE
IDEAS THAT THE HUMAN BRAIN AND
ITS COMPONENTS MAKES HUMANS
EXCEPTIONAL. ALL WHICH IS AN
EXAMPLE OF MOVING THE GOAL
POSTS, WE DON'T NEED TO WORRY
ABOUT MOUSE CONSCIOUSNESS, JUST
HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS. WHATEVER IT
IS. SO BACK TO THE DISTRIBUTION
PROBLPROBLEM. THERE ARE SEVERAL
CHALLENGES TO IDENTIFYING
CONSCIOUSNESS IN DIVERSE SPECIES
AND IN AI. PETER MENTIONED
YESTERDAY THE PARALLEL IN
INDEPENDENT EVOLUTION, THE
PRESENCE OF NON-HOMOLOGOUS AND
ANALOGOUS BRAIN STRUCTURES IN
OCTOPUS FOR EXAMPLE, THE
PHYLOGENETICALLY DISTANCE THE
LESS HOMOLOGOUS THE BRAINS GET.
WHEN YOU LOOK AT OCTOPUSES THEY
ARE INCREDIBLY COMPLEX AND SMART
CREATURES WHOSE BRAINS ARE
SQUISHY AND CAN BE COMPRESSED
WITHOUT INJURY UNLIKE OUR BRAINS
WHICH ARE VERY TENDER AND HAVE
TO BE ENCASED IN A HARD SHELL.
THE OCTOPUS IS VERY END BRAINED
AND THE ARMS SEEM TO THINK, ARMS
ARE RICH IN NEURONS UNLIKE OUR
RELATIVELY STUPID ARMS. IF YOU
ARE PERSUADED ONLY HUMAN LIKE
BRAINS AND CENTRAL NERVOUS
SYSTEMS CAN GIVE RISE TO
CONSCIOUSNESS, OR THE RIGHT KIND
OF CONSCIOUSNESS, YOU ARE GOING
TO HAVE TO RULE OUT ANY ANIMAL
WITH A BRAIN THAT IS NOT
SUFFICIENTLY SIMILAR. WHAT
COUNTS AS SUFFICIENTLY SIMILAR
IS THEN A PROBLEM YOU SHOULD BE
THINKING ABOUT. WE ALSO RELY ON
INFERENCES FROM BEHAVIORAL
EVIDENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS NOT
JUST IN ANIMALS BUT ALSO IN
HUMANS. AS WE HAVE JUST HEARD.
ANIMAL BEHAVIORS ARE OFTEN
POORLY UNDERSTOOD AND CAN BE
MULTIPLY REALIZABLE LIKE HUMAN
BEHAVIORS AND CAN BE CONSCIOUS
AND UNCONSCIOUS. THE BEHAVIORAL
TESTS CONTROVERSIAL IN ANIMALS
ARE FREQUENTLY USED, WE USE
BEHAVIORAL TESTS IN HUMAN, TESTS
IN INFANT BEHAVIOR AND RESPONSES
THE BEDSIDE BEHAVIORAL EXAM USED
IN PATIENTS WITH DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. SO DESPITE
DIFFERENCES IN BRAIN STRUCTURE
WE FREQUENTLY THOUGH SEE VERY
SIMILAR BEHAVIORS IN DIVERSE
SPECIES LIKE WOUND TENDING WHICH
IS SOMETHING HERMIT CRABS DO.
HERMIT CRABS ARE PRETTY FAR FROM
THE PRIMATE FAMILY TREE BUT THEY
ENGAGE IN MOTIVATIONAL TRADE
OFFS WHEN AN ELECTRICAL SHOCK IS
ADMINISTERED ENCOURAGING THEM TO
EVACUATE THEIR SHELL, THEY WILL
TRADE OFF COMPETING DEMANDS LIKE
THE QUALITY OF THEIR CURRENT
SHELL, THE INTENSITY OF THE
NOXIOUS STIMULUS, AND OLFACTORY
QUEUES THAT INDICATE PRESENCE OF
PREDATORS. THESE ARE LIKE THE
KINDS OF THINGS THAT HUMAN IN
D.C. MIGHT DECIDE IF THEY WANT
TO MOVE TO A DIFFERENT
APARTMENT. SO WE HAVE-DEEP
METHOD LOGICAL PROBLEM. WE DON'T
HAVE A CONSENSUS ON THE
METHODOLOGY FOR IDENTIFYING
CONSCIOUSNESS IN NON-HUMANS.
HERE IS A COUPLE OF FAMILIAR
EXAMPLES SOME WHICH HAVE BEEN
DISCUSSED HERE DURING THIS WEEK
THE MIRROR SELF -RECOGNITION TEST
IS A TEST OF SELF-WARENESS
THOUGH GORDON GALLUP WHO
IDENTIFY OR DEVISED THE TEST
DENIES THAT IT IS. SEVERAL
SPECIES AND TAXA PASSED THIS
TEST INCLUDING CHIMPANZEES
DOLPHINS OR DAS HORSES, PIGEONS
MAG PIES AND THE CLEAN SMALL
REEF FISH. I THINK IT IS REALLY
INTERESTING THAT MARINE ANIMALS
WHO HAVE EVOLVED THIS ABILITY IT
ALSO INVOLVED IN AN ENVIRONMENT
WITHOUT REFLECTIVE SURFACES.
THIS TEST IS PRONE TO FALSE
NEGATIVES. DOGS ARE LESS ATTUNE
TO VISUAL QUEUES THAN TO
OLFACTORY ONES, THAT FAIL THE
TEST. SOME ANIMALS MIGHT NOT
CARE IF THEY HAVE A NOVEL MARK
ON THEIR BODIES. SOME ANIMALS
INITIALLY RESPOND SO QUICKLY AND
IMPRESESSIVELY TOWARDS A MIRROR
EGRESSTIVELY THEY NEVER GHETTO A
POINT THEY RECOGNIZE IT IS A
REFLECTION. CAN'T BE TRAINED ON
MIRRORS. EXPERIMENTS OF PAIN, OR
SENTIENT SIMILARLY CAN BE
CONTROVERSIAL, ONE POINT IS
DIVERSITY OF BRAINS, SO THE
DENIERS OF FISH PAIN FOR EXAMPLE
WILL CLAIM FISH CAN'T FEEL PAIN
BECAUSE THEY LACK THE NEURAL
STRUCTURE FOR PAIN. THE
STRUCTURE FOUND IN HUMANS. SO
DEDUCTIVE INFERENCES ARE A KIND
OF ARGUMENT FROM DISANALOGY BUT
THE RESEARCH ON FISH PAIN LOOKS
AT BEHAVIORS. APPLY A PAINFUL
STIMULUS, OBSERVE THE FISH
BEHAVIOR, THE FISH WILL BREATHE
FASTER, IT WILL RUB THE AFFECTED
SITE WHICH ARE TYPICAL PAIN
BEHAVIORS THEY DON'T ENGAGE IN
NORMAL ANTI-PREDATOR BEHAVIOR
WHEN THEY ARE IN PAIN BUT THEY
RESPOND TO ANALGESIA LIKE
MORPHINE AND LIDOCAINE AND THEY
HAVE OPIOID RECEPTORS. SO FROM
THIS INFERENCE TO THE BEST
EXPLANATION WE CAN INFER FISH
FEEL PAIN. THEY ALSO ENGAGE IN
LOTS OF INTERESTING AND COMPLEX
BEHAVIORS INCLUDING SOME THAT
INVOLVE MEMORY AND SOCIAL
LEARNING, RECOGNITION OF OTHERS
AND COOPERATION, SOME WHICH HAVE
BEEN FOUND BY ECONOMISTS WHO
DIED AND WATCHED THEM. THE
CLINICAL DIAGNOSTIC EXAM FOR
DISORDERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS IS
ALSO A BEHAVIORAL TEST THAT
LOOKS FOR VOLUNTARY
NON-REFLEXIVE BEHAVIORAL
RESPONSES TO VARIOUS STIMULI IN
PATIENTS WITH DISORDERED
CONSCIOUSNESS, MARCELLO
EXPLAINED THIS BEAUTIFULLY THIS
MORNING AND ALSO NOTED THERE HAS
BEEN FOR SEVERAL DECADES A
PERSISTENT RATE OF MISDIAGNOSIS
OF UNCONSCIOUSNESS IN THESE
PATIENTS WHICH IS ESTIMATED TO
BE BETWEEN 39 AND 43%. THAT'S
FOUR OUT OF TEN PATIENTS, WHO
ARE CONSCIOUS AND MISDIAGNOSED
AS UNCONSCIOUS. THE RATE IS
PROBABLY HIGHER. I AM SPEAKING
TO THE DIRECTOR OF THE NEURAL
REHABILITATION CENTER IN HOUSTON
AND HE TOLD ME THAT OF THE
PATIENTS WHO COME INTO HIS
FACILITY, ABOUT 98% ARE
MISDIAGNOSE WHEN THEY ARRIVE. SO
SOME OF THE BEHAVIORS WE LOOK
FOR ALLOW FOR STRONG INFERENCES
OF CONSCIOUSNESS, SO
INTELLIGIBLE VERBALIZATION,
FUNCTIONAL OBJECT USE, OBJECT
LOCALIZATION, SOME OF THE TESTS
LIKE THE TESTS IN THE VISUAL SUB
SCALE VISUAL FIXATION, VISUAL
PURSUIT, ARE ALSO CONSIDERED TO
BE BEHAVIORS INDICATIVE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS BUT FAILURE TO
DETECT FIXATION AND PURSUIT HAVE
BEEN IDENTIFIED AS LEADING TO
MISDIAGNOSIS. ONE DUCK STUDY
FOUND IN 39% OF PATIENTSES WHO
WERE MISDIAGNOSED VISUAL PURSUIT
AND VISUAL FIXATION WAS
UNDETECTED IN MORE THAN HALF OF
THEM. SO HERE IS THE ETHICAL
PARALLELS WITH THE SITUATION
WITH ANIMALS AN AI. THERE IS A
LONG, LONG HISTORY OF CLAIMS
THAT PATIENTS WITH DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS EITHER LACK MORAL
STATUS OR HAVE DIMINISHED MORAL
STATUS BECAUSE OF THEIR
DIMINISHED CONSCIOUSNESS. SO
BACK IN THE '70s JOSEPH
FLETCHER A BIOETHICIST AND
THEOLOGIAN SAID THE VEGETABLE
PATIENT NO MATTER HOW MANY
SPONTANEOUS VITAL FUNCTIONS IS
DEAD, A NON-PERSON. JEFF MCMAHAN
A COUPLE DECADES LATER SAID IN
MANY CASES IN WHICH THE PATIENT
ENTERS A PERSISTENT VEGETATIVE
STATE WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THE
PERSON HAS DIED OR CEASED TO
EXIST. MORE RECENTLY, LEVY AND
(INDISCERNIBLE) CLAIM IT IS
SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH
REQUIRES ACCESS CONSCIOUSNESS
THAT MATTERS FOR PERSON HOOD.
INDIVIDUALS WITH ONLY PHENOMENAL
CONSCIOUSNESS LIKE THOSE IN THE
MCS MIGHT BE SENTIENT AND HAVE A
LOW GRADE OF MORAL STATUS AKIN
TO WHAT WE HAVE ACCORDED TO
ANIMALS. IN STUDIES OF PUBLIC
BELIEFS AND ATTITUDE ABOUT THE
VSUWS, MANY PEOPLE CONSIDERED
THESE PATIENTS TO BE MORE DEAD
THAN DEAD PEOPLE. AND HAVE LESS
MENTAL CAPACITY THAN THE DEAD.
OUR INABILITY TO RELIABLY
IDENTIFY CONSCIOUSNESS IN HUMANS
WITH THESE DISORDERS IS VERY
CONSEQUENTIAL. MACHINES AND
AIs CAN MIMIC BEHAVIORS,
HUMANOID ROBOTS CAN MIMIC HUMAN
BEHAVIOR, AMYLOID ROBOTS LIKE
THE TERRIFYING DOG BOTS THAT
BOSTON DYNAMICS MAKES CAN MIMIC
ANIMAL BEHAVIORS ALSO MIMIC
VERBAL REPORTS WHICH ARE USED
EXTENTSIVELY IN CONSCIOUSNESS
AND PERCEPTION RESEARCH IN
HUMANS. SO AD DUCKTIVE
INFERENCES, ARGUMENTS FROM
ANALOGY AND BEHAVIORS ARE
EXTENTSIVELY USED TO TEST FOR
CONSCIOUSNESS IN BOTH ANIMALS
AND NON-VERBAL NON-TYPICALLY
FUNCTIONING HUMANS. AND WE KNOW
THAT IN THOSE HUMANS WE ARE
WRONG, QUITE OFTEN AND WE SHOULD
ALSO ASSUME WE ARE PROBABLY NOT
GOING TO BE VERY RELIABLE WHEN
IT COMES TO NON -HUMANS. FOR A, I
THINK ALL BETS ARE OFF. THIS IS
A ROBOT THAT I SAW AT DULLES
AIRPORT A FEW YEARS AGO. IT
BELONGED TO A RESTAURANT, I
WATCHED FOR A FEW HOURS WHILE
WAITING FOR MY FLIGHT. I WAS
MAD ON THIS ROBOT BEHALF THAT IT
WAS FORCED TO WE ARE A JERSEY
FOR THE D.C. FOOTBALL TEAM WHICH
AT THE TIME STILL HAD RACIST
NAME PEOPLE MOSTLY IGNORED THIS
ROBOT AND IT KIND OF LOOKED SAD.
I'M A ROBOT SYMPATHIZER. I WILL
LAY MY CARDS ON THE TABLE. I
NAMED ANY ROOMBA, ITS NAME IS
FLUFFY. FLUFFY SENDS MESSAGES TO
MY PHONE ALL THE TIME SAYING
THAT IT IS STUCK ON A CLIFF. I
DO NOT HAVE CLIFFS IN MY HOUSE.
I DON'T THINK FLUFFY IS
CONSCIOUS OR LYING ABOUT THE
CLIFFS, IT DOES SOMETIMES
ACCURATELY REPORT BEING STUCK
ELSEWHERE WHICH ALSO HAPPENS
QUITE FREQUENTLY. MACHINES AND
AI DON'T HAVE A BRAIN, NOT A
BIOLOGICAL BRAIN. AT BEST IT IS
A BRAIN BY FUNCTIONAL ANALOGY.
SO THE OTHER STRATEGY FOR
FINDING CONSCIOUSNESS IN ANIMALS
WHICH IS TO LOOK FOR HOMOLOGOUS
BRAIN STRUCTURE IS ALSO OFF THE
TABLE. BUT THEIR ABILITY TO
MIMIC HUMAN BEHAVIOR INCLUDING
VERBAL REPORTS IS A SERIOUS
EPISTEAMIC CONFOUND. IF AI TELLS
US THEY ARE HAPPY OR IN LOVE OR
SAD, DO WE BELIEVE IT? IF A CHAT
BOT TELLS US THAT IT IS
CONSCIOUS DO WE BELIEVE IT? OUR
FUTURE COULD HAVE FULL OF LAWFUL
ROBOTS WHO CAN'T LIE OR COULD BE
FILLED WITH PSYCHOTIC MACHINES
RAISE ON REDDIT AND 4 CHAN. SO I
SUSPECT THAT IF CONSCIOUSNESS
EMERGES IN A MACHINE WE WON'T
RECOGNIZE IT. THERE ARE LIKELY
FALSE POSITIVES AND FALSE
NEGATIVES, THERE ARE ALREADY
PEOPLE WHO CLAIM THAT THERE ARE
CONSCIOUS AIs IN THE WORLD. SO
WHAT TO DO? WE HAVE SEVERAL
PROBLEMS RELATED TO RELIANCE ON
BEHAVIORS, IN ANIMALS WE DON'T
UNDERSTAND THEIR BEHAVIORS OR
RECOGNIZE THEM AS CONSCIOUS IN
HUMANS WITH DISORDERED BRAINS,
BEHAVIORS CAN BE QUITE
UNRELIABLE AS A TEST OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. AI AND MACHINE
ARE MIMICKING OUR BEHAVIORS WELL
ENOUGH SOME PEOPLE ARE ALREADY
CONVINCED THAT THEY ARE
CONSCIOUS. ALL THESE SCENARIOS
PRESENT US WITH EPISTEMIC AND
ETHICAL RISKS. SO THE CONCEPT
OF INDUCTIVE RISK IS USEFUL TO
US HERE, THAT COMES FROM
PHILOSOPHY OF SCIENCE, KICKING
AROUND SINCE 1950s AND IS
WOEFULLY UNDERUSED AS A
PRINCIPAL FOR MANAGING
UNCERTAINTY. I DISCUSS IT IN MY
BOOK ON DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. SO THE IDEA IS
THERE ARE INTERACTING EPISTEMIC
AND ETHICAL RISKS WHEN WE ACCEPT
A SCIENTIFIC HYPOTHESIS. IF OUR
EXPERIMENTAL HYPOTHESIS AS FISH
DO NOT FEEL PAIN THE EPISTEMIC
RISK IS THE RISK THAT WE ARE
WRONG. THE ETHICAL RISKS ARE
THOSE ETHICALLY SIGNIFICANT
CONSEQUENCES OF BEING WRONG. IN
OUR EXPERIMENT IF WE ARE WRONG,
THE FISH IS A LITTLE EXPERIENCE
PAIN AND BE HARMED. SO WAGNER
BACK IN THE 50s PROVIDED WHAT
I CALL THE PRINCIPLE OF
INDUCTIVE RISK WHICH ARE
EPISTEMIC RISK TAKING SHOULD BE
CONSTRAINED BY THE ETHICAL RISKS
OF BEING WRONG. HIGH ETHICAL
RISKS SHOULD LIMIT THE
ACCEPTABLE EPISTEMIC RISKS. HOW
RISKY IS OUR RELIANT ON THE JFK
COMA RECOVERY SCALE FOR
DIAGNOSING DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, DIAGNOSING
CONSCIOUSNESS S. RISKY GIVEN 40%
OF MISDIAGNOSIS BUT ETHICALLY
RISKY AND CONSEQUENTIAL SO GIVEN
THE ETHICAL RISK WE SHOULD BE
LESS WILLING TO TAKE EPISTEMIC
RISKS AND LESS TOLERANT OF THOSE
RISKS. WE SHOULD TRUST THE TEST
LESS EVEN THOUGH IT IS KIND OF
WHAT WE HAVE RIGHTS NOW. SO THIS
IS A PRINCIPLE AMONG OTHER
THINGS OF EPISTEMIC DUTIES. SO
BACK TO THE FISH. WE HAVE
EXISTING EVIDENCE OF DIVERSE
HOMOLOGOUS NON-HOMOLOGOUS
NERVOUS SYSTEMS ACROSS SPECIES
AND TAXA PLUS PAIN BEHAVIORS IN
FISH, COMPLEX NON-REFLEXIVE
BEHAVIORS IN FISH BUT FISH LACK
A NEOCORTEX. THEIR BRAINS ARE
NOT LIKE PARADIGM MAMMAL BRAIN F
WE ARE WRONG FISH DO NOT
EXPERIENCE PAIN THEN OUR
EXPERIMENTAL FISHES COULD SUFFER
OR THE OCTOPUS SUBJECT TO THE
SAME PAIN STIMULUS AND INJECTION
OF ASEEDIC ACID. IS THAT ENOUGH
TO CONSTRAIN EPISTEMIC RISK
TAKING? I THINK.
SO ONE THING YOU WILL NOTICE IS
INDUCTIVE RISK INDEXES EPISTEMIC
RISK TAKING TO ETHICAL RISKS BUT
DOESN'T CONSIDER WHETHER OR NOT
THE RESEARCH IS BENEFICIAL TO
ANYONE SO IT WOULD PERMIT LOW
EPISTEMIC AND LOW RISK RESEARCH
PURELY CURIOSITY DRIVEN WHERE
MAIN BENEFITS MIGHT BE EPISTEMIC
BUT NOT HIGH RISK RESEARCH WITH
EPISTEMIC BENEFITS. THE LEVEL
OF EPISTEMIC RISK DEPENDS IN
PART RIGHTLY ON WHAT WE ALREADY
KNOW. SO INDEXING EPISTEMIC RISK
O THE ETHICAL RISKS OF BEING
WRONG REQUIRES UNDERSTANDING
BOTH OF THOSE RISKS. INCLUDING
HARMS TO SUBJECTS, AND THAT IS
AN EPISTEMIC DUTY OF SCIENTISTS.
EPISTEMIC RESPONSIBILITIES
REQUIRES ACTING ON ETHICALLY
RELEVANT INFORMATION AND THAT IS
AN ETHICAL DUTY TO REVISE OUR
ETHICS IF REQUIRED. I THINK THE
PRESENCE OF EPISTEMIC RISK AND
ETHICAL RISKS CALLS ON US TO
FIND WAYS TO LIMIT BOTH. BOTH
TYPES OF RISK IN RESEARCH BY
FINDING NEW METHODS FOR
INVESTIGATING QUESTIONS ABOUT
CONSCIOUSNESS, EXPERIMENTS ON
NON-VERBAL TASK PERFORMING
INFANTS WE HEARD YESTERDAY WHOM
WE REALLY DID NOT WANT TO HARM.
THERE ARE MANY EPISTEMIC
QUESTIONS ABOUT NON-HUMAN
CONSCIOUSNESS AND SENTIENTS. WE
HAVE LOTS OF QUESTIONS ABOUT
HUMANS IN LINE WITH WHAT
JONATHAN SAID YESTERDAY WE OUGHT
TO KNOW WHAT WOULD BE ROBUST
EVIDENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
SENTIENTS AN VARIOUS ENTITIES
AND WE OUGHT TO BE COMMITTED TO
ACCEPTING AND ACTING ON THAT
EVIDENCE IF WE FIND IT.
CONSCIOUSNESS IS LIKE THE AIR WE
BREATHE. WE ARE ABSOLUTELY
SURROUNDED BY CONSCIOUSNESS
CREATURES AND WE DON'T SEE THEM.
NOT THE FIRST TO NOTE THE
POSSIBILITY THAT CONSCIOUS AI
WILL BE TREATED MUCH LIKE WE
TREAT THE MAJORITY OF CONSCIOUS
ANIMALS AND HUMANS OF UNCERTAIN
CONSCIOUSNESS BUT WE HAVE
OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE ON THE
BURDENS OF EPISTEMIC AND ETHICAL
OBLIGATIONS AND RETHINK ALL
THOSE INTERACTIONS. THANK YOU.
>> IT IS A RACE.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH. MY
QUESTION IS THIS, SINCE SO MUCH
DEPENDS ON THE DEFINITION OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, CAN YOU SUM UP
FOR US, THAT IS WHAT THIS IS
ABOUT, CAN YOU SUM UP FOR US HOW
MUCH PROGRESS YOU THINK WE HAVE
MADE SINCE THE DEMISE OF THE
PHILOSOPHICAL APPROACH TO
DEFINEING WHAT THE HUMAN BRAIN
AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS AND THE
ASCENDNESS OF WHAT WE HAVE BEEN
HEARING IN THIS CONFERENCE WHICH
IS EXPERIMENTAL PHYSIOLOGICAL
ASCEND ENSAY OF CONSCIOUSNESS?
THE
>> HOW MUCH PROGRESS WE HAVE
MADE, I HAVE NO IDEA. IT DEPENDS
WHETHER OR NOT WE GET TO THE
RIGHT ANSWER. I MEAN, I'M A
PHILOSOPHER SO I AM FAR MORE
IMMERSED IN THE PHILOSOPHICAL
THEORIES AND LESS SO IN THE
NEUROSCIENTIFIC THEORIES BUT
ALSO MY WORK IS PRIMARILY ON
DISORDERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS SO I
HAVE A PERHAPS PRACTICAL
ORIENTATION ON THAT. I THINK WE
HAVE SOME EVIDENCE FOR BOTH
APPROACH, THE BET HAS NOT YET
BEEN WON AND I'M NOT CONVINCED
LOOKING FOR CORRELATES IS GOING
TO BE THE RIGHT APPROACH. THE
WORK WE HEARD ABOUT THIS MORNING
ON DISORDERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS IS
FASCINATING NEE THE SORT OF
OBJECTIVE MEASURES THAT WE ARE
LOOKING FOR TO TRY TO DETECT
CONSCIOUSNESS AND I THINK THERE
HAS BEEN SOME GOOD PROGRESS
THERE.
>> I WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THE
STUDY OF EPISTEMIC RISK TAKING.
THIS CASE OF DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, SO WE SHOULDN'T
TRUST -- SHOULDN'T FACE TOO MUCH
TRUST IN THESE BEHAVIORS TESTED
USE. THERE ISN'T A REASON WHY WE
SHOULD FACE TOO MUCH TRUST IN
THEM, THE VERY HIGH RATE OF
DIAGNOSIS. . MISDIAGNOSIS. SO
THE REASON NOT TO TRUST THE TEST
IS AN EPISTEMIC REASON
FUNDAMENTALLY, THESE SEEM TO BE
SAYING THAT THE ETHICAL HIGH
STAKES GIVE US ADDITIONAL REASON
NOT TO TRUST IT OR REASON TO
TRUST IT LESS. THAT BIT I DIDN'T
REALLY UNDERSTAND.
>> YEAH. SO I THINK THAT ONE
USEFUL WAY TO THINK ABOUT
INDUCTIVE RISK IS ALSO TO SORT
OF FLIP IT OVER AND INDEX OUR
ETHICAL RISK TAKING TO OUR
EPISTEMIC RISK TAKING. SO THE
HIGHER RISK THE TEST IS OR THE
MORE LIKELY IT IS TO GIVE US AN
INCORRECT ANSWER SHOULD START TO
LIMIT THE ETHICAL RISK TAKING
THAT WE ARE WILLING TO TOLERATE
AND IN THE CASE OF PATIENTS WITH
IN COMA, PATIENTS DIAGNOSED AS
IN THE VSUWS THERE IS A STRONG
LIKELIHOOD OF WITHDRAWING
TREATMENT IN THOSE PATIENTS AND
THAT IS ETHICALLY RISKY OR CAN
BE VERY ETHICALLY RISKY. WE
COULD BE RIGHT BUT WE COULD ALSO
BE WRONG. PRACTICALLY SPEAKING I
THINK PEOPLE WHO ARE MAKING
DECISIONS FOR THESE PATIENTS
NEED TO UNDERSTAND EPISTEMIC
RISKS OF THE TESTING AS THEY
UNDERTAKE THE ETHICAL RISKS OF
MAKING DECISIONS FOR THOSE
PEOPLE. THANK YOU.
>> OUR NEXT SPEAKER DR. JOSEPH
FINS IS THE WILLIAM DAVIS JR.
M.D. PROFESSOR MEDICAL ETHICS AT
WEILL CORNELL MEDICINE
CO-DIRECTS CONSORS CHUM FOR
ADVANCED STUFF THE OF BRAIN
INJURY AT WEILL CORNELL AND
ROCKEFELLAR UNIVERSITY, AT YALE
LAW SCHOOL THE SOL MAN CENTER
DISTINGUISHED SCHOLAR IN ED MANY
SIN BIOETHICS AND THE LAW AND A
VISITING PROFESSOR. THE AUTHOR
OF THE BOOK RIGHTS COME TO MIND
BRAIN INJURY ETHICS AND STRUGGLE
FOR CONSCIOUSNESS, DR. FINS IS
ELECTED TO NATIONAL AKEYPAD MY
OF MEDICINE, THE AMERICAN
ACADEMY OF ARTS AND SCIENCES AND
THE ROYAL NATIONAL ACADEMY OF
SPAIN. NEUROETHICS DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS AND DISABILITY
RIGHTS. THE NORMATIVE CHALLENGE
OF COVER CONSCIOUSNESS.
>> -- COVERT CONSCIOUSNESS.
>> THANKS FOR THE INVITATION TO
THE NIH FOR THEIR SUPPORT HERE
AND ELSEWHERE. BEFORE I START I
WANT TO MAKE ONE CLARIFY MANAGE
COMMENT ABOUT THE COLON RECOVERY
SCALE WHICH IS IMPORTANT TO
STATE THAT STUDY OFTEN CITED
ABOUT THE 41% ERROR RATE WAS
DONE BY THE PERSON WHO CREATED
THE COMA RECOVERY SCALE WITH
CAROLYN (INDISCERNIBLE) AND IT
WASN'T SO MUCH THE EPISTEMIC
DEFAULT OF THE DEFICIT OF THE
TEST, BUT RATHER THE NIHILISM
AND MISATTENTION TO THIS
POPULATION. SO THEY ACTUALLY
FOUND PEOPLE WHO WERE IN THE
MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS STATE WHEN
THEY REINTERROGATED THEM BUT NOT
EVALUATED. THAT WAS THE
DIAGNOSIS THEY CAME INTO THE
NURSING HOME WITH. THESE WERE
PEOPLE LIMITED TO PEOPLE WHO HAD
TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY IN
NURSING HOMES SO IT IS A
REFLECTION OF THE NIHILISM, IT
IS A SOCIAL DEFICIT VERSUS AN
EPISTEMIC DEFICIT ABOUT THE
TEST. IT IS IMPORTANT TO
APPRECIATE THAT. SO WHAT I WANT
TO DO IS TALK ABOUT DISCOVERING
COVERT CONSCIOUSNESS AND THEN
COVER CONSCIOUSNESS CAN BE TWO
SORTS, ONE, BIOLOGICAL, WE DON'T
SEE IT, THE OTHER IS SOCIO
LOGICAL BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT TO
SEE IT. WE DON'T CARE ABOUT
THESE PEOPL PEOPLE. IN THAT REGI
TOTALLY AGREE WE MARGINALIZED
THIS POPULATION. WHEN THEY TOLD
US WE WOULD TALK AI I SAID I
KNOW NOTHING ABOUT AI BUT I GOT
CREATIVE SO I WANTED TO SAY CMD
MEETS AI SO LIKE AN ALPHA SET
SOUP. CMD IS COGNITIVE MOTOR
DISSOCIATION WHICH IS WHAT
(INAUDIBLE) HAS CALLED A COVER
CONSCIOUSNESS, WHICH GOES ALL
THE WAY FROM MCS ALL THE WAY UP
TO LOCK AND STATE, A BROAD
CATEGORY. AND I WANTED TO TALK
ABOUT THAT IS DEFINING IT AS A
DISCORDANCE BETWEEN BEHAVIORS WE
SEE THE TRADITIONAL BASIS OF
EVALUATION AND WHAT IS HAPPENING
AS IT WERE UNDER THE HOOD ON
IMAGES OR BIOELECTROPHYSIOLOGIC
BIOMARKERS AND THE DISCORDANCE.
I WANT TO TALK ABOUT ETHICAL CMD
WITH AI AND A PERFECT STORM FOR
PROBLEMS GIVEN PAST HIRY OF
DISORDERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS,
MARGINALIZATION OF POPULATION,
THE CLOSE ADHERENCE TO
ESTABLISHMENT OF THE RIGHT TO
DIE IN CASES LIKE QUINALAN AND
THE LIKE AND THE CLIMATE USE OF
AI I WILL LIMIT BY USE OF AI AS
ASSISTIVE DEVICE, A ASSISTIVE
TOOL HELP LANGUAGE GENERATION,
FOR THAT'S PEOPLE WHO ARE LOCKED
IN THEIR HEADS IF LOCKED IN OR
OTHERWISE LOCKED IN H THEY CAN'T
COMMUNICATE, GIVING THEM ABILITY
TO BE MORE FLUENT MORE FLUENT
THAN I AM RIGHT NOW, MORE FLUENT
WITH THEIR LANGUAGES IS REALLY
IMPORTANT AND YOU CAN THINK
ABOUT CHATGPT AND ONE OF THESE
PATIENTS AND WHAT KIND OF
LANGUAGE CONTENT THEY PRODUCE
AND I THINK THAT GIVEN THE
BIASES THAT EXIST IN IN THE
DATABASE WE ARE CALLING UPON
COULD BE PROBLEMS, WILL HAVE
SOME EXAMPLES OF THAT TALKING
ABOUT THE UNINTENDED
CONSEQUENCES SO WHERE DO WE ALL
START? WE HAVE TO START WITH
THIS PAPER WHICH I COMMEND TO
EVERYBODY TO READ WHICH IS THE
ORIGINAL PAPER THAT FRED PLUM
AND BRIAN JEANETTE ALSO
RESPONSIBLE JEANETTE FOR THE
GLASS COCOA MA SCALE AND FRED IS
ALSO RESPONSIBLE IN 1966, MY
TEACHER FOR THE LOCKED IN STATE
SO TWO GIANTS OF NEUROSURGERY
AND NEUROLOGY AND THEY WROTE
THIS PAPER IN THE LANSETT OF A
WITHOUT A NAME, THE PERSISTENT
VEGETATIVE STATE. THERE -- IF
YOU READ IT FRANK WAS A
BRILLIANT EDITOR, THERE IS A
LINE IN THERE, WHO SAYS IT SEEMS
WAKEFULNESS WITHOUT AWARENESS.
IT SEEMS WAKEFULNESS WITHOUT
AWARENINGS, HE NEVER USED AN
EXTRA HE DIDN'T NEED AND THIS
WORD SEEMS SUGGEST IT IS
POSSIBILITY THAT WE DON'T KNOW
THERE COULD BE BE COVERT
CONSCIOUSNESS, WE ONLY KNOW WHAT
WE ARE OBSERVING BASED ON
BEDSIDE BEHAVIORAL METRIC. IT
INFERS THE POSSIBILITY OF COVER
CONSCIOUSNESS OR COGNITIVE MOTOR
DISSOCIATION. IT ALSO SUGGESTS
THAT IT SAYS WAKEFULNESS WITHOUT
AWARENESS SOUNDS LIKE
UNRESPONSIVE WAKEFULNESS
SYNDROME SO THE PROVIDENCE FOR
THAT PHRASE IS HERE AND
EVERYTHING WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
SHOULD HAVE NOT USE UNRESPONSIVE
WAKEFULNESS SYNDROME BECAUSE ALL
THE PEOPLE HAVE COVERT
CONSCIOUSNESS MAYBE BEHAVIORALLY
UNRESPONSIVE IN WAKE BUT MAYBE
UNRESPONSIVE IN NEUROIMAGING OR
ELECTROPHYSIOLOGICAL WAY. SO
VERY PROBLEMATIC TERM. THE FIRST
MAJOR STUDY THAT ILLUSTRATED
THIS DISCORDANCE WHAT YOU SEE AT
THE BEDSIDE AND ON EXAM WAS THIS
BRILLIANT PAPER BY ADRIENNE, O
WHEN THAT WAS IN SCIENCE IN 2006
A YOUNG WOMAN 25, IN A CAR
ACCIDENT CARRIED THE BEHAVIORAL
DIAGNOSIS OF BEING IN THE
VEGETATIVE STATE, AND SAID TO
THEM IMAGINE PLAYING TENNIS,
IMAGINE WALKING THROUGH YOUR
HOUSE, AND SHE LIT UP MOTOR
STRIP AND SPATIAL NAVIGATION
AREAS OF THE BRAIN. AND THIS
SHOW WAS ENTITLED DECKING
AWARENESS IN VEGETATIVE STATE
WHICH IS PROBLEMATIC BECAUSE
WAKEFUL AND RESPONSIVENESS IS IN
MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS STATE OR
ABOVE. SO - THE FIRST
ILLUSTRATION OF COVERT
CONSCIOUSNESS, AND IN 2015 NICO
SHIV MY COLLEAGUE, COGNITIVE
MOTOR DISSOCIATION FROM OCS TO
LOCKED IN STATE. THAT STARTED IN
THE CHRONIC CARE SECTOR, BUT
MIGRATED INTO THE INTENSIVE CARE
UNIT AS WE HEARD ABOUT EARLIER
THIS MORNING THIS AFTERNOON, AND
(INDISCERNIBLE) WROTE PAPER IN
BRAIN, PAPER HE AND I WROTE
TOGETHER TALKING THE USE OF
NEUROIMAGING IN THE
NEUROINTENSIVE CARE UNIT AND YOU
CAN SEE THAT THERE IS AN
INCREMENT FROM THE GLASGOW COMA
SCALE TO THE COMA RECOVERY SCALE
WHICH IS BETTER THAN THE GLASGOW
COMA SCALE, IF YOU HAD
NEUROIMAGING YOU GET INCREASE
YIELD ON THE ACCURACY OF THE
DIAGNOSIS. YAN CLAUSESEN
FOLLOWED IN 2019 NEW ENGLAND
JOURNAL OF MEDICINE AT COLUMBIA
AND OTHERS AND THEY DID EEG AND
PEOPLE UNRESPONSIVE AND THEY
FOUND THAT 14% PEOPLE WERE
ACTUALLY RESPONSIVE WHEN THEY
WERE GIVEN A VOLITIONAL TEST;
ALL VOLITIONAL TESTS MUCH LIKE
IMAGINE WALKENING YOUR HOUSE,
PLAYING TENNIS AND IT TURNED OUT
PROGNOSTICALLY THERE WAS A
QUESTION EARLIER THIS MORNING
DID THE PEOPLE WHO HAD A
POSITIVE TEST ON RESPONSE TO EEG
ACTUALLY DID BETTER A YEAR
LATER. BUT IT IS CONFOUNDED
BECAUSE PEOPLE ALSO TOLD THE
FAMILIES AND MORE HOPEFUL AND
THEY DIDN'T WITHDRAW CARE. SO
WHETHER IT WAS BIOLOGICAL, OR
CONTEXTUAL IT IS HARD TO TEASE
OUT. WHAT I WANT TO DO IS TAKE
CND AND CONNECT IT TO AI. I WILL
LIMIT AI SIMPLY TO LANGUAGE
GENERATION, THIS IS A PAPER THAT
I WROTE PUBLISHED WITH MY LAW
STUDENTS AT YALE, PUBLISHED IN
HARVARD JOURNAL OF LAW IN
TECHNOLOGY ABOUT USING BCI TO
GIVE VOICE TO THE PATIENT AND
THIS IS A PICTURE HERE FOR THOSE
WHO READ BY BOOK ABOUT NANCY AND
MAGGIE WHO IS A YOUNG WOMAN WHO
HAD THE MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS
STATE WHO WAS USING AN EYE
TRACKING DEVICE. YOU CAN THINK
ABOUT IT SAYS CA AND ALL OF A
SUDDEN GENERATES C FOR CAT BUT
SHE MIGHT WANT CAN OR A CAR OR
MIGHT WANT SOMETHING ELSE SO
THAT IS A SIMPLE ILLUSTRATION
HOW GENERATION OF THE
INTELLIGENCE OF THE MACHINE
COULD SUPERSEDE THE INTENT OF
THE PERSON USING THE DEVICE. BUT
IT CUB FAR MORE COMPLICATED AS
WE WILL SEE. SO THIS IS A PAPER
FROM MEREDITH WHIT TEAR WHO WAS
AT MICROSOFT IN NYU TALKING
ABOUT DISABILITY BIAS AND AI.
SHE SAID DISABLED PEOPLE HAVE
BEEN SUBJECT TO HISTORIC AND
PRESENT DAY MARGINALIZATION. AND
SUCH PATTERNS OF MARGINALIZATION
ARE IMPRINTED IN THE DATA THAT
SHAPES AI SYSTEMS. WE HEARD A
LOT ABOUT THAT RECENTLY. MACHINE
LEARNED MODES OF MODERATE
CONVERSATION CLASSIFY TEXT WHICH
MENTIONED DISABILITY IS MORE
TOXIC SO IF THESE MACHINES AS
THEY MATURE ARE DRAWING UPON
THESE DATABASES WHICH HAVE THE
RACIAL BIAS, WE HAVE HEARD ABOUT
SEX, WE HEARD ABOUT HOMOPHOBIA,
WE HER OTHER BIASES ENTRENCHED
IN THESE DATABASES, THAT IT IS A
NORTHERN NOT GLOBAL PERSPECTIVE
IN THE AI, YOU CAN SEE HOW THIS
COULD GENERATE A BIAS. THE
INTERSECTIONALITY OF BIAS, GETS
WORSE BECAUSE OF WHAT SYD WAS
TALKING EARLIER, SUPPORTS PEOPLE
WITH BRAIN INJURY, AS I HAVE
WRITTEN IN MY BOOK AND
ELSEWHERE, THE RIGHT TO DIE WAS
ESTABLISHED ON THE BACKS OF THE
VEGETATIVE STATE. THIS IS A
PICTURE OF KAREN ANN QUINALAN
AND THE NEGATIVE RIGHT TO BE
LEFT ALONE WAS ESTABLISHED IN
THE FUTILITY OF THE VEGETATIVE
STATE AND IN FRANK TESTIMONY TO
JUDGE THE CHIEF JUDGE NEW JERSEY
SUPPORT WAS A LOSS OF A
COGNITIVE MOTOR -- COGNITIVE
SAFETY AND STATE THAT BECAME A
MORAL WARN TO REMOVE LIFE
SUPPORT. IT WAS THAT LOSS THAT
SAID THE STATE HAS NO EXTERNAL
COMPELLING INTEREST THAT COMPEL
KAREN INTERESTINGLY TO ENDURE
THE UNENDURABLE IF SHE IS RUELY
VEGETATIVE SHE IS NOT ENDURING
BUT IT IS WHAT FAMILIES ARE
ENDURING BARING WITNESS TO THIS
VISUAL, ONLY THE VEGETATE A FEW
MORE MEASURABLE WITH NO REAL
POSSIBILITY OF RETURNING TO
COGNITIVE OR SANCTITITY OF LIFE.
OVER THE YEARS THE CONSEQUENCES
OF QUINALAN HAS BEEN TO
ESTABLISH A RIGHT TO DIE,
CONSIDERED THE LAND MARK RIGHT
TO DIE CASE. PHYSICIANS BECAME
ACCULTURATED TO THE RIGHT TO DIE
AND VEGETATIVE STATE BECAME
RESULT ULTIMATE IN BRAIN
FUTILITY, NOTHING CAN OR SHOULD
BE DONE, THE INJURIES FELT
IMMUTABLE.
WHEN I KNOW INTERVIEWED 50
FAMILIES WITH LOVED ONES OF
DISORDER OF CONSCIOUSNESS, THEY
ENCOUNTERED A DISINTERESTED
HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, THERE WAS A
STEREOTYPIC TRAJECTORY OF
NEGLECT AND KNIEVEL NIHILISM,
THE PRESUMPTION THAT BRAINS
NEVER GET BETTER EARLY DECISIONS
TO WITHHOLD CARE AND PREMATURE
PALLIATIVE CARE RECOMMENDATIONS
HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE
LANGUAGE YOU FIND IN THE
LITERATURE, FROM DR. (INAUDIBLE)
HEARD OF NEURAL ICU AT MAYO AND
IT IS A DESCRIBED AS THE FAMILY
CONFERENCE END OF LIFE
GUIDELINES FOR COMATOSE
PATIENTS. BY COMATOSE IS THE
FIRST 14 DAYS OR SO AFTER A LOSS
OF CONSCIOUSNESS. IT IS NOT
FOREVER, IT IS THE EYES CLOSE
STATE OF UNRESPONSIVENESS BUT WE
KNOW ALL THIS, AT THAT EARLY
JUNCTURE TO TALK ABOUT THE
FUTILITY, FAMILIES WHO ARE
UNCONVINCED SHOULD BE TOLD THEY
HAVE MARKEDLY DIMINISHED
EXPECTATIONS THAT WITHDRAW LIFE
SUPPORT AS MORE COMMENSURATE
THING TO DO. SO IT IS EARLY ON
AND PRETTY MUCH VERY
DECLARATIVE. SYSTEMATIC DATA
FROM CANADA, SHOWED THAT SOME
32% OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE A TBI DIE
BUT 70% OF THOSE DEATHS ARE
ACCOUNTED FOR BY DECISION TO
ALTER THE NATURAL HISTORY AND
WITHDRAW LIFE SUSTAINING
THERAPY, REFLECTIVE OF THE BIAS.
NOW TURNING TO CMD, WHAT IS
REALLY CRITICAL IS THE
INSTRUMENTALITY OF
COMMUNICATION. THE KEY THING FOR
PEOPLE WHO WORK IN THEIR HEADS,
IS TO GET OUT. FOR PEOPLE WHO
HAVE A MOTORIC DISABILITY THE
RAMP ON THE SIDE WALK ALLOWS
THEM TO REINTEGRATE TO SOCIETY,
FOR THESE PEOPLE IT IS THE
ABILITY TO FOSTER FUNCTIONAL
COMMUNICATION. WITH THAT
RERE-ESTABLISH THE DATE,
COMMUNITY, AS I TALK ABOUT THE
DISABILITY PARADIGM RIGHTS THAT
I DRAW UPON IS INTEGRATE PEOPLE
FULLY INTO SOCIETY AND RETURN
THEM TO THEIR FAMILIES AN HOMES
AND THEIR COMMUNITIES AND
LANGUAGE IS CENTRAL TO THAT. SO
RESTORING FUNCTIONAL
COMMUNICATION IS VERY IMPORTANT.
HERE WE HAVE TWO OF THE MAJOR
MODES BY WHICH THIS IS HAPPENED.
THIS IS THE FOLLOW UP OF THE
ADRIENNE NOL ARKS MARKSORN
PAPER, SECOND SENIOR AUTHOR,
THIS MONTY PAPER THEY TOGGLED
IMAGINE PLAYING TENNIS AND
SPATIAL NAVIGATION,
INTERESTINGLY IN THIS STUDY 30
OF THE 31 PATIENTS WHO WERE
THOUGHT TO BE VEGETATIVE WERE
IDENTIFIED BY THE COMA RECOVERY
SCALE AND ONLY 1 WAS IDENTIFIED
THTHIS WAY. SO THE TEST
CHARACTERISTICS OF THE FIELD
PEOPLE WHO COULD DO COMA
RECOVERY SCALE STUFF CAN'T DO
THIS ON THE IMAGE SO IT IS NOT
READY FOR PRIME TIME, IT IS
STILL EARLY. THE OTHER WAY OF
RE-ESTABLISHING COMMUNICATIONS
IS A STUDY WE DID ALLUDED TO
YESTERDAY BY DR. SOLOMON BUT WE
PUBLISHED THERE IN NATURE IN
2007 WHERE WE STIMULATED THE
INTRALAMINAR NUCLEUS OF THE
THALAMUS, IT WAS A PATIENT WHO
HAD BEEN BRUTALLY INJURED AND AD
HAD INITIAL GLASGOW COMA SCALE
OF 3 WHICH IS LOW AS IT CAN GO
WITHOUT SOMEONE DYING, UP TO LOW
LEVEL NCS AND HAD BEEN AT A
STABLE BASELINE FOR FOUR YEARS.
WITH THE THALAMIC STIMULATION
FOR THE REASONS WE HEARD THIS
MORNING, NICO SHIV WAS THE FIRST
AUTHOR ON THIS, WE WERE ABLE TO
BRING HIM BACK TO SOME DEGREE OF
RECOVERY SO WE DID A SIX MONTH
DOUBLE BLIND CROSS OVER STUDY
BILATERAL THALAMIC STIMULATION,
THOSE TRACKS LOOKED ABSOLUTELY
GRAND AND LARGE BUT IT JUST
SCATTER AROUND IN A MAGNETIC
FILAMENT AND IT JUST AN OLD CAT
SCAN, WE DIDN'T HAVE FMRI AT
THAT TIME, YOU CAN USE FMRI NOW
BUT COULDN'T THEN BECAUSE IT
WOULD BURN THE BRAIN BUT THE
PATIENT GOT THALAMIC DBS
BILATERALLY AND WITH THAT
IMPROVED COGNITIVE BEHAVIORS,
LIMB CONTROL AND ORAL FEEDING.
HE WAS ABLE TO SAY -- BEFORE
THIS HE WOULD ONLY HAVE
INTERMITTENT ABILITY TO MOVE HIS
EYES, THAT IS THE EXTENT OF HIS
INTERACTION WITH THE WORLD. WITH
DBS HE WAS ABLE TO SAY SIX OR
SEVEN WORD SENTENCE, TELL HIS
MOTHER HE LOVED HER, THE FIRST
16 WORDS OF PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE
AND GO TO OLD NAVY AND CHOOSED
CLOTHING HE LIKED. HE IMPROVED
LIMB CONTROL AND FIRST TIME IN
SIX YEARS HE WAS ABLE TO EAT BY
MOUTH AND NOT BY -- AND MAINTAIN
HIS SECRETIONS SO THESE IMPROVED
CORRELATIONS SIMULATION --
IMPROVEMENTS CORRELATED WITH
STIMULATION AND THERE WAS SOME
CROSS OVER EFFECT BUT THE --
THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOME
INDUCTIONS OF PLASTICITY, BUT
THIS WAS THE FIRST EVIDENCE DBS
CAN RESTORE LATE RECOVERY FROM
SEVERE TBI. AND I DESCRIBE THIS
AS AGENCY (INAUDIBLE) ELECTRICAL
CURRENT GIVING HIM BACK SOME
DEGREE OF AGENCY. WE THOUGHT WE
HAD DONE A GOOD THING AND WERE
HAPPY AND GRANT, A NEUROSURGEON
IN NEW ZYLAND WRITES THIS PAPER
-- SEE LAND WRITES THIS PAPER
BRUTALLY CRITICIZING WHAT WE DID
CALLED THE MINUTENALLY CONSCIOUS
STATE DEEP BRAIN STIMULATION,
WHAT IS WORSE IN FUTILITY AND HE
USES THIS PHRASE THERE IS THE
RISK OF UNBARABLE BADNESS THAT
WE HAD DONE THIS HORRIBLE THING.
LATE HE E REVIEWED MY BOOK BUT
THINGS TURNED AROUND BY THEN. SO
THIS WAS GREAT PEERSON WE HAVE
RIGHT TO USE HIS NAME AND IRB
AND HIPAA BEHAVIORS AND THAT IS
ALL FROM HIS MOTHER H SO GREG IS
CRYING ONE DAY, I SAID MAYBE
GRANT WAS RIGHT, MAYBE WE
CREATED THIS SITUATION WHERE NOW
HE IS SELF-AWARE HOW DIRE HIS
SITUATION IS WHEREAS BEFORE HE
WAS JUST OBLIVIOUS TO IT. SHE
SAYS GREG WAS CRYING ONE DAY, I
WAS VISITING HIM AND HE SAID I'M
CRYING FOR COREY. I HAD
INTERVIEWED FOR HOURS AND HOURS,
I SAID WHO IS COREY, SHE SAID
THAT IS HIS BROTHER WHO DOES NOT
COME THE SEE HIM THAT IS IN
DENIAL AND EVEN I STARTED
CRYING. I SAID HERE HE IS, HE IS
AWARE AND KNOWS WHAT IS GOING
ONON. SO T IT IS NOT
SELF-REFLECTIVE AND
SELF-GRIEVING HIS SITUATION, HE
IS UPSET HIS BROTHER IS NOT
THERE. SO THIS LEADS TO THE
STATEMENT WHICH IS THE MANTRA OF
THE DISABILITY RIGHTS COMMUNITY,
NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT US. IF
YOU GOING TO TALK ABOUT US ASK
US DON'T PUT WORDS IN YOU ARE O
MOUTH WHETHER IT IS BIAS OR
CHATGPT NOTHING ABOUT US WITHOUT
US. ANOTHER EXAMPLE IS TERRY
WALLACE, I WROTE IN THE WINTER
ISSUE OF NESM ISSUE IN
TECHNOLOGY. YOU MAY RECALL THIS
PERSON WOKE UP AFTER 19 YEARS
THOUGHT TO BE IN VEGETATIVE
STATE BUT MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS.
HAD AN OBITUARY IN THE NEW YORK
TIMES, AND THIS IS A PAPER THAT
WAS PUBLISHED IN JCI IN 2005
THAT SHOWED EXONAL SPROUTING AND
PRUNING IN HIS BRAIN WHICH
PROBABLY WAS THE SUBSTRATE FOR
HIS RECOVERY. SO REALLY FAMOUS
GUY, MOST WON'T GET A PICTURE IN
NEW YORK TIMES WHEN WE HAVE OUR
OBITUARY, FAMILY HAS TO PAY FOR
IT -- THAT IS A JOKE. BUT THIS
WAS A BIG DEAL. AND YET HE DIED
VERY TYPICAL DEATH. AND PEOPLE
PUT WORDS IN HIS MOUT MOUTH. HIS
SISTER I HAVE PERMISSION TO TELL
THE STORY ABOUT, TAMMY BAYS THEY
GOT A CALL FROM THE -- WE GOT A
CALL, NICO AND I GOT A CALL
BECAUSE SHE WAS OLE WE HAD
STUDIED HIM AND WE HAD BEEN IN
TOUCH, SO DOCTOR SAYS TO TERRY,
WHO IS ON VENTILATOR, DO YOU
WANT TO BE WITH YOUR MOTHER? HER
MOTHER DIED A FEW YEARS AGO, HE
WAS CLOSE AND TERRY SAID YES.
TERRY HAS PROBLEMS WITH
TEMPERRALTY. HE DOESN'T KNOW IF
IT IS 1984 WHEN HE GOT INJURED,
WHEN HE WOKE UP AND HE WAS
WATCHING THE PRESIDENT ONE DAY
ON TV. AND IT WAS GEORGE BUSH OR
SOMETHING. HE SAID WHAT HAPPENED
TO RONALD REAGAN, HE WAS LIKE
RIP VAN WINKLE. THE POINT IS THE
DOCTOR INFERRED THAT HE WANTED
TO DIE. THAT HE WANTED HIS
VENTILATOR REMOVED BECAUSE HE
WANTED TO BE WITH HIS MOTHER.
ANOTHER EXAMPLE PUTTING WORDS IN
HIS MOUTH. SO IT IS THE
INTERSECTIONALITY OF ASSISTIVE
TECHNOLOGY THE BIASES TOWARDS
PEOPLE WITH DISABILITY THE RIGHT
TO DIE LINEAGE AND THE LIKE AND
THAT GETS THE IMPORTANCE OF
DISABILITY RIGHTS. I ARGUED IN
THE TIMES AND ELSEWHERE THAT
BRAIN INJURY AND THE CIVIL RIGHT
WE DON'T THINK ABOUT. WE NEED TO
THINK ABOUT UNIDENTIFIED
MISIDENTIFIED MISCONSTRUED
CONSCIOUSNESS IS TO VIOLATE IS
CIVIL RIGHTS OF THESE PEOPLE.
AND IT VIOLATES THE ADA MANDATE,
AND THE UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF
PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES THAT
CALLS FOR MAXIMAL SOCIETAL
INTEGRATION WHICH TIES TO
LANGUAGE AND EVERYTHING SO UP AT
YALE WE HAD BEEN WRITING WITH
MORE REVIEW ARTICLES AN
DISORDERS OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
WE CAN SKIP ALL THIS BECAUSE THE
KEY POINT HERE IS THAT WE ARE
MOVING FROM A RIGHTS FRAMEWORK
TO A CAPABILITIES FRAMEWO FRAME.
MARK NUSSBALM HAVE SAID BECAUSE
TECHNOLOGY IS A CAPABILITY THAT
ENABLES PEOPLE TO COMMUNICATE,
TO BE IN THE WORLD BUT ALSO IT
HAS THE CAPABILITY OF DOING
HARM. JOHN DUEY AND I'M A
PRAGMATIST IN THE AMERICAN
TRADITION WROTE IN A REALLY
INTERESTING SA COMMON SENSE
SCIENTIFIC IRQUERY INVENTIONS OF
NEW AGENCIES AN INSTRUMENTS,
THINK OF DBS NEUROIMAGING AND
ALL THINGS WE TALK ABOUT TODAY
CREATE NEW ENDS. CREATE NEW
CONSEQUENCES, WHICH STIR MEN AND
WOMEN TO FORM NEW PURPOSES SO I
ARGUE THAT THESE FOLKS ARE
DEPENDENT UPON TECHNOLOGY.
TECHNOLOGY REVEAL COVERT
CONSCIOUSNESS. BEFORE WE HAD WE
DIDN'T KNOW THIS PROBLEM
EXISTED. THEIR VOICE DEPENDS ON
NEUROIMAGING, DBS AND YES EVEN
AI. BUT AI CAN AID OR DISTORT
THEIR VOICE, INTEGRATE THEM OR
MARGINALIZE THEM, AUGMENT
DISCRIMINATION OR FACILITATE
COMMUNICATION AND BUILD
COMMUNITY, IT IS OUR CHOICE. SO
THAT IS IT. THANK YOU VERY
MUCH. I NEVER TALK THAT FAST.
>> COULD YOU JUST HOE FOR LIKE
ME WHO DON'T KNOW, EXPLAIN HOW
THIS ABILITY TO GET YES, NO
ANSWERS FROM THESE PATIENTS, HOW
THEY PROGRESSED OVER THE LAST
YEARS? IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE
REGULAR COMMUNICATION WITH
PEOPLE LIKE THIS OR SPOTTY, ONE
DAY THERE ONE DAY --
>> THEIR ABILITY TO COMMUNIQUE
RELATES TO THEIR OWN INTERNAL
DYNAMICS BECAUSE REVEL OF
AROUSAL WILL DETERMINE HOW WELL
THEY DO. TO CATCH THEM NOT LOW
POINT THEIR JET LAG BUT BETTER
POINT MORE AROUSED. THE OTHER
THING THAT IS THE TEST
CHARACTERISTICS ARE -- TO ANSWER
THE EARLIER QUESTION JOHN ASKED,
THE PRIOR SESSION, THAT IS THE
PROBLEM BECAUSE A POSITIVE TEST
IS JUST POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE
TEST COULD BE A FLAW IN I DON'T
WANT TO ANSWER ITS OR THE
TECHNOLOGY WAS WRONG. WE CAN
LABEL PEOPLE PERMANENTLY
UNCONSCIOUS OR VEGETATIVE
BECAUSE THEY DON'T RESPOND TO A
TEST. PEOPLE LIKE JOE AND OTHERS
ARE TRYING TO CORRELATES THE
BEHAVIORAL TEST TO THIS AND WE
DON'T HAVE GOOD TEST
CHARACTERISTICS AS YES, SIR.
THERE ARE SOME FUNDAMENTAL
PROBLEMS, THERE IS ALSO AN
INTEROPERABILITY PROBLEM BECAUSE
DIFFERENT CENTERS USE DIFFERENT
PARADIGMS AND SO TO PULL DATA IS
COMPLICATED. WE HAVE AN EFFORT
THROUGH THE MCDONALD FOUNDATION
DOING THIS, IT HAS BEEN
COMPLICATED BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO
STRIP DOWN THE DATA SET TO HAVE
COMMENCEERABILITY. SO STILL AN
EVOLVING PROBLEM.
>> THANKS VERY MUCH. YOU FOCUS
ON USE OF AI ASSISTANCE AND
REHABILITATION, ALSO INTERESTED
IN THE ROLE AI PLAYS IN THESE
DIAGNOSTIC PROCEDURES IN THE
(INAUDIBLE) STUDY FOR EXAMPLE
WHERE WE HAVE THE MASSIVEEEG
DATA AND -- MASSIVE EEG DATA AND
ONE OF THE (INAUDIBLE) IS TRYING
TO INTERPRET IT. DO YOU SEE THAT
SUBSTANTIALLY LESS PROBLEMATIC
USE OF AI OR DO YOU FEAR SOME OF
THOSE BIASES YOU ARE TALKING
ABOUT --
>> I THINK THE RISK OF BIAS IN
MACHINE LEARNING LOOKING AT AN
OBJECTIVE DATA SET IS MUCH, MUCH
LESS. I THINK THAT WILL BE
USEFUL, THE FEW MOMENTS BEFORE I
CAME UP I GOT A LITTLE
NOTIFICATION FROM DOXIMITY FOR
USING AI IN THE ICU FOR BRAIN
INJURY SO I THINK IT WILL BE
THERE BUT THE NEUTRAL DOMAINS
AND VALUE LADEN DOMAINS WHERE
RISK OF BIAS CAN CREEP IN.
>> THAW.
>> OUR LAST SPEAKER FOR THIS
SESSION IS DR. ERIC OERMANN,
ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF
NEUROSURGERY, NEUROLOGY AND DATA
SCIENCE AT NYU, STUDIED
MATHEMATICS AT GEORGETOWN AND
PHILOSOPHY WITH THE PRESIDENT
COUNCIL ON BIOETHICS AND
ABANDONED GRADUATE STUDIES IN
GROUP THEORY TO PURSUE
NEUROSURGERY. HE COMPLETE AD
POST-DOCTORAL SCIENCES AND
SERVED AS VISOR AT GOOGLE X ON
PROJECT AMBER. HIS TALK IS
BUILDING BLOCKS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS.
>>
>> FIRST THANKS FOR HAVING ME
HERE FOR ORGANIZING THIS. I
LEARNED SO MUCH LISTENING TO
THESE TALKS. I THINK THERE IS A
COMPUTER SCIENTIST COMING TO THE
CONSCIOUSNESS, IT IS VERY EYE
OPENING. HOPEFULLY INTERESTING
PERSPECTIVE COMING FROM THE
NEUROSURGEONS WORK WITH A LOT OF
PATIENTS WITH DISORDERS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS BUT PARTICULARLY
AS COMPUTER SCIENTIST, I
DEFINITELY COULD SPEND THE
ENTIRE AFTERNOON TALKING AI AND
I THINK WE HEARD IT POP UP IN
MANY MANY TALKS, PROFESSOR FINS
TALKING ABOUT ASSISTIVE DEVICE.
CERTAINLY THERE IS A ROLE FOR AI
INTERPRETIVE ROLE HELPING
INTERPRET NEUROIMAGING AND EEG
DATA AND ALSO EVEN THE ROLE FOR
AI IN TERMS OF THE VERY
INFRASTRUCTURE OF HOW WE DO
RESEARCH, VECTOR DATABASES,
BEING ABLE TO USE AI TO SHARE
DATA AND COLLABORATE BETTER. BUT
CERTAINLY FROM MY TALK I WANT TO
NARROW DOWN ON THE ACTUAL STUDY
OF CONSCIOUSNESS WITHIN AI. THAT
QUESTION OF CONSCIOUS MACHINES.
I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE RELEVANT
TO THE NATURE OF THIS
CONFERENCE, DISCLOSE INSURES,
THEY ARE NOT RELEVANT. THIS IS
MY BACKGROUND. THE STUDY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS COMPUTER SCIENCE
IS AT ORIGINS OF COMPUTER
SCIENCE. REALLY ON THE DAWN OF
MODERN COMPUTER SCIENCE, TURNING
ADAM LOVE LACE ARGUED
CONSCIOUSNESS AND MACHINES. WITH
AL ALSO SAYING SHE FELT MACHINES
TO BE CONSCIOUS OUR WOULD HAVE
TO CREATE SPONTANEOUS TO.
COUP FOR WORK AND PUSHING BACK
AGAINST THIS NOTION. AND
SUGGESTING HE AGREED WITH ATA
THAT PERHAPS THE MACHINE THEY
WERE TALK ABOUT THE TURN OF THE
CURRENTLY WERE NOT CAPABLE OF
THIS BUT THAT COB SERVING THAT
COG ANY ACTIVE CAPABILITY OF
BIOLOGICAL ORGANISMS ARE
CONSTRAINED BY BIOLOGICAL
SUBSTRATE IN THIS CASE MACHINES
AND SOME DAY IN HIS ESTIMATION
CAPABILITIES WOULD INCREASE AND
EXPAND THERE BY EXPANDING WHAT
THEY WERE CAPABLE OF AND BECOME
INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM
BIOLOGICAL ORGANISMS IN SENSE OF
COGNITIVE CAPABILITY WHICH THIS
NOTION GIVING RISE TO FAMOUS
TURNING TEST. BUT ALSO THIS
NOTION THAT THE CAPABILITIES OF
MACHINES ARE HIGHLY DETERMINED
BY THEIR UNDERLYING SUBSTRATE
COMPUTATIONAL HARDWARE, AND THAT
PERHAPS AS WE EXPAND THEM FROM A
PHYSICAL PERSPECTIVE IN TERMS OF
HARDWARE, WE MIGHT EVENTUALLY
SEE MORE INTELLIGENT CONSCIOUS
MACHINES AND CERTAINLY WE HAVE
BEEN DOING THIS IN THE FIELD OF
AI. THE FIGURE ON THE LEFT -- ON
THE LEFT HERE SHOWS THE GENERAL
SIZE OF AI MODELS, RANGING FROM
1950s TO NOW. WE SEE ALMOST
EXPONENTIAL INCREASE HOW LARGE
THESE ARE GETTING. SO I KNOW ONE
OF THE EARLIER TALKS, SOMEONE
MENTIONED I THINK ORDER OF 3
TRILLION SYNAPSES AND THAT IS
NOT INCONCEIVABLE CONCERNING HOW
RAPIDLY WE SCALE THEM UP, WE
HAVE 3 TRILLION PARAMETER
MODELS. TRULY GETTING BIGGER
AND AS THEY GET BIGGER PERHAPS
IN LINE WITH TURNING'S
PREDICTION AXI MODELS ARE
INCREASINGLY COMPETENT AT THE
VARIOUS BENCHMARKS WITH COMPUTER
SCIENCE, BETTER ABLE TO
UNDERSTAND HANDWRITING SPEECH,
HUMAN LANGUAGE,, AND PERHAPS
THIS IS ONE OF THE BIG
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN COMPUTER
SCIENCE AND THINGS JONATHAN
TALKED IN HIS TALK FOCUSED ON
THE CONCRETE BENCHMARKS AND
MAYBE A LITTLE TOO MUCH SO AND
LESS ON KIND OF MORE
NATURALISTIC EXPLORATION OF THEM
HOPEFULLY MY TALK WILL GIVE A
FLAIR WHAT THIS COULD LOOK LIKE
I DON'T NEED TO BELABOR THE
OTHER SPEAKERS TALKED ABOUT IT,
AN APPROPRIATE TIME TO TALK
ABOUT MACHINE CONSCIOUSNESS.
THERE IS GOOGLE ENGINEER WHOFELD
LAMBDA GOOGLE LARGE LANGUAGE
MODEL ASCENSION MOST AGREE
THAT'S PROBABLY NOT THE CASE,
LANGUAGE MODEL ARE NOT EVEN
AGENTS THEY JUST HAVE A
PROBABILITY DISTRIBUTION OF
WORDS.
BUT CERTAINLY QUESTIONS OF AI
CONSCIOUSNESS SENTIENCE, AI
RIGHTS AN LAWS WILL BECOME
INCREASINGLY RELEVENCE BUT ARE
NOW. SIMILAR QUESTION OF LAWS.
IN THE CASE OF COPYRIGHT LAW, WE
HAVE SEVERAL TWO LARGE ACTIVE
LAW SUITS CURRENTLY LITIGATED
OVER THE RIGHTS OF AI AUTHORS
AND WHAT THE THE RAMIFICATIONS
FOR COPYRIGHT. SO THESE ARE
FUTURE CONCERNS, VERY REAL AN
RELEVANT NOW FROM A LEGAL SENSE.
MY TAKE ON LISTENING TO A LOT OF
THIS DISCUSSION OF THE STUDY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, ESPECIALLY
NEUROSCIENCE IS THIS IS HARD. I
PROBABLY UNDERSTAND A THIRD OF
THE EARLIER TALKS, THE PAST TWO
DAYS IF HONEST WITH MYSELF, AS
COMPUTER SCIENTIST. WE HAVE BEEN
STUDYING CONSCIOUSNESS FOR A
LONG TIME AS SPECIES, SINCE
DISCOVERY OF WRITING IN A SENSE.
ARISTOTLE WRITES ABOUT IT. I
THINK ONE THING WE CAN'T AGREE
ON WHETHER WE CAN WRITE
CONSCIOUSNESS, THIS NATURE OF
INEVITABLE QUALITY. ONE OF MY
THOUGHTS ON ONE WAY AI
SPECIFICALLY CAN HELP
INVESTIGATE CONSCIOUSNESS IS
NOTION OF REGENERATIVE RESEARCH
PARADIGMS, A MEANS OF EASING
INTO THAT ANALOGY, I THOUGHT WE
START WITH SOMETHING REALLY
SIMPLE LIKE BAKING CAKES. SO ON
THE TOP OF THE CAKES, ONE OF MY
HOBBIES IS BAKING IN ADDITION TO
COMPUTER SCIENCE AND
NEUROSURGERY, WHEN YOU ARE
INTERESTED IN BAKING ONE THING
IS YOU WANTS TO BAKE
SPECIFICCATION, YOU SAY HEY,
WHAT GOES INTO THIS CAKE WE
FOUND AT SUCH AND SUCH BAKERY
WHICH IS EASY TO DO IN NEW YORK.
LUCKY TO PRACTICE. IT TURNS OUT
THAT IT IS KIND OF HARD TO
DECONSTRUCTCATION. THE REASON
BAKING A CAKE IS IRREVERSIBLE
THERM MOW DYNAMIC PROCESS. I'M
AWARE OF WHAT MAKES
THERMODYNAMICS IRREVERSIBLE I
WON'T GET INTO BUT IT IS A
UNIQUE PROCESS IN CHANGING
ENTROPY AS YOU MIX THE
INGREDIENTS TOGETHER AND APPLY
HEAT. SO WHILE YOU CAN
DECONSTRUCTCATION THERE ARE
COMPANIESNA GET YOU AN MRI ON
YOUR CAKE, A MASS SPEC LIQUID
CHROMATOGRAPHY, IT DOESN'T TELL
YOU WHAT GOES INTOCATION.
DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT
GOES INTO THE CASE. THE WAY YOU
REVERSE ENGINEER OR FIGURE OUT
WHAT MAKESCATION IS YOU BAKE
CAKES. THIS IS THE GEORGETOWN
CUP CAKE, HIGHLY RECOMMENDED
WHILE IN TOWN. FIGURE OUT WHAT
IS IN THE CASE WE BAKE THEM. THE
ESSENTIAL INGREDIENTS FOR THIS
EXERCISE ARE SIMILARITY MEASURE
KNOWING THAT WE HAVE CONSTRUCTED
THE CAKE THAT WE ARE LOOKING
FOR. AS WELL AS BASIC SEARCH,
FUNDAMENTALLY A SEARCH PROBLEM,
WE ARE LOOKING FOR SOMETHING IN
SPACE OF INGREDIENTS. NOW
EVERYONE CAN UNDERSTAND ANALOGY
OF THEM STARTING TO DRAW THAT
THIS GENERATIVE APPROACH TO
RESEARCH. STUDYING THE FORWARD
PROCESS IN TERMS OF SEARCH
PROBLEM, POTENTIAL WAY TO GO
ABOUT STUDYING CONSCIOUSNESS.
ORDER ADDITIONAL SLIDES I HAVE
IN MY LATEST VERSION I HAVE
PHILOSOPHY UP HERE AND ETHICS
WHICH I DO THINK GUIDE THE AI
RESEARCH AND NEUROSCIENCE BUT IN
MY MIND AR RESEARCH OFFERS A
UNIQUE ABILITY TO STUDY THIS
FORWARD PROCESS OF TRYING TO
BUILD INTELLIGENCE AND
CONSCIOUSNESS INTO MACHINES,
WHERE IT IS A FULLY UNDERSTOOD
PROCESS FROM SOUP TO NUTS.
NEUROSCIENCE IN PARTICULAR AS
WELL AS PHILOSOPHY CAN CONSTRAIN
OR DEFINE THAT SEARCH BASE. SO
FOR THE REST OF MY TALK, I AM
GOING TO FOCUS ON WHERE I SEE
THOSE EFFORTS CURRENTLY BEING
WITHIN THE SPACE OF AI.
CERTAINLY THE MAYBE MOST
CRITICAL OR ESSENTIAL PART IS
THIS AREA REINFORCEMENT LEARNING
SO REINFORCEMENT IS A SUB FIELD
OF AI AND RICHARD SAID IN ONE OF
THE MAJOR SCIENTISTS AND
DESCRIBES THE SCIENCE OF THE
MIND, THE MATHEMATICS OF
INTELLIGENCE AND SELF AND THE
REASON IT IS INTERESTING, IN THE
CONTEXT OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND AI
IS REINFORCEABLE LEARNING IS
VERY DIFFERENT FROM LADIES AND
GENTLEMEN MODELS OR
CONVOLUTIONAL NETWORKS OR OTHER
MODELS ESPECIALLY IN
NEUROSCIENCE BUT SEEKS TO MODEL
AGENTS WITHIN ENVIRONMENTS THAT
TAKE ACTION TO MAXIMIZE REWARDS
THIS IS INTERESTING SO THINK
ABOUT THAT IS WHAT A LOT OF US
HAVE BEEN TALKING THE PAST
COUPLE OF DAYS, ARTHROPODS OR
DROSOPHILA OR UNITS, ALL IN A
SENSE AGENTS, RESISTENING SOME
ENVIRONMENT, GREATER NATUR NATU.
SEEKING BASIC REWARDS. THIS
MAKES A IDEAL TEST BED FOR
CONSENTS OF CONSCIOUSNESS SINCE
WE HAVE ARTIFICIAL AGENTS. SO
THE ME CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH IN
AI AI IS NATURAL INTERSECTION OF
NEUROSCIENCE AND RESEARCH WHERE
WE SEE CONCEPTS AND
COMPUTATIONAL NEUROSCIENCE
BENEFITING FROM STUDYING, SPARSE
CONNECTIVITY, CONVOLUTIONS LIKE
I MENTIONED, SPIKING ACTIVITY.
SO THE CONSCIOUSNESS IS PERHAPS
INTERESTING FUTURE TO DRIVE AI
RESEARCH. THIS IS A NEW SLIDE
BUT I WAS INSPIRED BY LISTENING
TO THE INITIAL TALK ON IT AND
GLOBAL NEURAL WORKS THISRY, TO
ME AS AI SCIENTIST I HEAR THIS,
THIS IS SHARED BY (INAUDIBLE)
THAT GLOBAL THEORY IS THE
PERCEIVE ACROSS ATTENTION
MECHANISM SO THE WAY THE PRO SEE
DIVESTITURE WORKS IS WE HAVE
MULTIPLE INPUTS AND IT CAN BE
SOUNDS FROM THE ENVIRONMENT, IT
CAN BE VISUAL IMAGES, YOU CAN BE
TEAKSED, ALL THESE GET
(INAUDIBLE) BY SOME OTHER FIXED
FUNCTION SO TURN INTO BITE SIZE
DISCREET AMOUNTS SUCH AS ACTION
POTENTIAL IF YOU WANT TO THINK
ABOUT IT IN A NEUROSCIENTIFIC
TERM BUT DISCRETE INPUTS GET
MULTIPLIED BY THE LIVED MATRIX.
A LOWER DIMENSIONALITY THAN
THOSE INPUTS SO CAPTURE THE
INFORMATION FROM ALL THE INPUTS
IN THE SINGLE UNITARY LADEN
ARRAY. THEN WE START APPLYING
THE SELF-ATTENTION PROCESS.
WHICH IS THE FUNDAMENTAL
MECHANISM BEHIND THE LANGUAGE
MODELS. WHICH LETS US LEARN
COMPLEX SET OF RELATIONSHIPS
BETWEEN THOSE ENCODED FEATURES.
WE HAVE DONE THIS A FEW TIMES WE
CAN DEVELOP SOME OUTPUT AND
SIMPLY BE LINEAR READ OUT TO
SOME ACTION, WE CAN RECONSTRUCT
THE INPUTS OR PREDICT FUTURE
STATE. BUT THE COOL THING ABOUT
THINKING PER RECEIVER IS GLOBAL
NEUROWORKS SPACE IS SUDDENLY
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PERHAPS
UNLIKE THALAMUS I CAN PICK THIS
APART. LOOK ON THE INSIDE TO SEE
WHAT IT IS GO DOING AND ENGINEER
INTO AGENTS. IF YOU HAVE PER
RECEIVER TEXT AND TRY TO TELL US
ABOUT WHETHER THE TEXT IS KIND
OF A POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE
VALENCE IT SHOW IT IS WORDS IT
FOCUSES ON. OR CONVERSELY TRYING
TO CLASSIFY ANIMALS WE CAN SEE
FOCUSING ON THE DOG. MORE
INTERESTINGLY YOU CAN LOOK INTO
THAT GLOBAL NEURAL WORK SPACE OF
PER RECEIVER AND SEE THE
ACTIVATION PATTERNS RESEMBLE
THAT OF CONVOLUTION. SEEMS TO
HAVE LEARNED MECHANISM LIKE
CONVOLUTIONAL NETWORK
GENERALIZED GLOBAL NEURAL WORK
SPACE. MOST EXCITINGLY
ULTIMATELY USE THESE MODELS TO
LOOK AT BEHAVIOR AND
ENVIRONMENT. THE PER RECEIVER IS
TESTED IN ENVIRONMENT IF YOU SAW
THE NEWS BASIC PER RECEIVER
ARCHITECTURE OR NEUROWORK SPACE
IS BEHIND DEEP MINDS SUCCESSFUL
ATTEMPT BEATING HUMAN MASTERS AT
THE VIDEO GAME STAR CRAFT. THE
INTERESTING THINK IS WE CAN'T
STUDY INNER WORKINGS OF THE
HUMAN PLAYERS PLAYING STAR CRAFT
WE CAN SEE HOW THAT GLOBAL
NEURAL WORK SPACE WITHIN THE PER
RECEIVER IS PROCESSING THE
ENVIRONMENT TO OBTAIN WORLD
CLASS RESULTS WITHIN THIS VERY
LIMITED BUT ALSO VERY RICH GAME
PLAY ENVIRONMENT. ANOTHER
INTERESTINTEREST INTERSECTION BI
AND CONSCIOUSNESS IS THIS PAST
WOKE AT ASSC IS THIS NOTION OF
NEVADA TAIBILITY. COMPUTER
SCIENTIST WHERE WE HAVE TO BE
ABLE TO WRITE EVERYTHING DOWN IN
CODE, THIS NOTION OF NEVADA
TAIBILITY OF THE --
INEVITABILITY, THE RECENT
PROJECT OUT OF (INAUDIBLE)
GROUP, DOES AN INTERESTING TAKE
ON THE INEVITABILITY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS STARTING WITH
BASIC CONCEPT AND COMPUTATIONAL
NEUROSCIENCE THAT BRAIN CALL
RATIONS COME OUT OF DYNAMICAL
SYSTEM BUT TAKING THE NOTION
THEN OF IF YOU HAVE A DYNAMICAL
SYSTEM AND YOU WANT TO PASS
MESSAGES BETWEEN AGENTS IN AND
OUT THOSE MESSAGES NECESSARILY
HAVE TO COME OUT OF THE FIXED
POINTSER TRACTORS AND THAT
COLLAPSE OF THE SYSTEM, SPECIFIC
ATTRACTORS INVOLVES INFORMATION
LOSS. AND THAT INFORMATION
LOSS, IS A WAY OF CAPTURING THE
NOTION INEVITABILITY OF THE
PHENOMENOLOGICAL CONSCIOUSNESS.
AS AI SCIENTIST OR COMPUTER
SCIENTIST PUTS SERIOUS
MATHEMATICAL FRAMEWORK
INFORMATION THEORY BEHIND
OTHERWISE A FAIRLY CHALLENGING
PHILOSOPHICAL CONCEPT. ONE
NOTION OF INTUITIONAL CHALLENGE
IS ALSO FACES U IN THE CASE OF
REINFORCEMENT LEARNING. THIS
ALGORITHM IS FOR THE WIN, A
TRAINING OF REINFORCEMENT
LEARNING AGENTS USING A
RECURRENTS NEURAL NETWORK
BACKBONE TO PLAY CAPTURE THE
FLAG. THEY PLAYED AGAINST
THEMSELVES MILLIONS OF TIMES IN
ORDER AT SCALE IN ORDER TO
ACHIEVE THIS BUT ALSO PLAYING IN
HUMANS. WHEN HUMANS WERE ASKED
TO DESCRIBE THE AI GAME PLAY
THEY NOTESSED EXHIBITED SEVERAL
SIMILAR BEHAVIORS AS THE HUMAN
TEAMS, IT LEARNED TO DEPEND THE
FLAG, TO CAMP IN THE OPPONENT
BASE SO ONCE THE FLAG WAS
CAPTURED IT COULD WAIT THERE TO
RESPOND AND GRAB IT AGAIN AND
WORK AS A TEAM TO FOLLOW
TEAMMATES AROUND, THE DESCRIBED
BASED ON INTERACTIONS WITH TEAM
MATES. THEY COORDINATE THE
STRATEGIES. THE INTERESTING
THING IS THAT WE KNOW FROM THE
ENGINEERING IS THE AI MODELS HAD
NO MEANS OF COMMUNICATING. SO
DISPLAY THE SOPHISTICATED TEEN
BEHAVIORS YOU PARTICIPANTS
DESCRIBE SOME KIND OF TEAM WORK
EMERGE FROM SELF-INTERESTED
GOALS OF TRYING TO MAXIMIZE
REWARDED INDIVIDUAL AGENTS. SO I
THINK DEEPLY MISLEADING. IT
SEEMS LIKES IN THE TEAM WORK
MORE AKIN TO SCHOOLING A FISH.
SIMILARLY ON THE SEPARATE
EXPERIMENT WITH SIMILAR NETWORK
HAVING THESE LITTLE BLUE GUYS
THEY END UP TRYING TO HIDE FROM
THE RED ONES AND THEY END UP
LEARNING TO WORK TOGETHER TO
BUILD PORTS TO HIGH. VERY
SEEMINGLY PURPOSEFUL BEHAVIOR
VERY COORDINATED BEHAVIOR BUT
EMERGING SPONTANEOUSLY FROM EACH
AGENTS MAXIMIZE THE OWN
INDIVIDUAL REWARDS WITHOUT
EXPLICIT MEANS OF COLLABORATION
ON THE TOP OF THE LANGUAGE MODEL
I THINK AS AN AI SCIENTIST AND
INTERESTED IN IN CONSCIOUSNESS
IN AI ONE INTERESTING THING IS
USING LANGUAGE MODEL AS MEANS OF
INTERACTING HAVING AI INTERACT
WITH EACH OTHER AS WELL AS WITH
THE GREATER WORLD. SISERO
PUBLISH AD FEW WEEKS AGO IN
SCIENCE BY FACEBOOK. AS TRAIN
DIP PLEA MACY FOR ANYONE
FAMILIAR, DIPLOMACY HAS
RELATIVELY CONTROL EUROPEAN
COUNTRIES AND HAVE ROUGHLY
SIMILAR FORCES AND YOU WIN BY
CONVINCING FOLKS TO AL PLY WITH
YOU AND BETRAY YOUR ALLIES. SO
YOU NEED TO ENGAGE IN THE SEAT
WHICH AI TURNED OUTS VERY GOOD
AT. T WITH MOST HUMANS UNAWARE
THEY WERE PLAYING AGAINST
MACHINES. SO THE LANGUAGE
MODELS, TO VISUALIZE OR
EXPERIENCE THESE VERY
SOPHISTICATED BEHAVIORS BUT ALSO
A MEANS OF DIRECTLY INTERACTING
WITH AI MODELS, IN A VERY
(INAUDIBLE) NATURAL LANGUAGE
THESE MODELS ONES THAT WE CAN
PICK APART INCITE ABLATE
COMPONENTS AND SEE WHAT EACH
INDIVIDUAL CASE DOES TO THE
MODEL. I WANT TO MENTION
RECURRENTS STATES BASED MODELS.
THIS IS THE NOTION OF TAKING THE
ENTIRE INPUT SPACE STATE OF THE
ENVIRONMENT ENCODING TO CURRENTS
NETWORK. TRIES TO PREDICT FUTURE
WORLD STATES. EXCITING THING
ABOUT THIS IN A SENSE ENABLES
ARCI MODELS TO ENNABLE TIME
TRAVEL, MAYBE -- AI MODELS TO
ENABLE TIME TRAVEL. THE TOP IS
TRUE TRAJECTORY, WHAT HAPPENED,
HERE ARE INPUTS, MIDDLE, SECOND
IS MODEL, YOU CAN SEE THAT THE
MODELS INTERNAL PROJECTION OF
WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN,
CLOSELY TRACKS WHO WAS GOING TO
END UP HAPPENING IN THE REAL
WORLD. THE PROJECTION OF WHAT HE
THINKS IT IS HAPPEN IT IS AI
DECIDES WHAT TO DO. PROCESS WE
TYPICALLY ASCRIBE TO VERY HIGH
LEVEL CONSCIOUSNESS BUT HAPPENS
NATURALLY OUT OF THIS AI
ARCHITECTURE WE CAN PICK APART.
ANOTHER INTERESTING PHENOMENON
SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THESE
RECURRENT STATE BASED MODELS IS
ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF AI
TECHNIQUES, REINFORCEMENT
LEARNING IS THERE'S SO DATA
INTENSIVE THEY TAKE THAT NOTION
OF SCALE, THAT TERRY TALKED
ABOUT AND RUN WILD IN TERMS OF
PLAYING THE GAMES WITH
EQUIVALENTS OF MILLIONS OF
YEARS. WHICH AGAIN EVOLUTION IS
MAYBE NOT THAT LONG. EXCITING
THINGS ABOUT WORLD MODELS WHEN
YOU ENDOW THIS ABILITY WITH A
REAL WORLD MODEL A PROJECT
THEMSELVES FORWARD THEY BECOME
SAMPLE EFFICIENT. THE BOTTOM APP
BOTTOM IS THE MODEL CONSIDERED
THE STATE OF THE ART AND THE TOP
IS THIS CURRENT STATES BASED
MODEL WHICH IS MUCH MORE SAMPLE
EFFICIENT CONTAINING A MAX SCORE
ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE LESS DATA.
AND REALLY QUICKLY ONE OTHER WAY
IS TEACH AI TO HAVE INTRINSIC
SENSE OF CURIOSITY, AS AN ASIDE,
AI AGENTS THAT TRIED TO USE
CURIOSITY IS SOURCE OF REWARD,
WHEN THEY SEE A TV IN VIRTUAL
ENVIRONMENT THEY STOP AND GET
STUCK ON THE TV BECAUSE IT IS
STIMULSTIMULATED WITH NEW THINGI
THINK THOUGH BECAUSE THERE IS
RECURRENTS THEME HERE FROM
TURNING TO A LOT OF THINGS I
HAVE SHOWN YOU, ALMOST ALL
THINGS RELY ON SCALE. NOT JUST
SCALE IN TERMS OF NUMBER OF
PARAMETERS OF THE AI AGENTS,
CERTAINLY ONE OF THE DRIVING
THINGS ABOUT LANGUAGE MODEL, BUT
ALSO THE SCALE OF THE
ENVIRONMENT THEY EXIST WITHIN.
THERE IS BIG LANGUAGE MODELS
THAT ARE IMPRESSIVE, EQUALLY
IMPRESSIVE ABOUT THE BIG
LANGUAGE MODELS ARE THE BIG DATA
SETS. LIKEWISE FOR THE
REINFORCEMENT LEARNING AGENTS,
THE MAJOR DRIVER LOTS OF THESE
SOPHISTICATED BEHAVIORS ISN'T
NECESSARILY THE SCALE OF THE
MODELS, MANY OF THESE CASES HAVE
BEEN RELATIVELY MODEST CERTAINLY
COMPARED TO LANGUAGE MODELS BUT
THE VAST SCALING OF ENVIRONMENT
INTO ENVIRONMENT DISPLAYING A
WIDE DEGREE OF DIVERSITY AND
POTENTIAL TASKS, IN CONCLUSION I
DO THINK THIS GENERATIVE
APPROACH TO CONSCIOUS RESEARCH
IS SOMETHING AI CAN BRING TO THE
TABLE AND GET UNIQUELY TIES INTO
PHILOSOPHICAL AND SCIENTIFIC
DOMAINS CERTAINLY THAT QUESTION
OF WHAT CONSTITUTES
CONSCIOUSNESS AND MACHINES IS
OPEN ONE AND NECESSARY ONE TO
THINK OF ENGINEERING
CONSCIOUSNESS TO AI. AND ALSO
AGAIN IDENTIFYING WHAT BASIC
SEARCH INGREDIENTS WHAT THE KEY
COMPONENTS, WHICH I THINK
CERTAINLY THE SCALE OF THE MODEL
IS ESSENTIAL, HAVING DIVERSE
VERY NATURALISTIC ENVIRONMENT IS
IMPORTANT. ALSO OF COURSE THE
SUFFICIENT COMPUTING TO WRAP ALL
THIS TOGETHER. GIVE SHOUT OUT
TO MY WONDERFUL TEAM, TO DO ALL
THIS TOGETHER AND KIND OF A
FINAL THOUGHT RICHARD FRYMAN
WHAT I CANNOT CREATE I DO NOT
UNDERSTAND. THANK YOU.
>> THANKS VERY MUCH. I THINK THE
CASE OF AI IS A REALLY GOOD ONE,
HELPING US SEE THE IMMATURITY OF
OUR THEORIES OF CONSCIOUSNESS
BECAUSE WE TRIED TO APPLY THEM
AND WE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT
THEY SAY IN SOME OF THESE CASES
SO THE GLOBAL WORK SPACE THEORY
FOR EXAMPLE, THE PROCEDURE
ARCHITECTURE IS THIS MIXTURE OF
SIMILARITIES AN DIFFERENCES,
SOME ASPECTS OF THE VERSION OF
CLEARLY NOT THERE IN SOME
ASPECTS OF IT. WE FACE THIS
QUESTION WHICH ELEMENTS OF THE
GLOBAL WET SPACE ARCHITECTURE
ACTUALLY INDISPENSABLE FOR
CONSCIOUS EXPERIENCE IN WHICH
ASPECT SUGGESTS CONTINGENT
FEATURES OF THE WAY IMPLEMENTED
IN THE HUMAN BRAIN. I DON'T KNOW
HOW TO SETTLE THAT QUESTION. ANY
THOUGHTS ON THAT AND HOW WE
MIGHT GO ABOUT SETTLING THE
ISSUE?
>> YEAH, I THIS SO ME ATTORNEYLY
-- I THINK TO ME CERTAINLY, ONE
THING I TALK ABOUT IS THE IDEA
IT DOESN'T CAPTURE THE FULL
COMPLEXITY OF THE HAYNES MODEL
GLOBAL NETWORK SPACE BUT THE
EXCITING QUESTION IS CAN WE
BUILD IN THOSE -- THE FULL
COMPLEXITY OF THE GLOBAL NEURAL
WORK SPACE THEORY AND MAYBE IN
THE RIGHT NATURALISTIC
ENVIRONMENT ASSESS WHICH OF
THESE COMPONENTS HAVE WHAT KIND
OF EFFECT GRANTED ENVIRONMENTAL
LIMITATION BUT THE ABILITY TO
INTIMATELY TEST OUR THEORIES IN
VIRTUAL ENVIRONMENT WHERE WE
CONTROL LEVERS IN THIS
CONSTRUCTIVE SENSE IS A VERY
EXCITING RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY.
>> ONE QUESTION FROM ONLINE
ATTENDANCE, IS IT TRUE WE DON'T
FULLY UNDERSTAND HOW LARGE
LANGUAGE MODELS AND GENERATIVE
AI PERFORM THEIR FUNCTIONS?
>> UNDERSTANDING IS A TRICKY
WORD. HOPEFULLY THIS WHOLE
CONFERENCE IS KEYED PEOPLE INTO
THAT. I THINK ON A VERY BASIC
LEVEL OF NO, WE UNDERSTAND
PERFECTLY HOW THEY WORK.
PROBABLY THINGS DISTRIBUTIONS
OVER THEIR INPUT TOKEN DATA SETS
AND MANIPULATE THE DISTRIBUTION
OF TOKENS OR WORDS I SHOULD SAY,
WORDS WITHIN DATA SETS,
INTIMATELY CONTROL WHAT THEY PUT
OUT AND I THINK CERTAINLY TIES
INTO FINS OBSERVATIONS THAT THE
BIAS OF AI MODELS REFLECT IT IS
BIAS OF DATA SETS AND SOME WAYS
BIAS OF US AS PEOPLE GENERATING
THE DATA SETS. ACTUALLY I THINK
WE UNDERSTAND VERY WELL THE
THEORETICAL FOUNDATION OF THEM.
WHY A SINGLE GIVEN WORD IS THE
ONE THAT COMES OUT, THAT IS HARD
TO ANSWER, HARD TO KNOW NOT
BECAUSE WE DONE KNOW HOW THEY
WORK BUT BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW
WHICH OF THOSE FORCES TRAINED
ACROSS MASSIVE SCALE WAS
RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT. IN SOME
WAYS I ALWAYS RETURN TO MY ROOTS
IN THERMO DYNAMICS AND THINKING
IN TERMS OF MICROSTATES AND
MACRO STATES IF WE UNDERSTAND
MICROSCOPIC SCALE OCCUR OVER
MASSIVE SCALES LIKELY IN
THERMODYNAMICS WE MIGHT NOT
APPRECIATE THE FULL MICROCAUSES
OF THOSE EFFECTS.
>> VERY INTERESTING TALK. THANK
YOU. SO ONE THING THAT STRUCK ME
ABOUT YOUR TALK IS THE FOCUS OF
AI RESEARCH ON PRACTICAL BENCH
MARKS AS OPPOSED TO A LOT OF
STUFF TALKED ABOUT AT THIS
MEETING. INEVITABILITY IS ONE
WAY OF TALKING BUT THE VARIOUS
CRITERIA OF CONSCIOUSNESS. FOR
EXAMPLE, IF WE LOOK AT LARGE
LANGUAGE MODELS I THINK THEY
HAVE MADE IT CLEAR THE TOURING
TEST IS USELESS. I GUESS THE
QUESTION IS, IS THERE ANY
MOVEMENT IN AI OR CAN YOU SEE A
DIRECTION IN AI -- IN AI
RESEARCH TOWARDS MORE LIKE
CONSIDERING THESE CRITERIA THAT
WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HERE IN
TERMS OF DEVELOPING AI THAT
MIGHT TELL US SOMETHING ABOUT
CONSCIOUSNESS AS OPPOSED TO WHAT
IS THE BEST BRUTE FORCE WAY TO
RECOGNIZE HANDS WRITING.
>> FEW POINTS. ONE, SORT OF
TEACHES TURN TEST, THE PROBABLY
WITH TURN TEST DEPENDS ON
EVALUATOR, I CAN TALK AND
IMMEDIATELY KNOW THAT IS AI. I
THINK A GREAT TEST IS DETECT
WHETHER IT UNDERSTANDS PALEAN
CHROMES IT DOES NOT. OR TOKEN
LEVEL. WHICH IS A HACK HOW IT IS
ENGINEER SO MYSELF AS TOURING
EXAMINER OF LARGE LANGUAGE
MODEL, FOR ME AS A LARGE
LANGUAGE MODEL SO -- DOUBLY
SUGGEST THERE IS'S CHALLENGES TO
THE TURNING TEST. I THINK PART
OF THE REASON SUCCESSIVE
BENCHMARKS IN COMPUTER SCIENCE
IS A LOT ARE ENGINEERS AND NICE
TO HAVE A QUANTITIES FAYTIVE
TARGET CONSTANTLY BUILD AGAINST
UNTIL YOU CAN HIT IT. BUT I DO
THINK MAYBE MY HOPE IS SOMETHING
THAT CAN COME OUT OF THIS
WORKSHOP, MAYBE STARTING TO
SHIFT SOME OF THE FOCUS OF HOW
WE START THINKING ABOUT AI AND
EVALUATING WITH THE TOOLS OF
COGNITIVE AND BEHAVIORAL
NEUROSCIENCE. SO I THINK THE AI
CAN POTENTIALLY OFFER
INTERESTING INSIGHTS THOUGHT OF
THAT WAY MOVING AWAY FROM OUR
DOGMATIC CHASE OF THESE
BENCHMARKS WHICH AS WE SEE
FREQUENTLY WE JUST BUILD A
BIGGER MODEL AND SUDDENLY BE THE
BENCHMARK, SOME WAYS
INTERESTING, MAYBE (INAUDIBLE)
POINT BUT NON-INTEREST DOESN'T
TELL US ANYTHING INTERESTING
ABOUT THE WORLD. ENTER SO I
THINK RIGHT NOW IT SAYS ON THE
AGENDA YOU ARE DUE FOR A COFFEE
BREAK TO ENABLE GENERAL
DISCUSSION WITH PANELISTS I
WOULD INVITE DR. OERMANN AND DR.
FINS, WE LEGAL BEGIN IF FOLKS
WOULD LIKE TO STEP OUT TO GET
COFFEE AND CALFNATE AND THEN
RETURN FOR GENERAL DISCUSSION.
PLEASE FEEL FREE. DISCLOSE
INSURE DISTEST TESTTEST TEST TET
TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST TEST
TEST TEST
>> WE HAVE TWO PANELISTS WE HAD
A COUPLE OF ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS
THAT CAME IN DURING THAT BREAK
SO WE WILL ASK THOSE FIRST. THEN
AS PEOPLE CONTINUE TO THINK
ABOUT WHAT THE SPEAKERS HAVE
TALKED ABOUT WE'LL HAVE TIME FOR
ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AS WELL.
>> I CAN GET STARTED. QUESTION
CAME IN THE LAST TALK FROM
REMOTE AUDIENCE. QUESTION IS
WHAT MAKES YOU BELIEVE AN AI
AGENT CAN ENGAGE IN MENTAL TIME
TRAVEL? CAN YOU SAY A LITTLE BIT
MORE HOW THAT WORKS? IF I CAN
EDITORIALIZE AND ADD A LITTLE --
ANOTHER SIMILAR TOPIC THAT
INTERESTS ME IS AS WE HAVE THE
AI SYSTEMS ENGAGE IN MORE
INTRINSIC OR COGNITIVE TASKS
THAT DON'T HAVE NECESSARILY A
DIRECT BEHAVIORAL OUTPUT, HOW DO
WE IDENTIFY IF THEY ARE ENGAGING
THOSE THINGS THAT ARE INTERNALLY
SOURCED, IF YOU WILL?
>> THIS IS APPROPRIATING THE
LANGUAGE OF COGNITIVE
NEUROSCIENCE TO DESCRIBE
COMPUTATIONAL PHENOMENON BUT I
THINK MAYBE INTERESTING
INTERACTION HERE IS THAT THIS IS
A MODEL THAT IT LEARNS THE
DYNAMICS OF THE WORLD AND IT IS
PROGRAMMED BY DESIGN TO TAKE
THIS MODEL HOW THE WORLD WORKS
AND PLAY IT FORWARD AND TRY TO
PREDICT WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS
FOR IT. SEVERAL SECONDS IN THE
FUTURE AND BASED ON THOSE
PREDICTIONS IT WILL CHOOSE HOW
IT WILL ACT IN THE PRESENT TO
MAXIMIZE IN REWARD. TO ME, THIS
IS SIMILAR ENOUGH AS FAR AS I
UNDERSTAND MENTAL TIME TRAVEL,
TO HAVE DONE IT THE SAME WAY OR
SUGGEST AS A MODEL OF MENTAL
TIME TRAVEL ISN'T SOMETHING TO
STUDY MANY COGNITIVE
NEUROSCIENCE NOW YOU HAVE THIS
POWERFUL COMPUTATIONAL MODEL TO
CONTROL INNER WORKINGS OF IT,
THE ENVIRONMENT, SUDDENLY OFFERS
A UNIQUE OPPORTUNITY FOR
RESEARCH IN TIME TRAVEL. IF I
HAVE THE CONCEPT CORRECTLY FROM
THE NEUROSCIENCE STANDPOINT.
>> THERE WAS ONE QUESTION THAT I
BELIEVE JOHN NYE ASKED THE LAST
SESSION, IT MIGHT BE ENTERWOVEN
WHICH IS INFORMING PATIENTS AND
FAMILIES BASED OFF TECHNOLOGIES
THAT PREDICT THINGS YOU WEREN'T
EARLIER ABLE TO. SO BOTH OF YOU
COMMENT WHAT THAT MIGHT MEAN?
>> I THINK TO START WITH THAT
THERE'S ALWAYS A KIND OF BRIGHT
VOLUME DISTINCTION BETWEEN
RESEARCH AND CLINICAL PRACTICE,
AND THAT IS BEGINNING TO FALL
APART OVER THE RECENT YEARS AND
WHEN I THINK ABOUT THAT I DO
AGREE IF YOU HAVE RESULTS YOU
SHOULD SHARE THEM IF YOU ARE
GOING TO SHARE WITH A CLINICAL
TEAM. THE INVESTIGATOR TEAM IS
NOT THEIR NATURAL VECTOR TO
SHARE IT, IT NEEDS TO BE
ACTIONABLE INFORMATION AND THE
VALENCE OF THE INFORMATION
MATTERS LIKE POSITIVE TEST CAN
BE DISPOSITIVE. A NEGATIVE TEST
CAN BE ERRONEOUS SO WE HAVE TO
BE VERY CLEAR IN FRAMING WHAT IT
IS. AS FAR AS THE OBLIGATIONS OF
INVESTIGATORS, I REALLY HAVE
BEEN STRUCK BY HENRY
RICHARDSON'S GROUP ABOUT
ANCILLARY CARE OBLIGATIONS AND I
HAVE WRITTEN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT
THIS AS WELL AND THE CONTEXT HE
WRITES ABOUT HIS THING IS YOU
ARE DOING RESEARCH OVERSEAS AND
PROHIBITED AS AN AMERICAN FUNDED
INVESTIGATOR TO SPEND ANY
AMERICAN DOLLARS AND PROVIDING
HEALTHCARE, DOING HIV RESEARCH
IN EGYPT AND PEOPLE ARE GETTING
HISTOSEW MYSIS, THEY IS RELATED
IN P POOLS OF WATER AND HISTOSO
MYSIS. YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO
USE THE HEALTHCARE THAT RELATES
TO YOUR INVESTIGATION. IF YOU
HAVE A DEGREE OF INVOLVEMENT
WITH THE PATIENTS AND OTHERWISE
ABAY DONNED THE SUBJECTS YOU
HAVE AN ANCILLARY CARE
OBLIGATION, GIVEN ABANDONMENT OF
OUR PATIENT POPULATION AND GIVEN
THE VERY SPECIALIZED EXPERTISE
PEOPLE AT DOC RESEARCH MAY HAVE,
THEN MAYBE NOT BE ABLE TO
DELEGATE TO THE AVERAGE
NEUROLOGIST WHO DOESN'T
UNDERSTAND WHAT THE COMA
RECOVERY SCALE IS SO THAT NEEDS
TO BE WAY TO CROSS OVER THE
CLINICAL PRACTICE RESEARCH
DIVIDE AND BREAK THAT DOWN,
SUSAN WALT HAS WRITTEN WHEN
THOSE KINDS OF THINGS HAPPEN AND
I THINK IF YOU COMBINE
RICHARDSON AND WOLF YOU GET
ACTION ABILITY PROXIMITY AND THE
FACT THAT THERE IS NO ONE ELSE
WHO CAN DO IT AND YOU SHARE THE
INFORMATION. THE FINAL THING,
THE KIND OF INFORMATION WHAT YOU
REALLY NEED TO WORRY ABOUT ARE
TYPE 2 ERRORS. CONSCIOUSNESS IS
THERE BUT YOU DON'T DETECT IT
AND YOU LABEL SOMEBODY, IT IS AN
ERROR OF DETECTION. I THINK WE
ARE NOT ADVANCED ENOUGH TO KNOW
WITH CERTAINTY WHAT A NEGATIVE
TEST MEANS.
>> HI, VERY INTERESTING TALK SO
I HAVE A QUESTION RELATED TO
THIS PANEL, THE PREVIOUS WHICH
IS PRAGMATIC SO WHERE IS THE
MEDICAL ASSURANCE IN THIS? I
MEAN, I DON'T WANT TO BE IN THAT
POSITION, BUT YOU HAVE A
RELATIVE THAT SOMEONE ELSE IS
SAYING THIS IS THE END OF IT AND
YOU HAPPEN TO BE AWARE OF ALL
THESE RESEARCH WOMEN HEAR ABOUT,
HOW CAN YOU ADVOCATE AND TRY TO
PUSH.
>> I'M CURRENTLY PART OF UA
STREET TRIAL THROUGH THE NIH
WHICH IS DEEP BRAIN STIMULATION
IN MODERATE TO SEVERE BRAIN
INJURY. THESE ARE PEOPLE
MINIMALLY CONSCIOUS STATE, THE
EVOLUTION OF THE STUDY, THE
PEOPLE WHETHER CAN GIVE CONSENT
BECAUSE WE DEMONSTRATE EFFICACY
IN THE 2007, SO WE EVOLVE TO
PEOPLE WITH MODERATE TO SEVERE
BRAIN INJURY, GLASGOW TO 7 AS
PARTS OF MY PARTICIPATION IN
INDEPENDENT RF GRANT, WITH BRAIN
INITIATIVE WHERE TALKING TO
PATIENTS CALLED SUBJECTS AND
FAMILIES ABOUT A LOT OF ISSUES
ONE ISSUE THAT COMES UP IS
ASSURANCE AND ONE OF THE KEY
ISSUES THAT COMES UP IS POST
TRIAL OBLIGATIONS. SO WHO IS
RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVE IN
DWELLING DEVICE? THAT WAS
IMPLANTED FOR THIS FIRST STUDY,
EVERYTHING FROM BATTERY
REPLACEMENT WHICH IS $20,000,
MAINTENANCE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T
(INAUDIBLE) THOUGH LIKE A
CARDIAC PATIENT, YOU CAN'T GO
THE AVERAGE EMERGENCY ROOM
BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT TO
DO WITH IT. THIS IS AN AREA
GREAT CONCERN TO THE BRAIN
INITIATIVE ABOUT HOW DO WE CARE
FOR PEOPLE WITH SARA AND ERIC
PIONEERS, THEY PUT THEMSELVES
OUT THERE TO BE SUBJECTS IN
TRIALS, THEY HAVE DEVICES NOT
LIKE IN A DRUG TRIAL AND WE STOP
THE DRUG, THIS IS STILL THERE,
AN END DWELLING DEVICE SO I HAVE
ARGUED THAT I THINK IT IS PARTS
OF THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS.
THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A
SITUATION WHERE IRB IS REQUIRED,
INVESTIGATORS FUNDERS, SPONSORS,
THE INSURANCE COMPANIES,
EVERYBODY TO HAVE A PLAN FOR
POST TRIAL HELP POST STUDY. THE
PROBLEM IS WHAT HAPPENS IF IT
HELPS THE PERSON AND IT HASN'T
PROVEN TORR VET A A THERAPY YET.
IT IS NOT ESTABLISHED. . ONCE
ESTABLISHED AS THERAPY IT TENDS
TO GET COVER LIKE DBS OR
PARKINSON IS COVERED BY CMS,
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE
HAVE HAD THAT SO WE GET INTO A
PROBLEM WITH PAYING FOR
SOMETHING THAT MAY NOT BE PROVEN
TO WORK BUT I THINK WE NEED TO
THINK ABOUT SACRIFICES OF THESE
SUBJECTS THAT MAY AND COMPENSATE
LONGITUDINALLY FOR THE RISKS
GOING INTO THE STUDY. BUT IT IS
COMPLICATED.
>> THAT IS INTERESTING BUT I
ALSO THINK ABOUT THE STEP
BEFORE. HOW DO I CONVINCE
SOMEBODY IT MAYBE WORTH IT TO
CONTINUE WITH THE CARE WHEN
SOMEONE IS DEEMED COMATOSE STAGE
AND THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF
RECOVERY WITHOUT TAKING INTO
ACCOUNT THESE NEW TECHNIQUES
THERE COULD BE POSSIBILITY SO
PREVIOUS STAGE TO THAT, TO BE A
PATIENT IN A CLINICAL TRIAL.
>> PART OF WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO
FIGURE OUT ARE BIOMARKERS TO
PROGNOSTICATE TO GIVE FAMILIES
THAT INFORMATION BUT A LOT OF
TIMES THE FRAMING OF THE
QUESTION IS, THAT THERE IS NO
HOPE FOR RECOVERY WHEN IN FACT
THERE IS SOME HOPE FOR RECOVERY.
AND I RECENTLY HAD LUNCH, HE
KNOWS I TALK ABOUT IT BOB
WOODRUFF ABC NEWS, HE HAD A
BRAIN INJURY IED IN WAR IN IRAQ
AND HE WAS AT BETHESDA. FOR SIX
WEEKS AND THEY WERE ABOUT TO
MAKE A DECISION TO SEND TO A
NURSING HOME, HE WAKE UP AND
SAYS -- HONEY, WHERE HAVE YOU
BEEN? NOW HE IS OFF DOING STUDY
-- STORIES FOR ABC NEWS B, WE
HAD LUNCH TOGETHER, BREAKFAST
TOGETHER IN THE CITY. SO THE
NIHILISM HAS TO BE UNDERSTOOD
AND IT IS NOT LIKE WE WANT TO
PROMOTE A LIFE THAT IS NOT WORTH
CANNOT BE BORNE BY THE PERSON,
OR INCONSISTENT WITH VALUES BUT
KEY THING FOR US IS CLINICAL,
FOLKS IN CLINICAL ETHICISTS IS
TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THE RISK OF
BENEFITS ALTERNATIVES IN
INFORMED CONSENT PROCESS SO
PEOPLE MAKE INFORMED DECISION.
SOMETIMES THEY GET HALF THE
INFORMATION.
>> I LIKE THAT FRAMING AS
BIOMARKERS, PROGNOSTIC
BIOMARKERS THE WAY I THINK ABOUT
IT HAVING MORE INFORMATION ABOUT
BIOMARKERS TO INFORM THE
DISCUSSIONS IS ALWAYS A POSITIVE
THING. I WON'T TALK ABOUT
INSURANCE COMPANIES I HAVE TO DO
A (INAUDIBLE) LATER THIS
AFTERNOON. WE HAVE ONE MORE
QUESTION ONLINE. THIS QUESTION
WAS DIRECTED TOWARD DR. JOHNSON
BUZZ QUESTIONER SAID THEY WOULD
BE INTERESTED IN HEARING WHAT
THE OTHER PANELIST VERSUS TO
OFFER AS WELL. THIS PERSON
WRITES I UNDERSTAND THE FOCUS ON
BIOENERGETICLY DISTANT ANIMALS
ARCI TO PROBE BOUNDARIES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS NEAR TERM ETHICS
ETHICAL DECISION MAKING WHY NOT
PRIORITIZE NON -HUMAN PRIMATES TO
REACH SCIENTIFIC CONSENSUS FOR
RESEARCH AND ETHICAL DECISION
MAKING?
>> I THINK CERTAINLY I THINK MY
TAKE IS A PURE SCIENTIST IS
REALLY DON'T SAY SKEPTICISM BUT
TO ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS IS
MORE A GENERATIVE APPROACH TO
THE RESEARCH SO I'M NOT -- MAYBE
A LITTLE SKEPTICAL OR AT LEAST
MORE PERSONALLY INTERESTED IN
WHAT WE CAN LEARN BY TRYING TO
BUILD CONSCIOUSNESS RATHER THAN
TEASE IT APART, SO FOR ME
NON-HUMAN PRIMATES ARE MAYBE
LESS INTERESTING SINCE I THINK
THEY BARE LESS -- THEY MAY BARE
MORE SIMILARITY THE HUMANS BUT
MUCH LESS SIMILARITY TO MACHINE
THAN ARTHEROPODS OR DROSOPHILA
WHICH IS MORE EXCITE SINCE THEY
ARE MORE ANALOGOUS TO MACHINES.
>> I THINK THIS IS ALSO MORE A
QUESTION FOR SYD. IT SEEMS TO ME
IN TERMS THERE ARE TYPE 11 RISK
OF TYPE 1 ERRORS. IN THIS STUFF
YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT, IT IS
MORE -- IT IS MORE ASYMMETRICAL
BECAUSE THERE IS THE RISK OF
ENDING THE LIFE OF A CONSCIOUS
PERSON VERSUS OKAY YOU KEEP
SOMEONE WHO WILL NEVER RECOVER
CONSCIOUSNESS ON LIFE SUPPORT
FOR A LITTLE WHILE LONGER. THAT
IS A FINANCIAL COST. SOME OF
THESE OTHER CASES, LIKE THINKING
BACK TO JONATHAN'S TALK FROM
YESTERDAY IF WE DECIDE THAT
OCTOPUSES ARE CONSCIOUS BEINGS
THEN LIKE ALL THE PEOPLE WHO
FISH OCTOPUS FOR A LIVING ARE
OUT OF -- THERE IS THESE HUGE
ECONOMIC CONSEQUENCES. IF WE
TURN -- THINK ABOUT AI, IF WE
START DECIDING, IF WE GO WITH
THAT GOGGLE ENGINEER AND DECIDE
OUR CHAT BOTS ARE MORALLY
PEOPLE, THAT COULD HAVE SOME
SERIOUS NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES. I
WONDER IF YOU SHOULD SPEAK TO
THE OTHER BOTH OF YOU SPEAK TO
THE OTHER SIDE OF THE COIN
THERE.
>> I WROTE A PIECE ABOUT THE
ORGANOIDS, I THINK WHICH IS
PROBABLY AS LOW AS YOU CAN GO G.
WHETHER THEY WERE SENTIENT OR
NOT. I SPEND SO MUCH TIME
CONCERNED ABOUT PEOPLE NOT
CONCERNED ABOUT CONSCIOUSNESS OF
PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE CONSCIOUS
THAT I HAVE A HARD TIME WORRYING
ABOUT AN ORGANOID WHEN PEOPLE
HAVE BEEN MARGINALIZED. AND IT
IS -- SEEMS A LITTLE
DISPROPORTION GNAT. AND SO I
WOULD LOOK AT THESE OTHER
ENTITIES AS MODELS AND I THINK
WE HAVE TO BE AS HUMANE AS WE
CAN BE BUT HUMANE IS AN
INTERESTING WORD, APPLIES TO
HUMAN, I THINK YOU HAVE TO
GENERALIZE THAT CONCERN. BUT I
HAVE -- I WOULD RATHER FOCUS ON
A REAL PROBLEM VERY PRESENT FOR
ME AT LEAST IN MY SPACE. I THINK
THERE IS -- I DON'T HAVE THE
BANDWIDTH TO CONSIDER THE OTHER
STUFF, A LOT OF GOOD PEOPLE TO
HAVE THE BAND WITHTO DO THAT.
ONE THING AT -- BANDWIDTH TO DO
THAT. ONE THING INTERESTING IN
THIS MEETING IS SO EXPERTISE IN
THIS ROOM AND SO DEEP IN CERTAIN
AREAS BUT I DON'T THINK THERE'S
ANYONE WHO UNDEREVERYTHING. AND
-- UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING. THAT
IS HUMBLING BUT CONCERNING
BECAUSE HOW DO WE GET OUT OF
SILOS AN LEARN?
WE NEED MORE THESE CROSS DOMAIN
CONVERSATIONS. FOR EXAMPLE, THE
WORK I DESCRIBE TERRY ROSS
RECRUITING IS DISCOVERY IN ADULT
BRAIN BUT WHAT HAPPENS IN THE
PEDIATRIC BRAIN ALL THE TIME.
PEDIATRIC NEUROLOGISTS AND
NEURODEVELOPMENTAL PEOPLE DEAL
WITH ACQUIRED BRAIN INJURY LATER
IN LIFE, NOT REALLY SO WE NEED
CROSS FERTILIZATION, THE BRAIN
INITIATIVE HAS DONE THAT IN A
BRILLIANT WAY BUT WE NEED MORE
MIXING IT UP, WE HAVE MORE A
MOSAIC, WE ARE AL CHALLENGED BY
THINGS WE HAVEN'T HEARD ABOUT OR
DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT TO
INTEGRATE TO OUR OWN WORK.
>> TO GRAB THAT QUESTION UPFRONT
AMOUNT OF PHILOSOPHERS JOE,
MAYBE JONATHAN MORE TO SAY ON
THIS, FOR AI AGENTS ESPECIALLY
REINFORCEMENT LEARNING NOT ONLY
CREATING THE AI AGENTS BUT DON'T
EXIST WITHIN THE WORLD AS WE DO
BUT EXIST IN THE VIRTUAL WORLD
CREATED NOT JUST AGENT BUT THE
ENTIRE UNIVERSE, PERHAPS THAT
SUGGESTS MAYBE WE WOULD HAVE
DIFFERENT OBLIGATIONS TO THEM
EVEN IF THEY DID HAVE
CONSCIOUSNESS.
>> COULD YOU EXPAND A LITTLE BIT
ABOUT THE BIOMARKERS ISSUE? I
THINK THAT IS REALLY
INTERESTING. I DON'T KNOW WHY
THE MRI ISN'T A GOOD-BYE MARKER.
YOU EXPLAINED SOME OF THE
PROBLEMS WE CAN WORK ON THAT BUT
HOW DOES ONE DEVELOP A BIOMARKER
WHEN THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THE
DISEASE IS. FOR EXAMPLE, LONG
COVID WHAT IS THE BIOMARKER FOR
LONG COVID? LET'S AGREE WHAT
LONG COVID IS? THAT IS
DIFFICULT. WHAT IS A BIOMARKER
FOR CONSCIOUSNESS WE HEARD THE
LAST THREE DAYS I'M SOMEBODY WHO
DIDN'T UNDERSTAND MOST OF WHAT
IS GOING ON BUT HOW DO WE BUILD
A BIOMARKER OF CONSCIOUSNESS
WHEN WE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE ARE
LOOKING FOR.
>> I THINK THAT REVEALS ANOTHER
MEDIC QUESTION. THERE'S
FUNDAMENTAL DEFINITIONS WHAT
CONSCIOUSNESS IS AND
INSTRUMENTAL DEFINITIONS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS THAT LIKE MCS. MCS
NEGATIVE, I HAVE LOGICAL
HUMILITY BECAUSE CATEGORIES LIKE
TERRY WALLACE IN 1993 WAS IN
NURSING HOME, HE WAS DESCRIBED
VEGETATIVE AND THE MAN AT THE
OTHER BED HIS MOTHER TOLD ME THE
STORY, OTHER BED AN ELDER MAN
WITH DEMENTIA, ASPHYXIATED
HIMSELF IN THE SHEETS AND DIED.
THE NURSE NEVER STUDYING WHAT
THE VEGETATIVE STATE WAS,
THOUGHT HE LOOKED UPSET SO SHE
CALLED HIS MOM TO COME IN BE
WITH HIM. LATER AFTER TERRY WOKE
UP SHE RECOULDN'T THIRD DEGREE
TO ME AND SHE SAID NOW I KNOW
THAT HE WAS AWARE BECAUSE IT WAS
ALMOST CERTAIN HE WAS MINIMALLY
CONSCIOUS STATE WHEN THAT
HAPPENED AND HE HAD SOME ABILITY
TO UNDERSTAND. THE POINT IS, THE
EVOLUTION OF OUR DIAGNOSTICS IS
WE DID NOT HAVE A NAME FOR THAT
YET. BECAUSE MCS HASN'T BEEN
CODIFIED UNTIL I THINK THE
FOLLOWING AROUND THAT SAME TIME
BUT IT HADN'T BEEN CODIFIED, NOT
IN THE LITERATURE. SO WE NEED TO
THE PROBLEM IS WE ARE GOING TO
HAVE TO DEAL WITH IMPRECISE
CATEGORIES. WE SEE MORE IN
PSYCHIATRY GOING FROM DSM MODEL
EPIDEMIOLOGIC AND DESCRIPTIVE
WHICH IS BETTER THAN
IDIOSYNCRATIC PSYCHOANALYST
THINKING, I THINK THIS IS WHAT
IT IS. NOW WE HAVE CRITERIA BUT
WE ARE MOVING ON TO TOM INS EBBL
STUFF WITH CIRCUIT BASED
CRITERIA SO A CIRCUIT BASED
DISTORTION OF THE MESO CIRCUIT.
DISTORTION DEFAULT NETWORK. WE
WILL GET MORE DISCRETE AND YES
SORTED AT THE STAGE NOW WHERE
YOU CAN HAVE A LUNCH IN YOU ARE
YOU NECK AND SOME PEOPLE DIE,
SOME DIDN'T, SOME HAD BOY SOME
HAD LYMPHOMA, BUT BEFORE A
MICROSCOPE YOU COULDN'T
DISTINGUISH ONE FROM THE OTHER
SO WE ARE AT THE BEGINNING OF
OUR CATEGORIZATION AND WE HAVE
TO HAVE A REAL CONTINGENCY ABOUT
CATEGORIES NOT WEDDED TO THE
CATEGORIES BECAUSE THEY ARE
LIKELY TO EVOLVE AND CHANGE OVER
TIME. THAT IS A GOOD THING. THE
BIOMARKERS WILL HELP US TO
REFINE THOSE CATEGORIES. LIKE
(INAUDIBLE) LISTER WRITES ABOUT
DEPRESSION. THERE'S FOUR TYPES
THERE'S SEVEN KINDS OF LEUKEMIA,
AML LEUKEMIA, THAT CHANGED THE
TREATMENT OF LEUKEMIA, APL USED
TO BE THE BAD LEUKEMIA AND NOW
YOU GET (INAUDIBLE) FOR IT AND
YOU CAN SURVIVE BUT THE
CATEGORIZATION OF DISEASE THAT
LEADS TO THE EVOLUTION OF
THERAPEUTICS. SO I THINK
BIOMARKERS WITH ALL THEIR FLAWS,
INSTRUMENTALLY LOOK AT THEM, AT
WHATEVER THEY CAN DO FOR YOU
PRAGMATICALLY IN THE CLINIC LIKE
A PRAGMATIC TRIAL AND LEARN MORE
AND WE (INAUDIBLE).
>> ONE WE WERE TALKING EARLIER
IS THAT WHAT WE CAN ALL AGREE ON
IS THE NEED FOR BIOMARKERS. OUR
OWN PERSPECTIVE I'M ON CALL FOR
NEUROTRAUMA. I'M CERTAIN THAT
OUR DISCUSSION OF THE NEED FOR
BIOMARKERS WILL BECOME VERY REAL
FOR ME IN SOME PATIENTS I WILL
ENCOUNTER. KIND OF REARE FORCED
BY PRAGUE MATTISM THAT WE HAVE
BUT WE NEED TO DO BETTER.
>> NUMBERS DON'T EQUATE WITH
VALUES. THE APACHE SCORE IN THE
ICU WHICH IS PROGNOSTIC
INDICATOR OF SURVIVABILITY
DIDN'T CHANGE HOW FAMILIES MADE
DECISIONS WHETHER TO WITHDRAW OR
WITHDRAW OUR COUNT SO WITH
BETTER PROGNOSTICATION IT
DOESN'T MEAN THE FAMILY WILL
MAKE THE DECISION THAT A
RATIONAL AGENT WOULD MAKE SO IT
IS COMPLICATED.
>> WE WILL MOVE ON THANKS TO OUR
SPEAKERS FOR THE WONDERFUL
SESSION.
>> THE NEXT SESSION WE WILL HAVE
REPRESENTATIVES OF SEVERAL
FUNDING AGENCIES WHO ARE WE
TAKING A COFFEE BREAK OR MOVING
TO THE NEXT SESSION. SO LUCKY
TO HAVE REPRESENTATIVE SEVERAL
FUNDING AGENCIES TO TELL US ANT
THEIR PERSPECTIVES. OUR FIRST
SPEAKER FOR THIS SESSION IS DR.
JIM KNIGHT.
>> I'M HAPPY TO HAVE THIS MUCH
OPEN DISCUSSION THAT (INAUDIBLE)
(OFF MIC)
>> ON STAGE TODAY WE HAVE -- THE
FIRST SPEAKER IS DR. JIM KNIGHT
A SENIOR PROGRAM DIRECTOR AT
NINDS WHO IS ALSO HEAVILY
INVOLVED IN BRAIN INITIATIVE. SO
HE OVERSEES -- HE IS A CO-LEAD
OF THE INTEGRATIVE AND EXCUSE
DAYTIVE NEUROSCIENCE TEAM AN
OVERSEES BRAIN PROGRAMS IN
UNDERSTANDING CIRCUITS OF THE
CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM, TEAM
SCIENCE RESEARCH PROGRAMS AND
INTRACRANIAL RESEARCH
OPPORTUNITIES IN HUMAN
NEUROSCIENCE. HE HAS A SYSTEMS
NEUROSCIENCE BACKGROUND AND WAS
HEAVILY INVOLVED IN THE
AUGMENTATION AND PLANNING OF
THIS WORKSHOP. HAVE BEEN VERY --
HE PLAYED IMPRESS BY HIS
SCIENTIFIC ORGANIZATIONAL WISDOM
AND FORESIGHT IN THE PLANNING
PROCESS.
>> THANK YOU, PETER. AND
ACTUALLY THE ORGANIZATIONAL
ACUMEN HERE COMES ACTUALLY FROM
YOU AND JONATHAN AND FARA AND --
SO I TAKE NO CREDIT FOR ANY OF
THAT. SO THE IDEA HERE WAS TO
GIVE A SNAP SHOT OF WHAT THE
PEOPLE WHO HAVE ACCESS TO
FUNDING TO HELP YOU, THE
RESEARCHERS, GET YOUR RESEARCH
DONE IN THIS AREA. AND SO WE
WILL TAKE TURNS PRESENTING A
LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION BUT I
WOULDN'T HAPPY TO HAVE THIS AS A
DISCUSSION OF PRESENTATION FROM
MY POINT OF VIEW HERE. ONE OF
THE IMPORTANT THINGS I HAVE SEEN
ABOUT THE CONFERENCE WE HAVE HAD
HERE IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE
RESEARCH COMMUNITY TO COME
TOGETHER AND SEE THE NEED FOR
INTERDISCIPLINARY AND FOCUSED
WORK ON THE AREA OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. SO I THINK THE
RESEARCH COMMUNITY WILL PROBABLY
BENEFIT FROM A WORKSHOP LIKE
THIS. AS MUCH AS WE THE FUNDERS
WILL BENEFIT AND UNDERSTANDING
WHAT THE COMMUNITY IS DOING AND
WHAT WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO TO
HELP. I AM A REPRESENTATIVE OF
ABOUT TWO DOZEN PROGRAM OFFICERS
ACROSS MORE THAN A DOZEN
INSTITUTES AND CENTERS AND
OFFICES AND PROGRAMS AT NIH. WHO
HAVE TAKEN AN INTEREST IN
UNDERSTANDING WHAT IS GOING ON
IN THE FIELD OF CONSCIOUSNESS
AND LOOK AT HOW NIH MIGHT BE
ABLE TO FACILITATE THE RESEARCH
IN CONSCIOUSNESS. WHAT DOES THAT
MEAN IN THE FUTURE? THAT YOU
WILL HAVE PROGRAM OFFICERS
INTERESTED IN CONSCIOUSNESS AT
THEIR INSTITUTES AND HELP
PROMOTE WITHIN THEIR INSTITUTE.
THE OTHER SPECTRUM OF THINGS
COULD MEAN NEW NIH DIRECTOR WE
CREATE A NEW INSTITUTE OF
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH. SO
SOMEWHERE IN THAT SPECTRUM I
THINK THIS WORKSHOP HOPEFULLY
WILL BE HELPFUL TO YOU AS
RESEARCHERS. THE AUDIENCE HAS
THINNED OUT HERE BUT THIS IS
BEING RECORDED SO THE MANY
PEOPLE WILL HAVE ACCESS TO THIS
INFORMATION.
>> HERE WE GO. JUST TO GET SOME
CREDIT HERE FOR ONE THING. THE
FUNDING THAT CAME FROM NIH TO
SUPPORT THIS WORKSHOP CAME FROM
THE NIH BLUEPRINT, A
CONFEDERATION OF ABOUT A DOZEN
INSTITUTES ACROSS THE NIH WHO
HAVE SOME INTEREST IN THE
NEUROSCIENCES AND THE
NEUROTHERAPIES. AND ALSO THE NIH
BRAIN INITIATIVE WHICH YOU KNOW
ABOUT IS A A SEPARATE PROGRAM
THAT REALLY SPECIALIZES IN THE
FUNDAMENTAL BIOLOGYNA THE
INSTITUTES DON'T. -- BIOLOGY
THAT THE INSTITUTES DON'T. THIS
CAME FROM THE NIH INITIATIVE AND
LEADERSHIP AND I THANK BOTH OF
THOSE PROGRAMS FOR HELPING WITH
THAT. I'M JUST GOING TO QUICKLY
GIVE YOU A SURVEY OF WHAT NIH IS
FUNDENING THE CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH. I DID THIS ABOUT A
YEAR AND A HALF AGO WHEN TALKING
TO THE TEMPLETON FOUNDATION.
THIS DATA IS STALE BY TWO YEARS.
BUT I THINK IT GIVES YOU A
PICTURE THAT NIH DOES HAVE A
FOOTPRINT IN FUNDING
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH. I HAVE
HEARD FROM A NUMBER OF THE
PEOPLE HERE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN
TOLD OH DON'T PUT CONSCIOUSNESS
IN TITLE OF YOUR APPLICATION. IT
WILL KILL IT. SO IT IS HARD TO
FIND SUPPORT FOR CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH WHEN YOU DON'T PUT P IT
INTO YOUR ABSTRACT AND TITLES.
BUT I TRIED TO DO THAT. I'M --
THEN I WILL QUICKLY GO THROUGH A
SURVEY OF WHAT THE NIH PROGRAM
AVAILABLE TO YOU NOW ARE TO FUND
YOUR INTEREST IN CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH. WE WILL SEE WHAT
HAPPENS WITH TIME IN THE FUTURE
THE WAY I DID THIS I USED A TOOL
LIKE THE NIH REPORTER THAT ANY
OF YOU COULD DO. USE, AND
SEARCHED FOR KEY WORDS FINGER
PRINTS THAT NIH HAS MADE THAT
INCORPORATE OR APPROXIMATE
INCLUDE CONSCIOUSNESS. IT IS
IMPERFECT FINGERPRINT SO THESE
NUMBERS ARE NOT PERFECT NUMBERS,
WAY TOO MANY FALSE POSITIVES SO
I HAD TO DO A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
MANUAL CULLING OF THIS. I WANT
TO EMPHASIZE THESE NUMBERS ARE
APPROXIMATE BUT DOES GIVE YOU AN
IDEA OF THE FOOTPRINT NIH DOES
HAVE IN FUNDING CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH. TOTAL I CAME UP WITH
YOU SEE THERE IS ABOUT 17 TO $18
MILLION THAT WAS BEING SPENT IN
RESEARCH THAT HAD TO DO WITH
CONSCIOUSNESS. IT IS NOT A SMALL
AMOUNT OF MONEY ON THE LEFT I
DIVIDED THAT BY THE INSTITUTES
AND CENTERS THAT WERE SUPPORTING
THOSE FUNDS, MOST AS YOU CAN SEE
CAME FROM THE NEUROLOGY
INSTITUTE NS. THE GENERAL
MEDICINE INSTITUTE THAT IS GM.
THAT IS LARGELY ANESTHESIA
RESEARCH BECAUSE THEY ARE
RESPONSIBLE FOR UNDERSTANDING
THE MECHANISMS AND THE
IMPLICATIONS, APPLICATIONS OF
ANESTHESIA. THE MENTAL HEALTH
INSTITUTE AS WELL AS OTHERS AS
YOU HAVE SEEN ON THERE. IT IS BY
DOLLARS ON THE LEFT AND NUMBERS
OF AWARDS ON THE RIGHT. SO I
THINK WE CAN CONCLUDE THAT THE
MAJOR MONEY GOING TO RESEARCH
THAT WOULD BE LABELED
CONSCIOUSNESS COMES FROM GENERAL
MEDICINE NEUROLOGY AND MENTAL
HEALTH. BY GRANT MECHANISM I
DIVIDED BY GRANT MECHANISM AND
BY AND LARGE THE LARGEST PART OF
THAT PIE WE CALL RESEARCH
PROJECT GRANTS, THOSE WHO ARE
FAMILIAR WITH NIH FUNDING THOSE
RO1s AND R21s STANDARD
FUNDING MECHANISMS YOU CAN SEE K
AWARDS, THOSE ARE MENTORED EARLY
CAREER AWARDS, F AWARDS
FELLOWSHIP AWARDS AND A FEW
MECHANISMS LIKE THE DP 2 ONE OF
THE HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD
PROGRAMS WITH OFFICE OF THE
DIRECTOR OF THE NIH. THEN I
TRIED TO -- THIS REQUIRE AD
LITTLE BIT OF MANUAL CURATION AS
WELL AS SOME AUTOMATED CURATION
BUT I TRIED TO DIVIDE ALL THIS
UP IN TO WHAT WAS THE MAJOR
TOPIC, THE MAYOR THRUST OF WHAT
THE RESEARCH WAS TRYING TO
ACCOMPLISH AND I DIVIDED INTO
WHAT I CALL NEURAL MECHANISMS, A
MECHANISTIC UNDERSTANDING OF
CONSCICONSCIOUSNESS OR NEURAL
THERAPEUTICS THAT IS APPLIED
RESEARCH THAT HAD -- HAD TO DO
WITH CONSCIOUSNESS. ANESTHESIA,
SPECIFICALLY MECHANISMS AND THE
APPLICATION OF ANESTHESIA,
COGNITION AND BEHAVIOR AND
ETHICS AND AS YOU CAN SEE WHICH
AND LARGE, MOST OF THE RESEARCH
WAS ON NEURAL MECHANISM, TRYING
TO GET A MECHANISTIC
UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT
CONSCIOUSNESS MIGHT BE IN THE
BIOLOGICAL MACHINE. AND MOST OF
IT WAS IN HUMANS OR OTHER
MAMMALS, I DON'T HAVE THAT ON
HERE BECAUSE THAT DATA IS HARD
TO GET. OUT OF THESE DATABASES.
MOST WAS HUMANS, MAMMALS SUCH AS
RODENTS,ERS THERE WEREN'T A LOTS
OF SPECIAL SPECIES, I DON'T
THINK THERE WERE ANY OCTOPUS IN
THIS YEAR AND A HALF AGO. AND
YOU CAN SEE THE -- THE NEURAL
THERAPEUTICS THIS WOULD BE LIKE
STUDIES OF EPILEPSY AND
RELATIONSHIP TO CONSCIOUSNESS
AND THAT IS A FAIR SIZE OF THIS.
THEN A MINORITY ON COGNITION AND
BEHAVIOR, ONE AWARD ON ETHICS AT
THAT TIME. THIS WAS QUITE
REVEALING. WHERE WERE THESE
APPLICATIONS REVIEWED? BECAUSE
IT IS VERY IMPORTANT SO THESE
WERE ALL AWARDED GRANTS. IT IS
VERY IMPORTANT TO KNOW WHERE
YOUR PROPOSAL IS GETTING
REVIEWED BECAUSE IT IS THE
REVIEW THAT GETS THE SCORE AND
THE SCORE DETERMINES WHETHER A
GIVEN INSTITUTE FUNDS THAT
RESEARCH AND THE REVIEW PANELS
ARE BY AND LARGE SEPARATE FROM
THE INSTITUTES. SO THESE ARE
REVIEW PANELS MOSTLY AT THE
CENTER FOR SCIENTIFIC REVIEW NOT
SPECIFIC ICs. SAT IS WHERE
ANESTHESIA WOULD GO. ANNIE IS --
WHAT IS ANNI STAND FOR, ONE OF
MY NIH COLLEAGUES, YOU REMEMBER
(OFF MIC)
THE LARGEST PART IS
>> OKAY. THAT'S EPILEPSY.
SPECIAL EMPHASIS PANELS, THOSE
ARE THE ONES THAT GO
SPECIFICALLY TO IC FOR REVIEW
RATHER THAN THE CENTER FOR
SCIENTIFIC REVIEW. BUT WHAT I
WOULD CONCLUDE FROM THIS IS
CONSCIOUSNESS DOES NOT GET A
CONSISTENT CAPTURE REVIEW WHEN
IT COMES TO NIH. THERE IS NO
REVIEW PANEL ON CONSCIOUSNESS.
AS WE KNOW FROM LAST COUPLE OF
DAYS, MANY FACETS TO
CONSCIOUSNESS AND CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH SO YOU WOULDN'T
NECESSARILY EXPECT ETHICS GO TO
THE SAME REVIEW PANEL BIOLOGICAL
MECHANISM PANEL WOULD BE BUT IT
IS STRIKING THERE IS NOT A
CONSISTENT PLACE FOR
CONSCIOUSNESS TO BE REVIEWED AT
NIH. A QUESTION. IC INSTITUTES
AND CENTERS. NEUROLOGY, MENTAL
HEALTH, EYE INSTITUTE,
TESTIFINESS INSTITUTE. SO ON.
DEAFNESS INSTITUTE. SO ON.
(OFF MIC)
>> SPECIAL EMPHASIS PANELS.
THESE WERE ALL IC STEPS THOUGH.
YEAH. YEAH. SPECIAL EMPHASIS
PANEL IS NOT STANDING PANEL. IT
IS ONE WHERE THERE IS A SPECIAL
CALL, SPECIAL SCOPE OF WORK --
OF SCIENCE AND SO YOU GET THE
REVIEWERS THAT WOULD BE SPECIFIC
FOR THAT SCOPE OF SCIENCE. WHAT
A SPECIAL EMPHASIS PANEL IS. T
>> I NICE TO MEET YOU. WE SPOKE.
NICE TO MEET YOU, WE SPOKE A
WHILE AGO. ABOUT GRANT
STRATEGIES THANK YOU FOR YOUR
ADVICE AND HELP. CURIOUS TO ME
THIS LOOKS LIKE A SMALL NUMBER
OF GRANTS. BUT I DON'T KNOW I'M
COMPARED TO THE TOTAL NUMBER OF
GRANTS THAT EXIST IN CLINICAL
AND NON-CLINICAL NEUROSCIENCES
LOOKS LIKE A TOTAL OF 40 GRANTS
SO WHAT IS THE TOTAL NUMBER.
WHAT IS THE DENOMINATOR? IT
SEEMS LIKE A TINY NUMBER TO ME
BUT IT COULD BE MISTAKEN.
>> IF YOU WERE -- IF YOU WERE TO
TAKE SOMETHING LIKE EPILEPSY?
THESE ARE RELATIVELY SMALL
NUMBENUMBERS. SOMETHING SPECIFIE
EPILEPSY. IF YOU TAKE A BEHAVIOR
YOUR LIKE SOCIAL BEHAVIORS, THIS
IS A RELATIVELY LARGE NUMBER FOR
IF YOU WERE TO PICK UP BEHAVIOR.
CONSIDER CONSCIOUSNESS AS
BEHAVIOR HOW MUCH IS FUNDED AT
THE NIH. IT IS NOT HUGE. $18
MILLION A YEAR IS ENOUGH TO GET
SOMETHING DONE.
>> HOW ABOUT ATTENTION, MEMORY,
PERCEPTION, THOSE ANALOGOUS
SORTS OF FIELDS OF RESEARCH,
ATTENTION, THOSE KINDS OF
THINGS. WHAT IS THE NUMBER OF
GRANTS IN THOSE FIELDS OPPOSED
TO CONSCIOUSNESS. THAT MIGHT BE
A PAIRLY --
>> COMPARED NUMBERS FOR YOU
HERE.
>> CURIOUS.
>> LEARNING AND MEMORY WOULD BE
LARGER THAN THIS. BUT ATTENTION
MIGHT BE A LIT LARGER PROBABLY
NOT A LOT LARGER. DECISION
MAKING IS SOMETHING THAT GETS --
BUT NOT SURE HOW MUCH BIGGER
DECISION -- PERCEPTION.
>> PERCEPTION USUALLY GOES TO
THE INSTITUTE OF THAT ORGAN LIKE
THE EYE INSTITUTE OR DEAFNESS
INSTITUTE. SO PERCEPTION USUALLY
GOES TO A SPECIFIC INSTITUTE.
AND OF COURSE THEIR INTERESTS
ARE FOCUSED SPECIFICALLY ON THAT
BUT I KNOW MAYBE SHARON WIGS IS
ONLINE BUT THE EYE INSTITUTE.
WHEN IT LOOKS AT FUNDING IT
CHUNK THE VARIOUS ASPECT OF
VISION INTO THE RETINA, THE
ANTERIOR EYE, CENTRAL NERVOUS
SYSTEM AND THEY LOOK AT THE
FUNDING WITHIN EACH OF THOSE
GROUPS TO MAKE DECISIONS ON WHAT
IS IMPORTANT TO GET FUNDED SO
THERE IS A GOOD DISTRIBUTION
ACROSS ALL OF VISION FOR
EXAMPLE, I USED TO BE FUNDED BY
EYE INSTITUTE SO I CAN SPEAK TO
THAT A BIT BUT I DON'T KNOW
POLICIES OF ALL THE INSTITUTES.
IT IS NOT A HUGE AMOUNT OF
MONEY. BUT I DON'T THINK IT IS A
TRIVIAL AMOUNT OF MONEY THIS IS
A SNAP SHOT WHAT I FOUND WHEN I
LOOK AT THIS ROUGHLY TWO YEARS
AGO. THIS IS A WORD CLOUD OF
GRANTS TO GET SOME IDEA OF WHAT
THE EMPHASIS OF ALL THESE
AWARDS, THIS COMES FROM THE
ABSTRACT AND THE TITLES, A WORD
CLOUD FROM THAT. YOU CAN SEE
FROM ANESTHESIA CONSCIOUSNESS OF
COURSE IS LARGE BECAUSE THAT WAS
THE -- ONE OF THE KEY WORDS.
FUNCTIONAL STUDIES, ANESTHESIA,
COGNITIVE STATES AND SLEEP.
NETWORK AND PREDICTIONS.
INTERESTING EXPLAINED IN HERE.
STIMULATION OF THALAMUS. NOTABLE
THEMES, THESE ARE JUST MY OWN
IMPRESSION AS I WAS LOOKING DOWN
THE LIST OF GRANTS, ANESTHESIA,
COMA, PERTURBATIONS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS FOR PROMINENT
THING THAT I COULD FIND IN THE
AWARDS. AND BRAIN ACTIVITY AND
CONNECTIVITY AND FUNCTIONAL
STUDIES. MOSTLY TAKEN FROM
DISORDERED PATIENTS WHICH RATHER
THAN NORMAL SUBJECTS. THERE WAS
A LOT OF EMPHASIS ON FUNCTIONAL
NETWORK AND STATE TRANSITIONS
WHICH GIVEN WHAT CONSCIOUSNESS
PROBABLY IS FOR US ALL, THAT
MAKES SENSE TO ME. THERE WAS A
LOT -- AND THEN BRAIN AND
CORTICAL THALAMIC BEHAVIORAL
COGNITIVE UNDERSTANDING WERE
THEMES HARP PROMINENT IN WHAT I
SAW IN THE LIST. THIS IS A SNAP
SHOT. I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE
INFORMATIVE FOR US, ME, AT NIH
TO LOOK AT THIS. I THINK IT IS
INSTRUCTIVE TO SHARE. HERE.
THESE ARE DATA THAT YOU CAN GET
TO YOURSELF FOR THE NIH REPORTER
BECAUSE THESE WERE AWARDED
GRANTS. VERY QUICKLY I WILL GO
THROUGH WHAT IS AVAILABLE TO YOU
NOW AS CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCHERS
HOW COULD YOU APPLY TO NIH TO
GET MONEY FOR YOUR RESEARCH
THERE ARE THE PARENT FUNDING
MECHANISMS, THE RO1, R21, VERY
BOTTOM OF EACH OF THESE
HIGHLIGHTED IN FUNNY COLOR THERE
COLOR DEFECTIVE SO I CAN'T GUESS
WHAT THE COLOR MIGHT BE BUT I
CAN SEE IT WELL. IS THE NUMBER
OF AWARDS I FOUND IN THESE
VARIOUS MECHANISMS, SUCH A A
LITTLE BIT OF INFORMATION. THIS
IS STANDARD FUNDING MECHANISM
MOST OF THESE REVIEWS ARE
THROUGH THE CSR REVIEW, REVIEWED
AT THESE NON-SPECIFIC
NON-CONSCIOUSNESS FOCUSED REVIEW
PANELS. THERE ARE PLENTY OF
TRAINING PROGRAMS AND THERE WERE
PLENTY OF AWARDS NUMBER OF
AWARDS WITHIN TRAINING PROGRAMS.
THERE ARE F 31 AND F 32
POST-DOCTORAL AN PRE-DOCTORAL
TRAINING PROGRAMS, KO 8 MENTORED
CLINICAL SCIENTIST AWARDS, K99 R
300 IS A TRANSITION FOR ADVANCED
RESEARCH SCIENTIST OR POST DOCS
AND MAKING A TRANSITION INTO A
FIRST FACULTY AWARD. SO THERE
WAS REPRESENTATION AMONG ALL
THESE TRAINING PROGRAMS FOR
PEOPLE WHO WERE DOING RESEARCH
IN CONSCIOUSNESS. THESE ARE SOME
OF THE SPECIALTY FUNDING
PROGRAMS. THESE ARE NOT THE
PARENT PROGRAMS THAT WE GO --
WOULD GO TO THE VARIOUS
INSTITUTE INTERESTS, THESE ARE
ESPECIALLY FUNDING PROGRAMS. AND
THERE IS A COUPLE OF INSTITUTES
HAVE AN RM 1 COLLABORATIVE
PROGRAM TO GET
MULTI-DISCIPLINARY RESEARCH MANY
THE DOOR. NIGMS HAD ONE OF THOSE
FOR A FEW YEARS AND NINDS JUST
ISSUED ONE SO THIS IS A TEAM,
SMALL TEAM RESEARCH APPROACH TO
THE RESEARCH QUESTIONS. NIMH HAS
SEVERAL PROGRAMS THAT MIGHT BE
RELEVANT IF YOU ARE INTERESTED
IN VARIOUS ASPECT OF
CONSCIOUSNESS THERE IS EXECUTIVE
FUNCTIONS PROGRAM. YOU CAN
CONTACT AN VIEW ROSSI I IMAGINE
IS ONLINE TODAY, IF YOU HAD
QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT. BRAIN
DYNAMICS PROGRAM, (INAUDIBLE)
GOMEZ IS THE PROGRAM DIRE DIRECR
FOR THAT, HE IS CO-LEAD WITH ME
FOR THE BRAIN TEAM FUNDING THE
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH I WILL
GET TO IN A MOMENT. AND GIVEN
THE TALKS EARLIER THIS WEEK,
PSYCH DELLICS RELATED COMPOUNDS,
THERE IS A PROGRAM FOR THAT AT
NIMH. IF YOU HAD AN INTEREST IN
THAT YOU MIGHT LOOK AT THAT
EMAIL ADDRESS THAT YOU SEE
THERE. FROM NINDS, SYSTEMS AND
COMPUTATIONAL NEUROSCIENCE
PORTFOLIO IS NOW HELD BY LESLIE
OSBOURNE. IF MORE NEUROLOGICAL
ROW THAN MENTAL HEALTH LESLIE
WOULD BE THE ONE TO TALK TO OR
ME, THAT WAS MY FORMER PORTFOLIO
AT NINDS. THEN THE BRAIN
INITIATIVE HAS A SET OF PROGRAMS
LISTED NEXT ON THE LIST HERE.
THERE IS A U-19 TEAM RESEARCH
PROGRAMS WHICH USES A
MULTI-COMPONENT PROGRAM, IT IS
LIKE PUTTING TOGETHER MULTIPLE
RO1s, MAYBE THREE, FOUR, FIVE
RO1 SIZE PROJECTS AND THEY MIGHT
HAVE CORES SO RESOURCE CORES
THAT WOULD SUPPORT THE PROJECTS,
THE IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THIS
TEAM RESEARCH PROGRAM IS, THIS
IS AN EXPERIMENT THAT THE BRAIN
INITIATIVE IS DOING IN HOW TO
FUNDS NEUROSCIENCE. IF -- IT
CERTAINLY CAN BE RELATED TO
CONSCIOUSNESS. YOU CAN COME WITH
A CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH TO ANY
PROGRAM. AS LONG AS THE EMPHASIS
IS ON UNDERSTANDING AT A
MECHANISTIC LEVEL OF BRAIN
CIRCUMSTANCES, THAT'S A
REQUIREMENT OF THESE PROGRAMS.
ONE OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS
TEAM RESEARCH PROGRAM USING THIS
U-19 MECHANISM IS THEY MUST BE
PROJECTS THAT TO BE SUCCESSFUL
THEY MUST BE DONE COLLECTIVELY,
THEY MUST BE DONE TOGETHER. A
PROGRAM PROJECT WITH THREE OR
FOUR RO1s WORKING IN PARALLEL
DOESN'T FIT. IT HAS TO BE A
PROGRAM WHERE THE PROJECTS TO BE
SUCCESSFUL THEY MUST BE DONE
COLLECTIVELY.
>> HOW TRANSLATIONAL CAN THEY BE
AS FAR AS BASIC MECHANISM?
>> QUESTION HOW APPLIED OR TRAN
LAKESSAL VERSUS BASIC. AND --
TRANSLATIONAL VERSUS BASIC. THE
BRAIN INITIATIVE EXISTS IN LARGE
PART TO DO WHAT THE INSTITUTES
DON'T. SO IF TRULY TRANSLATIONAL
FOR NEUROLOGY, OR FOR A MENTAL
HEALTH, IT SHOULD GO TO THOSE
INSTITUTES. SO YOU MIGHT THINK
OF RO1 PROGRAM, BRAIN INITIATIVE
MORE TOWARDS FUNDAMENTAL
UNDERSTANDING BASIC FUNDAMENTAL
NEUROSCIENCE OF CONSCIOUSNESS OR
CONSCIOUSNESS LIKE MECHANISMS OF
BRAIN MECHANISMS THAT IMPACT
CONSCIOUSNESS. IF TRULY
TRANSLATIONAL OR APPLIED IT
SHOULD GO TO INSTITUTE THAT
WOULD HAVE THAT SPECIALTY.
(OFF MIC)
>> CONVERGENCE IS THIS EQUAL
MECHANISM GROWING CONVERGENCE AT
NSF? IS IT SIMILAR KIND OF TYPE
OF THING?
>> WE'LL HAVE A TALK FROM NSF IN
FEW MINUTES.
>> I WAS WONDERING SCOPE, HOW
MUCH MONEY.
>> SCOPE OF MONEY FOR -- I THINK
THE NIGMS I THINK THE CAPPED 1
MILLION DIRECT COST PER YEAR.
THE RM 1 AT NINDS IS NOT CAPPED
BUT MUST BE JUSTIFIED. FOR THE
SIZE THE U 19 DOES NOT HAVE A
CAP BUT MUST BE JUSTIFIED TO FIT
THE SCOPE OF THE WORK. BECAUSE
NAY ARE LARGE PROGRAMS THE SIZE
OF THREE SOMETIMES FOUR OR FIVE
RO1s THEY CAN HAVE DIRECT COST
BUDGETS UP TO THE MILLIONS PER
YEAR. IT HAS TO FIT THE SCOPE OF
THE WORK. THERE IS A UO 1
PROGRAM THAT IS EXPLORATORY
FEEDER PROGRAM INTO THAT. I
DIDN'T PUT IT ON TO THIS LIST.
IT DOES EXIST YOU CAN TALK TO ME
OR KAREN, THE PROGRAM OFFICER
FOR THAT EXPLORATORY VERSION.
OF THIS U 19 WE HAVE A RESEARCH
OPPORTUNITIES IN HUMANS PROGRAMS
AND SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE
BEEN HERE THIS WEEK HAVE FUNDING
FROM THIS PROGRAM, THE
OPPORTUNITY NEUROSURGELY YOU
HAVE ACCESS DIRECTLY TO THE
BRAIN TO OR OR MANIPULATE IN THE
BRAIN TO ASK NEUROSCIENCE
QUESTIONS, SO IT IS NOT
TRANSLATIONAL, NOT THERAPEUTIC,
AND IT IS NOT FOR THERAPEUTIC
IMPACT TO THE PATIENTS, IT IS
FOR THE PATIENTS TO BE A
VOLUNTEER BECAUSE YOU ARE
RECORDING AND HAVE ACCESS TO
THEIR BRAIN AND ASK A QUESTION
ABOUT HOW DOES THE BRAIN WORK.
YOU CAN CERTAINLY DO THAT FOR A
CONSCIOUSNESS STUDY. WE USED TO
HAVE EXPLORATORY VERSION OF THIS
RO 8 RESEARCH OPPORTUNITIES AND
PROGRAMS, WE JUST BROUGHT IT
BACK. THERE SHE IS IN THE BACK
PROGRAM OFFICER FOR THAT. SO IT
IS THE EXPLORATORY FEEDER
VERSION OF THIS RESEARCH
OPPORTUNITIES IN HUMANS. IT IS
A THREE YEAR PROGRAM. ENABLING
STEP TO ALLOW WHAT YOU NEED TO
DO TO GET TO LARGER FIVE YEAR
AWARD OF RESEARCH ROH PROGRAM
YOU CAN TALK TO MIRAV (PHONETIC)
ABOUT THAT. WE HAVE A NEW SET
OF PROGRAMS CALLED THE BRAIN
BEHAVIOR QUANTIFICATION AND
SYNCHRONIZATION, BBQS PROGRAMS.
THERE IS ONE -- SO THE PURPOSE
OF THIS IS TO ASSAYS OF BEHAVIOR
TO THE SAME HIGH CONTENT AND
HIGH TEMPO RESOLUTION AS NEURAL
RECORDINGS. SO TO GET FROM
HAVING SURVEYS OF PATIENTS WHICH
HAS NO TEMPORAL RESOLUTION TO IT
TO SOME BEHAVE ASSAY LIKE SEE
ME, YES, SEE ME THAT HAS HIGH
CONTENT AND HIGH TEMPORAL
RESOLUTION ROUGHLY EQUAL TO
NEURAL RECORDINGS THEMSELVES.
RU 61 WHICH TRANSITIONS TO R 33
SO A MILESTONE DRIVEN KIND OF
PROGRAM. THERE IS A HUMAN
CRITTER VERSION OF IT. HOLLY
MOORE IS HERE. HOLLY WAVE YOUR
HAND, HE , SHE IS NOT HERE NOW.G
AN R34, A PLANNING MECHANISM,
LIKE -- IT IS LIKE AN R21. SO
THIS AGAIN IS ENABLING STEP IN
THE BEHAVIORAL ASSAYS CRITTERS
WITH HIGH RESOLUTION. YOU CAN
IMAGINE IF WE HAVE AENINGS
EMPLOYERTORY VERSION E WILL BE
RATIVE VERSION SOMETIME IN THE
FUTURE -- EXPLORATORY VERSION.
THEN A PROGRAM I WILL MENTION
AND JONATHAN MAY TALK TOO, THERE
IS A JOINT AGENCY PROGRAM
COLLABORATIVE RESEARCH AND
COMPUTATIONAL NEUROSCIENCE
PROGRAM, IT IS BY DEFINITION
EXPERIMENTALIST WHO COLLABORATE
WITH A THEORY OR MODELING OR
QUANTITATIVE APPROACHES PERSON
ON A SPECIFIC QUESTION. AND THE
QUESTION CAN CERTAINLY BE ABOUT
CONSCIOUSNESS OR MECHANISMS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. A PROGRAM WHERE
APPLICATIONS ARE REVIEWED IN AN
NSF REVIEW PANEL WITH A NIH SRO
WHO CO--- IS AT THE REVIEW AND
DEPENDING WHAT THE TOPIC OF THE
RESEARCH PROGRAM IS AND HOW WELL
IT SCORES IT CAN BE PICKED UP BY
EITHER AGENCY AND PICKED UP BY
ANY OF THE TEN INSTITUTE WHO
PARTICIPATE IN THIS PROGRAM. SO
IT WOULD INCLUDE MENTAL HEALTH
NEUROLOGY AND MOST OF THE
NEUROINSTITUTES THAT YOU WOULD
THINK ABOUT. THOSE ARE PROGRAMS
YOU CAN USE NOW TO GET IN THE
DOOR AT NIH. THEY ARE ALSO HIGH
RISK HIGH REWARD RESEARCH
PROGRAMS, PIONEER AWARD, THE NEW
INNOVATOR AWARD, TRANSFORMATIVE
RESEARCH AWARDS AND EARLY
INDEPENDENCE AWARDS. GO DIRECTLY
THROUGH THE OFFICE OF THE NIH
DIRECTOR NOT THROUGH AN
INSTITUTE. TO SOME EXTENT THEY
ARE MORE FUND THE PERSON RATHER
THAN FUND THE PROJECT KIND OF
REVIEW. TO SIMPLIFY THINGS A
BIT. SO THANKS FOR EVERYBODY TO
BE HERE. THOSE OF US AT NIH
EITHER IN THE ROOM OR ONLINE, WE
ARE HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU IF YOU
HAVE QUESTIONS. AND I HAVE
LEARNED AD LOT AND EXCITED TO
SEE WHERE THIS GOES. IN THE
COMING YEARS. THANKS.
>> OUR SECOND SPEAKER FOR THIS
SESSION IS DR. JONATHAN
FRITZSCHE, GREAT PLEASURE TO
INTRODUCE HIM, THE PROGRAM
DIRECTOR OF THE COGNITIVE
NEUROSCIENCE PROGRAM AT NSF. HE
ALSO OVERSAW IS OVERSEEING THE
NSF BRAIN INITIATIVE PROGRAM NCS
PROGRAM, I HAVE BEEN VERY
FORTUNATE TO INTERACT WITH
JONATHAN THE LAST YEAR ALSO
PLANNING FOR THIS WORKSHOP. HE
REALLY WAS A PERSON BEHIND BRAIN
NSF AND NIH TOGETHER MAKING THIS
WORKSHOP A POSSIBILITY AND
REALITY. VERY MUCH GRATEFUL FOR
JONATHAN FOR DOING THAT. AND FOR
BRINGING (INAUDIBLE) TO DISCUSS
THESE EXCITING TOPICS.
>> THANKS TO ALL THE SURVIVORS
WHO STUCK AROUND TO THE LAST
HOUR OF THE LAST DAY OF THIS
CONFERENCE. IT'S BEEN REALLY
EXCITING. AND I'M GOING TO GIVE
FAIRLY BRIEF REMARKS. WHAT I
WANT YOU TO DO IS GET A BRIEF
OVERVIEW OF WHAT NSF CAN OFFER.
IF YOU WANT TO FOLLOW-UP GET
MANY TOUCH WITH ME. I WOULD BE
HAPPY TO RESPOND QUICKLY BECAUSE
I WANT TO SUPPORT THIS WORK.
BOTH JIM AND I HAD GONE TO
LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND GONE TO
A MEETING TEMPLETON ORGANIZED IN
MARCH, IT WAS THERE FOR A YOUNG
INVESTIGATORS WHO WANTED TO GET
FUNDING FOR CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH AND TEMPLETON DANGLED A
LITTLE MONEY FOR THE MOST
SUCCESSFUL PROPOSALS OF THE 20
PEOPLE SELECTED. AND IT WAS A
GOOD OPPORTUNITY TO BRAINSTORM
AND FOR SENIOR INVESTIGATORS TO
INTERACT WITH YOUNGER PEOPLE WHO
WANTED TO EXPLORE THIS FIELD AND
WE ARE A LITTLE NERVOUS ABOUT
USING THIS WORD CONSCIOUSNESS IN
THEIR PROPOSALS. BOTH JIM AND I
AND HAL HAD GONE TO THE MEETING
AND WE DECIDED WE WERE GOING TO
GO TO TALK DIRECTLY WITH THE
PEOPLE AT THE TEMPLETON
FOUNDATION TO GET A FEEL FOR
WHAT COULD BE DONE TO ENHANCE
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH AFTER $20
MILLION DISSIPATED. THEY FUNDED
A REALLY EXCITED SET OF STUDIES
WE HEARD ABOUT ALREADY FROM
CHRIS AND JEWEL OWE AND STAN FOR
ADVERSARIAL RESEARCH BUT THAT
$20 MILLION IS ONLY INTENDED TO
LAST FIVE YEARS, SO ONE OF THE
THINGS WE THOUGHT WAS HERE IS A
COMMUNITY TO SUSTAIN AND PROVIDE
FROM NIH AND NSF TO GET THE
EXCITING WORK GOING. THAT WAS
PART OF THE IMPETUS FOR THIS
WORKSHOP. TO GET A FEEL FOR
WHERE WE ARE AT, WHERE WE ARE
GOING AND HOW NSF AND NIH AND
OTHER AGENCIES INCLUDING OTHER
FEDERAL AGENCIES THAT FUND WORK
IN THIS AREA CAN SUPPORT. SEE IF
I CAN ADVANCE THIS P. HERE IS
THE NSF BUILDING, ALEXANDRIA
NOW. I HAVE BEEN THERE FOUR
TIMES THE LAST THREE YEARS, IT
IS A VERY NICE BUILDING. I GOT
LOST THERE, COULDN'T REMEMBER
WHICH FLOOR DIRECTOR WAS UNAWARE
WHICH OFFICE WAS BUT I HAVE GONE
THERE FOR FINGERPRINTING. IT IS
A GREAT PLACE. ONE ADVANTAGE IS
THEY HAVE A MORE EFFICIENT
SYSTEM, THAN NIH FOR THE GATEWAY
TO LET PEOPLE IN. WE WILL WORK
ON THAT A LITTLE BIT MORE NEXT
TIME TO FACILITATE FUTURE
MEETINGS. SO JUST A QUICK
OVERVIEW OF THE STRUCTURE OF NSF
SO YOU GET A FEEL FOR IT, IN
BLUE I HIGHLIGHTED THE DIRECTOR
WHICH FUNDED CONSCIOUSNESS
RESEARCH IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER
OVER THE YEAR YEARS. THAT INCLUS
BIOLOGICAL SCIENCE, SIZE,
COMPUTER INFORMATION SCIENCE AND
ENGINEERING. ENGINEERING ITSELF
MATHEMATICAL PHYSICAL SCIENCES
AND THE DIRECTOR SOCIAL
BEHAVIORAL ECONOMIC SCIENCES I'M
GOING TO DIVISION CALLED BCS
BEHAVIORAL AND COGNITIVE SCIENCE
AND NEW DIRECTOR FUNDED BY CHIPS
ACT, THIS IS THE TECHNOLOGY
INNOVATION AND PARTNERSHIPS. AND
NOTICE A LOT OF PEOPLE HERE IN
PRESENTATIONS HAD SAID SOMETHING
ABOUT HOW DISCLOSURE TO MAKE.
GUESS WHAT, TIPS IS RIGHT THERE
TO HELP YOU SUPPORT ANY WORK YOU
MIGHT WANT TO DO THAT IS
TRANSLATIONAL SO WE ARE NOT
DOING -- NSF DOES NOT SUPPORT
CLINICAL RESEARCH PER SE BUT IT
IS INTERESTED IN INNOVATION AND
INTERESTED IN WAYS IN WHICH YOU
MIGHT TAKE YOUR RESEARCH AND
TRANSLATE TO SOMETHING THAT
COULD BE USEFUL AT A CLINICAL
LEVEL OR DIAGNOSIS OR SORT OF
HELPING PEOPLE WHO ARE LOCKED
IN. THE SORTS OF QUESTIONS THAT
RELATE TO POSITIVE APPLICATIONS
THAT COULD BE TURNED INTO A
BUSINESS. THAT COULD BE USEFUL.
TO KEEP THAT IN MIND, AS WE GO
ALONG. OVER TWO -THIRDS OF FUNDED
BY NSF AT ONE TIME OR ANOTHER.
THAT IS ENCOURAGING YOU SHOULD
FEEL LIKE YOU ARE PART OF A TEAM
THAT WILL GET INTEREST FROM NSF
AND POSSIBLE SUPPORT IN FUNDING.
WILL IS NO ONE CONSCIOUSNESS
INSTITUTE AT NSF AT LEAST NOT
NOW. YOU HAVE TO APPLY THE
DIFFERENT PROGRAMS IN DIFFERENT
DIRECTORATES. THAT IS THE WAY IT
WORKS. YOU APPLY THROUGH
RESEARCH.GOV BUT BASICALLY YOU
HAVE TO TAILOR TO THE DIFFERENT
DIRECTORIES AND DIFFERENT
PROGRAMS. THERE IS A LOT OF TEXT
HERE BUT BASICALLY THERE IS A
LOT OF INTEREST IN A BROAD SET
OF AREAS FOR FUNDING. NOT SO
MUCH CLINICAL ORIENTATION BUT
ANIMAL HUMAN RESEARCH STUDIES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IDEALLY DOING
COMPARATIVE STUDIES USING
SIMILAR BEHAVIORAL BIOLOGICAL
PARADIGMS. WITHIN MICROGRAM
COGNITIVE NEUROSCIENCE WE CAN
FUND WORK THAT HAS PARALLELS
WITH NON-HUMAN PRIMATES, AND
ALSO WITH HUMANS.
WE ARE ALSO FUNDING NOW STUDIES
IN FERRETS AND HUMANS BUT THE
GOAL IS NOT JUST TO HAVE ANIMAL
MODEL BUT SHOW THE VALUE OF THAT
ANIMAL MODEL FOR HUMAN WORK. NSF
SUPPORTED STUDIES IN DEVELOPMENT
OF CONSCIOUSNESS AND
SELF-AWARENESS IN CHILDREN.
THERE IS A PROGRAM CALLED
DEVELOPMENTAL SCIENCES WITHIN
SBE. ROLE OF LANGUAGE, A
LINGUISTICS PROGRAM WE CO-FUNDED
WITH LINGUISTICS AND
DEVELOPMENTAL SCIENCES.
CONSTRUCTION CONSCIOUS NARRATIVE
DEFINES INDIVIDUAL IDENTIFIES,
SOCIAL CONSCIOUS SO A SOCIAL
PSYCHOLOGY PROGRAM ALSO FOCUS ON
QUESTIONS THAT HAVE TO DO WITH
SOCIAL AWARENESS AND
INTERACTION, FUNDING
HYPERSCANNING LOOKING AT LOOKING
AT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE
TWO PEOPLE IN SCANNER
INTERACTING WITH EACH OTHER.
THERE IS SOCIAL ANTHROPOLOGY
PROGRAM, CULTURAL ANTHROPOLOGY
PROGRAM WHERE THE CONTEXT IS
WHAT CULTURE YOU ARE FROM, HOW
DOES IT SHAPE CONSCIOUSNESS OR
PERCEPTION. AND WE HAVE SOME
STUDIES WHAT HAPPENS IN
MEDITATION DRUG INDUCED
PSYCHODELLIC STATES. I WILL
DISCUSS A COUPLE OF PROPOSALS
FOR MATHEMATICAL DESCRIPTIONS OF
CONSCIOUS UNCONSCIOUS BRAIN
STATES THAT WE HEARD ABOUT TODAY
AND OTHER CONSCIOUS STATES WE
HAWEHAVE. SO HERE IS A TEN OR SO
RECENT NSF AWARD TO SHOW YOU THE
VARIETY. HERE IS WHAT I'M
FUNCTIONAL NEUROLOGICAL DISORDER
WHERE SUBJECTS BELIEVE THEY HAVE
EPILEPSY OR PARKINSON AND THEY
DON'T. BUT THEY DISPLAY THEM.
THAT I BELIEVE FIRMLY THEY HAVE
THEM. SO TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT
IS HAPPENING ON NEUROLOGICAL
LEVEL AND FINDING OUT WHAT IS
THE ORIGIN OF THIS. A STUDY
CROSS CULTURAL STUDY OF AUDITORY
AND VISUAL PERCEPTUAL
DIFFERENCES GOING INTO BRAZIL
AND FINDING OUT DIFFERENT
CONCEPTS OF NUMBER OR VISUAL
PERCEPTION ULTRA PERCEPTION
EXPLICIT VERSUS IMPLICIT
LEARNING IN HUMANS AND IN
NON-HUMAN PRIMATES. COUPLE
RECENT SLEEP STUDIES LOOKING AT
MEMORY MODIFICATION AND
CONSOLIDATION, DURING WITH BRAIN
STIMULATION DURING SLEEP WE
FUNDED A COUPLE OF NEW PROPOSALS
ALONG THOSE LINES THIS SPRING.
REAL TIME DIALOGUE BETWEEN
EXPERIMENTERS AND DREAMERS
DURING RIM SLEEP AND LUCID
SLEEP. THEN NEURAL MECHANISMS OF
AGENCY IN MOTOR CONTROLS AND
SENSORY MOTOR AN LEARNING,
MECHANISTIC NEURAL THEORY OF
LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS DURING
ANESTHESIA, THIS BY THE WAY
MATHEMATICAL AND PHYSICAL
SCIENCES NOT SBE AND NEURAL
DYNAMICS THAT SUPPORT CONSCIOUS
AWARENESS STOCHASTIC FROM THE
ACTIVATEK SYSTEM. I WANT TO LET
PETER KNOW WE ARE SUPPORTING ONE
STUDY OF EEG FROM THE OCTOPUS
BRAIN, THIS IS PETER AT
DARTMOUTH. I LIKE TO FUNDS MORE
OCTOPUS STUDIES, THIS IS AN
EXCITING AREA AND THERE ARE
COUPLE OF RESEARCHERS DOING
PREYLY EXCITING WORK IN THIS
AREA, BOTH -- DOING EXCITING
WORK IN THIS AREA. SO THAT IS AN
AREA OF INTEREST. SO WHEN YOU
APPLY TO NSF YOU HAVE TO KEEP A
COUPLE OF THINGS IN MIND. HAS TO
BE GOOD PROPOSAL BUT HOW WHAT
WAY, A LITTLE DIFFERENT FROM
NSF, FORGIVE ME IF I'M WRONG BUT
TOO OFTEN WHEN WE GOT NIH
FUNDING WE HAVE A BOILERPLATE
JUSTIFICATION FOR WHY IT WAS
IMPORTANT FROM A CLINICAL
STANDPOINT FOR FUNDAMENTAL
RESEARCH. NSF IS MORE INTERESTED
IN REALLY SEEING BROADER IMPACT
OUTSIDE OF THE ACADEMIC WORLD
AND TRYING TO LOOK AT IMPACT ON
SOCIETY. SO MENTORING
ENCOURAGING DIVERSITY AND
SOCIETAL BENEFITS IS REALLY
CRITICAL AS WELL AS THE
INTELLECTUAL MERIT, THERE IS
ALSO A SCENE GOING ON HAS TO BE
CREATIVE ORIGINAL WELL THOUGHT
THROUGH, GOOD ACCESS TO
RESOURCES AND SO FORTH. SO ALL
THOSE THINGS ARE NECESSARY BUT
THE BROADER IMPACT ALSO PLAYS A
BIG ROLE, HAPPY TO TALK IF THAT
IS SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT FAILURE
WITH BECAUSE YOU APPLIED TO NIH
IN THE PAST. SHOUT OUT TO
SHERIFFE HERE, ONE THING WE
WANTED TO DO FOR THIS CONFERENCE
WAS ENHANCE DIVERSITY AND
INCLUSION AND SO SHERIFFE HAS
BEEN INSTRUMENTAL AND INCREDIBLY
GENEROUS AND TALENTED IN
SETTLING UP A PROGRAM FOR
HOWARDS UNIVERSITY STUDENTS THAT
WAS A PARALLEL COURSE TO THIS
MEETING AND WAS A MINI COURSE TO
TEACH THEM ABOUT CONSCIOUSNESS
AND NEURAL BIOLOGY OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. WE ARE HAVING
ANOTHER MEETING FRIDAY WITH
THEIR -- THEY HAVE TO MAKE
PROPOSALS FOR RESEARCH IF THEY
WANT TO DO TO MAKE GET FUNDED.
GOD KNOWS, BY NSF OR NIH ONE DAY
BUT THIS IS AN EXCITING
OPPORTUNITY AND THIS IS THE KIND
OF THING NSF WANTS TO PROMOTE.
SO TRANSFORMATIVE. WE DON'T
SUPPORT INCREMENTAL PROPOSALS.
INCREMENTAL, DAM GOOD PROPOSAL
BUT BASICALLY A LOGICAL RATIONAL
THOUGHTFUL PERHAPS EVEN REALLY
GOOD SET OF STUDIES THAT CARRY
ON BUT PURE PREDICTABLE, YOU
KNOW WHAT YOU GET AND FILL MANY
THE BLANKS. GREAT, THAT IS HOW
SCIENCE MOVES BUT AT LEAST IN MY
PROGRAM FOR SURE AND OTHER
PROGRAMS AS WELL WHAT YOU HAVE
TO DO IS GO FURTHER. IT HAS TO
BE SOMETHING THAT TAKES YOU AND
THE RESEARCH TO DIFFERENT LEVEL
SO HIGH RISK, HIGH REWARD AND
SOMETHING THAT IS REALLY GOING
TO TRANSFORM THE FIELD, NOT
SOMETHING THAT IS HOME GROWN SO
THINK BIG AND INTERDISCIPLINARY.
HERE ARE SOME THEMES THAT HAVE
BEEN DISCUSSED AT THE WORKSHOP
AND THAT I THINK YOU ALL HAVE A
SENSE OF BEING KEY TO ADVANCES
IN THE FIELD. WE WANT TO SUPPORT
CAUSAL STUDIES AS WELL AS
CORRELATIVE STUDIES ON THE
NEURAL BASIS OF CONSCIOUSNESS.
WE WANT TO SEE THEORETICAL
MODELS OF BRAIN STATES AND
CONSCIOUSNESS AND NEW
EXPERIMENTAL PARADIGMS FOR
TESTING THOSE. SO AGAIN THIS
SOMETHING THAT IS PARAMOUNT IN
DISCUSSION DURING THIS
CONFERENCE, IT IS REALLY
IMPORTANT THAT YOU COME UP WITH
A WAY OF TESTING IT, IT OCCURS
TO ME THE ADVERSARIAL TESTS ARE
HOTLY CONTESTED BY THE PEOPLE
WHO GOT THE RESULTS. I THINK
AGAIN, IT HAS BEEN AFFIANTS
EFFORT TEMPLE TON AND
INVESTIGATORS SHOULD BE
CONGRATULATED. THERE IS ROOM
FOR DESIGNING CLEVER EXPERIMENTS
THAT TEST WELL DEFINED MODELS
AND THAT IS REALLY IMPORTANT AND
REALLY IMPORTANT TO DEVELOP
COMPUTATIONAL MATHEMATICAL
APPROACH TO UNDERSTANDING BRAIN
STATES. THIS TIES IN P WITH THE
BBQS THAT YOU WANT TO DO
COMPARATIVE STUDIES THAT HAVE
HIGH RESOLUTION STUDIES AT
NEURAL AND BEHAVIORAL LEVEL WITH
TIPS OF DIRECTORATE, THE LARGEST
ADDITIONAL FUNDING OVER A
BILLION DOLLARS INTO THIS, PER
YEAR, SO THIS IS A LOT OF MONEY,
AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO
THINK ABOUT AI SEN SENSE, IF YOU
ARE ABLE TO LINK YOUR WORK THIS
IS AN OPPORTUNITY. ONE THING
ABOUT CRCNS PROGRAM MENTIONED BY
JIM, THAT PROGRAM HAS 50 TO $60
MILLION EACH YEAR. IT IS A LARGE
BUNCH OF MONEY AND YOU CAN GET
FUNDING FOR THAT IF YOU HAVE A
COMPUTATIONAL COMPONENT IN YOUR
WORK. YOU HAVE TO COLLABORATE
WITH SOMEONE DOING COMPUTATIONAL
STUFF AND IT IS FUNDED BY NIH
NSF AND ALSO DEPARTMENT OF
ENERGY. THAT GIVES YOU AN
OPPORTUNITY TO GET FUNDING
BEYOND NSF RESOURCES THOUGH NSF
DOES ORIGINAL PANEL REVIEW. IT
HAS ALSO HAS COLLABORATIVE
POSSIBILITIES IN SIX OR SEVEN
FOREIGN COUNTRIES SO IF YOU HAVE
SOMEONE WHO TO COLLABORATE WITH
LIKE STAN IN FRANCE OR OTHERS IN
GERMANY OR LIKE JAPAN SPAIN
GERMANY, THOSE NATIONAL SCIENCE
AGENCIES WILL FUNDS THE WORK OF
THOSE INVESTIGATORS IN ADDITION
TO WHAT WE FUND FROM THE US. SO
CONSIDER INTERNATIONAL WORK IS
AN OPPORTUNITY THERE. THAT
PRETTY MUCH IS ALL I WANT TO SAY
EXCEPT THAT THERE IS OF COURSE
COUNTER PARTS FOR NSF FOR
PRE-DOCTORAL AND POST-DOCTORAL
FUNDING AND IN FACT WILL IS NOW
A PROGRAM WHICH GIVES FUNDING
FOR HIGH SCHOOL STUDENTS IF YOU
HAVE AN NSF GRANT TO BRING THEM
INTO THE LAB AND GET THEM
INVOLVED. SO I'M GOING TO STOP
THERE, HAPPY TO ANSWER QUESTIONS
BUT FEEL FREE TO BE IN TOUCH
WITH ME, JUST
JAYFRITZSCHE@NSF. GOV, I'M AROUND
A LITTLE LONGER BEFORE I MIGRATE
TO ANOTHER AGENCY, FEEL PRETO
CONTACT ME SOON. THERE ARE OTHER
PEOPLE FOR EXAMPLE KEN WANG IS
THE PERSON WHO RUN IT IS CRC
NESS PROGRAM, A PERMANENT NSF
PROGRAM DIRECTOR AND HAS REALLY
SHAPED THE COMPUTATIONAL
COMMUNITY IN HELP GET IT GOING
AND REALLY GREAT WAY. BE IN
TOUCH WITH HIM IF INTERESTED IN
THE CRCNS PROGRAM.
>> I HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT THE
PROGRAM. YOU SAID HAVING -- IS
IT LIKE MORE COMPUTATIONAL
COMPONENT IS LIKE DOMINANT OR
EXPERIMENTAL? OR IT DOESN'T
MATTER?
>> FOR THE CR CMS PROGRAM?
>> COMPUTATIONAL APPLYING TO GET
DATA --
>> WHAT HAPPENS FROM THAT
PROGRAM IS BOTH COMPONENTS HAVE
TO BE IMPORTANT, HAS TO BE AN
IMPORTANT COLLABORATION THAT
BRINGS TOGETHER MODELERS AND
EXPERIMENTALISTS. THEY ARE BOTH
IMPORTANT. SO IN POINT OF FACT
IF YOU PUSH ME ON IT THE
COMPUTATIONAL SOMETIMES A LITTLE
BIT STRONGER THAN SOME OF THE
EXPERIMENTAL WORK. IF WILL IS
NOT A WAY OF TESTING THE
COMPUTATIONAL MODEL IT DOESN'T
GET FUNDED.
>> IS IT THE DRIVER SHOULD BE
MORE COMPUTATIONAL IN PERSON.
AND BRING --
>> IF YOU A COMPUTATIONAL
PERSON, YOU ARE TO A CERTAIN
EXTENT YOU FIND SOMEONE DOING --
FOR EXAMPLE IF YOU WERE TO WORK
WITH URI AND YOU TO HAVE SOMEONE
A PURE MATHEMATICIAN,
COMPUTATIONAL PERSON TO COME UP
WITH EXTENSION OF THALAMIC
CORTICAL MODEL OR BE ABLE TO DO
THAT YOURSELF? YOU HAVE TO
CLARIFY WHAT THE ROLES ARE FOR
DIFFERENT PEOPLE WHO ARE
INVOLVED IN THE PROPOSA PROPOSA
JUSTIFY WHY THIS IS A
SIGNIFICANT ADVANCE. THE
OPPORTUNITIES FOR FUNDING THERE
ARE GOOD THERE IS HIGHER
LIKELIHOOD OF FUNDING FOR PRAY
PROGRAM THAN OTHER PROGRAMS AT
NSF H. I WOULD URGE YOU GET MANY
TOUCH WITH KEN AND SUBMIT A
REALLY CLEAR ONE PAGER
SUMMARIZING WHO IS INVOLVED,
WHAT YOU ARE TRYING TO DO AND
ACCOMPLISH. ANY OTHER QUESTIONS?
OKAY. THANK YOU ALL. I WILL TURN
IT TO HAL.
>> NEXT SPEAKER IN THE SESSION
IS DR. HAL GREENWALD, PROGRAM
OFFICER AT OSR, FOR PEOPLE WHO
DON'T KNOW WHAT THIS ACRONYM
MEANS, IT IS THE AIR FORCE
OFFICE FOR SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH,
WHERE THE PROGRAM DIRECTOR FOR
COGNITIVE AND COMPUTATIONAL
NEUROSCIENCE, SO HAL AND I FIRST
MET IN OCTOBER OF 2019 AT NSF,
SUNDAY WORKSHOP ON COMPUTATIONAL
NEUROSCIENCE SAN ANTONIO, AT THE
TIME HE JUST ARRIVED AT AFOSR
HALF A YEAR AGO AND I -- WE
(INAUDIBLE) I HEARD HIM TALKING
ABOUT ALL THESE IDEAS BUILDING A
NEW PROGRAM AT OSR. AND I WILL
NOW SAY AMAZING INTERESTING
PROGRAM HE BUILT THERE. HAL.
>> THANK YOU. THANK YOU VERY
MUCH FOR THE KIND INTRODUCTION
AND INVITING ME TO ATTEND THIS
VERY INTERESTING MEETING. ALSO
TO PARTICIPATE WITH EVERYONE
ELSE ON THE PANEL. SO WHAT I'M
GOING TO TALK ABOUT IS PRIMARILY
MY PROGRAM BECAUSE I THINK THAT
WHEN I HAVE GONE AROUND AND
SPOKEN WITH PEOPLE, MOST ARE
AWARE THAT THIS EVEN EXISTS BUT
IT IS NOT ALL THAT SURPRISING
BECAUSE THE FIRST GRANTS WERE
AWARDED ABOUT FOUR YEARS AGO SO
A NEW PROGRA PROGRAM. SO TO STA,
LIKE NSF AND NIH AFOSR AS A
WHOLE FUNDS BAY SUCK RESEARCH.
I'M STARTING OFF HERE BECAUSE
THINK ABOUT THE DEPARTMENT OF
DEFENSE THEY THINK APPLICATIONS
AND APPLIED RESEARCH. CONGRESS
GIVES US MONEY FOR BASIC
RESEARCH. SO THAT IS WHAT WE
FUND. THE AIR FORCE DOES FUND
APPLIED RESEARCH WHICH IS AIMED
AT SOLVING PARTICULAR PROBLEMS
VERSUS JUST EXACTING SCIENTIFIC
UNDERSTANDING BUT THAT WORK IS
TYPICALLY DONE BY THE TECHNICAL
DIRECTOR AIR FORCE RESEARCH LAB
WITHIN THE AIR FORCE. SO
AIRFOSR HAS ALMOST 40 PORTFOLIOS
SPANNING DIFFERENCE AREAS OF
SCIENCE AND ENGINEERING. AND
YOU CAN SEE THOSE HERE. SO MINE
IS THE COMPUTATIONAL
NEUROSCIENCE PROGRAM HIGHLIGHTED
IN YELLOW. I HAVE ALSO FOR THE
PAST TWO YEARS BEEN MANAGING THE
COMPUTATIONAL COGNITION MACHINE
INTELLIGENCE PROGRAM, IF ANYONE
IS INTERESTED IN MANAGING AN AI
PROGRAM OR KNOWS SOMEONE WHO IS
INTERESTED IN MANAGING REALLY
GREAT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE
PROGRAM,PLEASE LET ME KNOW OR
TALK TO ME, WE HAVE A JOB THAT
IS POSTED THAT CLOSES ON FRIDAY
SO THERE IS TWO DAYS LEFT TO
APPLY. I HAVE BEEN DOING THAT
JOB IN IN A ADDITION TO THE
NEUROSCIENCE PROGRAM FOR THE
PAST TWO YEARS. IT HAS BEEN
REALLY INTERESTING AND I DON'T
WANT TO GIVE UP THE OTHER
PROGRAM BUT I'M MANAGING A LOT.
SO IT WILL BE -- LOOKING FORWARD
THE HAVING A GREAT COLLEAGUE TO
TAKE OVER THAT PART. SO THE
COGNITIVE AND COMPUTATIONAL
NEUROSCIENCE PROGRAM HAS TWO
PIECES. ONE PART IS BASIC
NEUROSCIENCE RESEARCH. FUNDING
EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES AND
COMPUTATIONAL MODELING STUDIES
EXPERIMENTAL THEORETICAL
APPROACHES TO UNDERSTANDING THE
MECHANISMS OF APPERCEPTION
COGNITION AND BEHAVIOR. THERE IS
WORK IN HUMANS NON-HUMAN
PRIMATES, RODENTS, CELL CULTURES
VARIOUS TYPES OF ANIMAL AND
HUMAN MODELS. AND WE ARE TRYING
TO ADVANCE OUR UNDERSTANDING OF
NEUROSCIENCE FOR THE BENEFIT OF
THE AIR FORCE SPACE FORCE AND
BROADER DOD. WITHIN THAT PART OF
THE PROGRAM ALSO I HAVE GOT
EMPHASIS ON NEURAL CODING
INFORMATION REPRESENTATION. HOW
DO NEURONS REPRESENT AND
COMMUNICATE INFORMATION? WHEN I
WAS DESIGNING THE PROGRAM THIS
IS REALLY ONE OF THE HARDEST
PARTS -- QUESTIONS IN
NEUROSCIENCE, REALLY THE HOLY
GRAIL, IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT IT
WILL ENABLE ALL SORTS OF THINGS
IN TERMS OF RESEARCH
CAPABILITIES AND ALSO
APPLICATIONS DOWN THE ROAD, I'M
DOING WHAT I CAN TO TRY TO PUSH
EVEN THOUGH IT IS VERY, VERY
TOUGH PROBLEM. THE OTHER PART OF
THE PROGRAM IS THE WORK AT THE
INTERSECTION OF NEUROSCIENCE AN
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE. THIS
INCLUDES BRAIN INSPIRED MACHINE
LEARNING, COMPUTING AND
BIOINSPIRED SENSING. ALL THIS
WORK IS GROUNDED IN NEUROBIOLOGY
AND NEUROSCIENCE MECHANISMS.
WHAT I AM HOPING WILL EMERGE,
STARTING TO SEE THIS, IS A
BENEFICIAL CYCLE WHERE
PREDICTION FROM ONE PART OF THE
PROGRAM CAN BE TESTED IN THE
OTHER PART OF THE PROGRAM. MOST
GRANTS FOLLOW ONE PART OR THE
OTHER THOUGH I HAVE HAD FEW THAT
SPAN BOTH. IN GENERAL WHICH ARE
LOOKING FOR HIGH RISK HIGH -- WE
ARE LOOK FOR HIGH RISK HIGH
IMPACT RESEARCH IDEAS LIKE
JONATHAN WAS MENTIONING BUT OUR
APPROACH IS A LITTLE BIT
DIFFERENT AND WE USE -- WE DON'T
USE PANELS THE WAY NSF AND NIH
DO, WE DO AD HOC PEER REVIEW SO
WE HAVE A PEER REVIEW PROCESS
BUT WILL SEND PROPOSALS OUTS TO
TWO TO THREE PEEP BILL EMAIL AND
GET INDEPENDENT EVALUATION. IT
HELPS BEING MORE RISK TOLERANT
THAN PANELS WHICH TEND TO BE
RISK AVERSE. THIS IS BENEFIT IN
TERMS OF SUPPORTING THE HIGH
RISK HIGH IMPACT RESEARCH WE
DEFINE. THAT HOLDS FOR THE
DIFFERENT PORTFOLIOS ACROSS THE
AGENCY. I HAD A SLIDE DISAPPEAR.
ANOTHER DIFFERENCE BETWEEN NSF
AND NIH IN OUR PROGRAM IS THAT
WE FUND WORK WORLDWI WORLDWIDE.E
WORK DOESN'T HAVE TO BE WITHIN
U.S. ONLY OUR CORE GRANTS ARE
OPEN TO ALMOST ANYONE WE ARE
LOOKING TO FUND THE BEST
RESEARCH IN THE WORLD WHERE IT
HAPPENS TO BE. SO TO SUPPORT
THAT, WE HAVE GOT INTERNATIONAL
OFFICES IN LONDON, TOKYO, CHILE
AND NEW OFFICES THAT JUST OPENED
IN BRAZIL AND MELBOURNE,
AUSTRALIA. SO THE INTERNATIONAL
PROGRAM OFFICERS AROUND THE
WORLD HAVE POTTS OF MONEY TO
FUND RESEARCH GRANTS BUT ALSO
WORK AS OUR EYES AND EARS AROUND
THE WORLD BECAUSE IT IS EASY TO
TOUR THE REGIONS. IT IS POSSIBLE
FOR INVESTIGATORS IN THE U.S. TO
BE CO-FUNDED WITH RESEARCHERS
AND OTHER COUNTRIES AND VICE
VERSA. GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF THE
TYPES OF THINGS THAT THE PROGRAM
IS FUNDING, I HAVE GOT A
SELECTION OF RECENT GRANTS HERE.
THIS IS NOT EVERYTHING, THERE'S
BEEN NEW THINGS ADDED SINCE I
MADE THIS LIST AS WELL. BUT YOU
WILL SEE THERE IS WORK FROM
BASIC RESEARCH ON THE RETINAL
MECHANISMS OF COLOR AND FORM
PERCEPTION, WHICH I'M EXCITED
ABOUT, EXCITED ABOUT EVERYTHING
HERE BUT I LIKE THAT PROGRAM,
THERE IS ALSO SOME WORK ON
MEMORY PARTICULARLY INTERESTING
WHETHER WHEN YOU FORGET
SOMETHING WHETHER THE MEMORY IS
LOST DELETED OR INACCESSIBLE OR
WHETHER IT IS GONE OR JUST
INACCESSIBLE AND IF INACCESSIBLE
WHETHER IT RESTORED. THE BOLD
AREAS GIVE YOU AN IDEA OF THE
TYPES OF THINGS WE HAVE BEEN
FUNDING,, THESE WEREN'T A PRY
OWERY CATEGORIES, WHEN I LOOK AT
GRANTS TOGETHER THESE ARE WHAT
FELL OUT. SO TO GET START WITH
AFOSR THE BEST WAY TO START IS
WITH A WHITE PAPER. THIS IS A
PRE-PROPOSAL THREE TO FIVE PAGES
PLUS REFERENCES, WHERE YOU LAY
OUT WHAT YOUR RESEARCH QUESTIONS
ARE, HYPOTHESES, WHAT YOUR
APPROACH IS, WHAT THE
ANTICIPATED BENEFITS ARE TO THE
DOD. AND APPROXIMATE COSTS. SO
WE DO MOST OF THE SELECTION ON
THE FRONT END WITH THE WHITE
PAPERS. YOU JUST SUBMIT THOSE BY
EMAIL. IF THOSE ARE -- THE CALL
-- YOU CAN SUBMIT A WHITE PAPER
AT ANY TIME. OUR BROAD AGENCY
ANNOUNCEMENT PROPOSALS ARE OPEN
YEAR ROUND BUT WE HAVE A FUNDING
CYCLE BUT THERE ARE TIMES WE
HAVE MONEY AVAILABLE AND TIMES
WE DON'T IF YOU ARE INVITED TO
SUBMIT A FULL PROPOSAL THROUGH
GRANTS.GOV WE GIVE YOU GUIDANCE
ABOUT WHEN TO APPLY. THE
PROPOSAL IS SIMILAR TO WHAT YOU
SEE FOR NSF OR NIH, FORMATTING
DIFFERENCES. WE DON'T HAVE A 12
PAGE LIMIT. STILL YOU DON'T NEED
TO WRITE A WHOLE BOOK. IF THAT
IS NOW OUT FOR PEER REVIEW AND
THEN IF SELECTED THEN GENERALLY
WITHIN SIX MONTHS AFTER YOU HAVE
SUBMITTED YOUR INITIAL PROPOSAL
THEN YOUR GRANT IS AWARDED AND
YOU CAN START. SOME OF YOU HAVE
HAD EXPERIENCE WORKING WITH
OTHER ASPECTS OTHER PARTS OF THE
DOD LIKE DARPA WITH OVER SIGHT.
WE TEND NOT TO BE DOWN YOUR NECK
AS MUCH. SO THERE IS A ANNUAL
REPORT WHICH IS DUE EVERY YEAR,
DESCRIBING WHAT IS DONE AND I
HOLD ANNUAL PROGRAM REVIEW WE
BRING INVESTIGATOR FUNDING
EVERYONE GETS TO HEAR WHAT
EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING, IT IS AN
OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN GET
FEEDBACK ON IDEAS, IT IS A MINI
CONFERENCE. PART OF THE GOAL
THERE IS TO BUILD A COMMUNITY
AROUND THE PROGRAM. AS FAR AS
CONSCIOUSNESS, MY LAST SLIDE, AS
FAR AS CONSCIOUSNESS I DON'T
CURRENTLY HAVE ANY GRANTS ON
CONSCIOUSNESS, THAT IS NOT
POSSIBLE, IT IS JUST THAT IT
HASN'T HAPPENED. SO I AM OPEN
TO IT BUT IT WILL BE IMPORTANT
TO RELATE THE GOALS OF THE
RESEARCH TO HOW THAT WILL
BENEFIT THE AIR FORCE BASE AND
DOD. ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES KEVIN
SCHMIDT HERE MONDAY AND TUESDAY
THIS WEEK FROM AIR FORCE
RESEARCH LAB, ASKING TO
PUBLICIZE A WEEKLY DISCUSSION
GROUP CALLED QUEST. THE QU
STANDS FOR QUALITY, THE REST IS
ACRONYM BUT THESE ARE WEEKLY
DISCUSSIONS, SOMETIMES
DISCUSSING PAPERS, INVITED
SPEAKERS COME IN, OTHER TIMES
DISCUSSING QUESTIONS RELATED TO
QUALITY UNCONSCIOUSNESS AND
THOSE ARE OPEN TO ANYBODY, THEY
ARE NEW ON FRIDAYS, AND IF YOU
LIKE TO BE ADDED TO THE LIST,
PLEASE JUST EMAIL ME. IF YOU
WANTED TO LEARN MORE, I WILL BE
AVAILABLE HERE YOU CAN REACH ME
AT NEU
NEUROSCIENCE .NEUROSCIENCE.AF.ML
THANK YOU.
>> NOTHING TO DO WITH MY OWN
POTENTIAL FUNDING BUT TALK ABOUT
DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AIR FORCE AN
SPATES FORCE AND I WAS JUST
THINKING DAYDREAMING I THINK
THAT IS A GOOD THING WE WERE
TALKING ABOUT THAT THE OTHER DAY
BUT WITH PROLONGED SPACE FLIGHT
IT MIGHT BE USEFUL TO BE IN A
KIND OF DOWN REGULATED BRAIN
STATE. ANYBODY LOOKING AT THAT
BECAUSE THAT MIGHT BE VERY MUCH
RELATED TO IN THE SENSE OF
INDUCE DISORDER OF CONSCIOUSNESS
SO THE ASTRONAUTS ARE
METABOLICALLY PRESERVED TO THE
TRIP TO MARS OR SOMETHING LIKE
THAT. IT'S SCIENCE FICTIONY BUT
THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING
ABOUT.
>> THE SHORT ANSWER, I DON'T
KNOW. BUT THERE IS WORK WITH
CERTAINLY WITHIN AIR FORCE
RESEARCH LAB WHICH IS NOW
SERVING THE SPACE FORCE AS WELL
AND NASA IS INVOLVED FOR A
LISTENING TIME THROUGH DIFFERENT
ASPECTS OF SPACE FLIGHT AND HAS
WORK ACROSS VARIOUS AREAS OF
NEUROSCIENCE FOR EXAMPLE. THERE
ARE ALSO QUESTIONS THE LONG TERM
WHAT THE SPACE FORCE IS GOING TO
BE, WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO
BUT WE ARE LOOKING AT THINGS
LIKE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU ARE
IN MOREAU MOTOR ENVIRONMENTS --
MORE REMOTE ENVIRONMENTS AND THE
AFFECT ON BODY, BRAIN, ET
CETERETCETERA. FOR AIR FORCE, E
FORCE, WHAT IS CALLED THE
DEPARTMENT OF TESTIMONY AIR
FORCE, INCLUDES AIR FORCE AND
SPACE FORCE. THERE IS WORKING
FUNDED THERE BUT WE ARE
DEFINEING WHAT THE FUTURE IS
GOING TO LOOK LIKE.
>> THE REASON I ASK IS BECAUSE
DURING COVID WE OBSERVED AND
PUBLISHED (INDISCERNIBLE) AND
OTHERS WE FOUND THAT PROLONG
HIGH -- EPISODES OF HYPOXEMIA
AND PROLONGED GABBANERGIC
EXPOSURE INDUCED A DISORDER OF
CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH (INAUDIBLE)
WROTE IN A PNAS ARTICLE THAT WAS
IT WAS ALMOST A DOWN REGULATION
HIBERNATION STING WHICH SEEMED
LIKE COULD HAVE IMPACT FOR
PRESERVING BRAIN FUNCTION. IN
OTHER WORDS PEOPLE LOOKED LIKE
THEY WERE HIGHLY DOWN REGULATED
BUT THEN THEY RECOVERED. BUT
THE ISSUE THAT WAS IMPORTANT WAS
THAT PEOPLE -- THEY LOOK LIKE
THEY WEREN'T GOING TO RECOVER
AND DECISIONS BUT IT WAS A
PRESERVING FUNCTION VERSUS A
DELETERIOUS FUNCTION AND
HYPOXEMIA AND GABBANERGIC IN
COMBINATION SO MAYBE IMPLICATION
FOR PROLONGED SPACE TRAVEL.
>> PROLONGED SPACE FLIGHT AND
ALSO FOR HEALTHCARE.
>> IMMEDIATE TO KNOW THAT YOU
NEED TO GET PEOPLE TIME DURING
LONG COVID -- DURING COVID IN
THE ICU TO RECOVER BECAUSE THEY
HAVE POTENTIALITY TO RECOVER
BREAKING THE OTHER RULES WE
TRADITIONALLY ASCRIBE TO PROLONG
STATES IN THE ICU.
>> BUT IN SPACE IN GENERAL YOU
HAVE GOT HYPOXIA, YOU HAVE
RADIATION EXPOSURE, LOW GRAVITY
ENVIRONMENT, THERE IS A LOT OF
THINGS THAT ARE PROBLEMATIC FOR
THE BODY THAT PEOPLE HAVE TO
DEAL WITH, ESPECIALLY -- THAT IS
A CHALLENGE FOR NASA IF THEY
WANT TO GO TO MARS.
>> I HAVE A QUESTION. DO YOU
AUTO SAMPLE PRE-AND
POST-DOCTORAL RESEARCHERS?
>> FOR GRADUATE STUDENTS WE HAVE
NATIONAL DEFENSE SCIENCE AND
ENGINEERING GRADUATE FELLOWSHIP.
WHICH IS IF YOU GO TO NDSEG.ORG
I THINK YOU CAN FINE IT F YOU
GOOGLE IT, THERE ARE GRADUATE
PROGRAMS, THE FELLOWSHIPS
AVAILABLE PAY FOR RESEARCH, PAY
FOR TRAVEL, SO THAT WOULD BE
AWARDED TO THE STUDENTS. OR FOR
THEIR UNIVERSITY. FOR POST DOCS
IN GENERAL RESEARCH GRANTS WILL
COVER GRADUATE STUDENTS AND
POST-DOCTORAL FELLOWS WORKING ON
THE GRANTS. BUT THE GRANTS ARE
GENERALLY AWARDED TO THE
INSTITUTION THROUGH THE FACULTY
MEMBER IN MOST CASES THE
UNIVERSITIES DON'T ALLOW POST
DOCS TO APPLY FOR GRANTS FOR
REGULAR RESEARCH GRANTS. I THINK
IT IS OFTEN LARGELY GOVERNED BY
THE UNIVERSITY POLICY. I HAVE
FUNDED GRANTS TO PEOPLE JUST
TRANSITIONING TO THE NEW FACULTY
POSITIONS. BUT THOSE ARE WHEN
GRANTS STARTED THEY WERE REGULAR
FACULTY.
>> OKAY.
>> THANK YOU.
>> THANKS IT IS MY PLEASURE TO
INTRODUCE OUR FOURTH SPEAKER OF
THE SESSION, DR. KEVIN MOSES,
SENIOR PROGRAM DIRECTOR AT THE
WN (INAUDIBLE) FOUNDATION.
BEFORE THAT HE PLAYED A
LEADERSHIP ROLE IN MANY PREMIER
PRIVATE FUND AID GYPSIES. HE
HELPED FUND THE GENE RESEARCH
FUND AT THE HOWARD HUGHES
MEDICAL INSTITUTE AND HE WAS
ALSO DIRECTOR OF SCIENCE AT THE
WELLCOME TRUST SCIENTIFIC
OFFICER AT THE CHAN ZUCKERBURG
INITIATIVE AN VICE PRESIDENT OF
SCIENTIFIC PROGRAMS AT THE
(INAUDIBLE) FOUNDATION. DR.
MOSES.
>> THANK YOU, THINK I CAN DO IT
FROM HERE. I DIDN'T PLAN GIVING
A FINAL TALK I DIDN'T BRING
SLIDES SO I WILL DO A QUICK RUN
DOWN ON THE FOUNDATION. FIRST I
WOULD LIKE TO THANK YOU AND ERIC
FOR INVITE MEG TO THIS
CONFERENCE. THIS IS A TOTAL
PLEASURE FASCINATING MIND
BENDING EYE OPENING WONDERFUL.
THANK YOU. VERY GOOD TO HEAR
FROM PEOPLE. WHICH LED ME TO --
I WILL SEEK PROPOSALS.S. I AM
FROM THE WM FOUNDATION LIVES IN
LOS ANGELES AND WE ARE AMBITION
IS TO BE FUNDING VERY BASIC AND
EARLY PROPOSALS AT THE HIGH RISK
ENDS LEADING TO GIGANTIC
DISCOVERIES. FIRST THING I DID
IS A REVIEW OF THE TEN YEARS OF
PROPOSALS UP TO 2020, TEN YEARS
OF GRANTS. T HINDSIGHT 2020. IT
HAS I WILL GIVE YOU THE TWO
EXAMPLES OF EXTREME
WONDERFULNESS. TO GIVE AN IDEA
OF THE SCOPE, THE RANGE AND THE
KINDS OF THINGS WE ARE LOOKING
FOR. ONE END EXTREME TO THE
NON-BIOLOGICAL -- THERE WAS A
GRANT TO TUNE UP WITH ADAPTIVE
OPTICS THE GIANT TELESCOPES ON
HAWAII THAT -- FUNDED TO LOOK
FOR THE BLACK HOLE AT THE CENTER
OF OUR GALAXY. THAT SUCCEEDED
AND THEY FOUND THE BLACK HOLE
AND THAT PI WAS (INAUDIBLE) UCLA
WHO GOT THE NOBEL PRIZE IN 2020.
THAT IS ONE EXTREME. GIANT
DISCOVERY. SHE HAD NO
PRELIMINARY DATA AT THE TIME --
WE LIKE RISK AND EARLY -- THE
OTHER EXTREME RELEVANT TO THIS
ROOM (INAUDIBLE) IN 2008 EARLY
WORK ON OPTOGENETICS. AGAIN YOU
CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THAT WAS
SUCCESSFUL GRANT. WE DID FEW
GRANTS, 15 TO 20 A YEAR BUT WE
ARE LOOKING FOR THOSE EARLY
HOPEFULLY SPECTACULAR, PEOPLE
WITH BIG IDEAS, DON'T NEED SO
MUCH FOR DATA, BRING THEM TO US
AND WE WILL GIVE IT A WHIRL. AT
THE EXTREME SIMPLICITY, THE
FRONT END OF THE APPLICATION, SO
ONE PAGE CONCEPT. NOT TOO MUCH
INVESTMENT IN WORK TO GET IT TO
US. ONLY GRANTS FROM PIs ONLY
SADLY U.S. UNIVERSITIES, THOUGH
WE PERMIT COLLABORATIONS WITH
OTHER INSTITUTIONS. THAT IS ALL
I REALLY HAVE. OUR ONLY EXAMPLE
OF FUNDING CONSCIOUSNESS WAS THE
GRANT WE MADE LAST YEAR. SO THAT
GIVES YOU SOME IDEA. THANK YOU.
WHERE
>> I JUST WAIT? OKAY.
>> OUR LAST PRESENTATION IS
RECORDED TALK BECAUSE OF
SCHEDULED CONFLICT BUT FROM VERY
SPECIAL GUESTS, FROM (INAUDIBLE)
MARSHALL TEMPLETON AWARD
FOUNDATION, AS YOU HEARD IN THIS
WORKSHOP LAUNCHED AD
CONSCIOUSNESS INITIATIVE FIVE
YEARS AGO THAT HELPED TO PROPEL
THE FIELD FORWARD. SO I THINK
THEY WILL BE TELLING US A BIT
ABOUT THE -- I THINK NOW LIKE
THE 20 TO $30 MILLION THEY PUT
IN TO CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH
OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS. AND
MANY OF YOU HAVE SEEN THE
INITIAL RESULTS AT ASSC AND TALK
ON THE FIRST DAY. SO THEY WILL
BE TELLING US ABOUT THE
CONSCIOUSNESS INITIATIVE. IF YOU
CAN GET TALK LOADED UP
>> HELLO MY NAME IS (INAUDIBLE)
HAIRSON, PRESIDENT OF THE
TEMPLETON CHARITY FOUNDATION.
THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO
OFFER MY REMARKS AT THE OUTSET
OF THIS NIH NSF NEXT FRONTIERS
IN CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH
WORKSHOP. THE QUESTION OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, ORIGIN, NATURE
SUBSTANCE AND STRUCTURE OF OUR
SUBJECTIVE AWARENESS IS HUNDREDS
OF YEARS OLE. AT THE OUTSET OF
THE 16TH CENTURY TO BE CONSCIOUS
IN ENGLISH LANGUAGE MEANT TO BE
AWARE OF A SECRET OR SOMETHING
PRIVAPRIVATE. SINCE THEN THIS TC
OCCUPIED HUMANITIES DEEPEST
THINKERS RANGING FROM RENEE
DECART, JOHN LOCK, MARCH SELL
PRUST AND FAVORITE STAR TREK
CREATOR GENE RODEN BURY OUR
FOUNDER SAID IT IS IMPORTANT TO
REALIZE THE MOST COMPLICATED
OBJECT WE ARE AWARE OF IN OUR
UNIVERSE IS THE HUMAN BRAIN. IT
IS AS YET MYSTERIOUS PROPERTY OF
INNER EMERGENT CONSCIOUSNESS,
COMBINED WITH INTELLIGENCE AN
EXTENTSIVE CAPACITY FOR MEMORY
MAKES US US. I BELIEVE THAT THE
NEXT SIX MONTHS WILL BE
REMEMBERED AS A CRITICAL TURNING
POINT IN THIS LONG INTELLECTUAL
JOURNEY. OVER THE NEXT SIX
MONTHS THE FIRST RESULTS FROM
TEMPLETON WORLD CHARITY
FOUNDATION GROUND BREAKING
ACCELERATING RESEARCH ON
CONSCIOUSNESS INITIATIVE WILL BE
PRESENTED. WE HOPE THIS MARKS A
SURGE OF NEW RESEARCH ON
CONSCIOUSNESS AND PERHAPS SIGNAL
A BROADER SHIFT HOW SCIENCE IS
DONE. TO BE SURE, THE SUBJECT OF
CONSCIOUSNESS IS NOTORIOUSLY
STICKY. THERE IS LITTLE
AGREEMENT WHAT ANATOMICAL
STRUCTURE AND PHYSIOLOGICAL
FUNCTIONS PRODUCE CONSCIOUSNESS.
SCHOLARS ACROSS DISCIPLINES CAN
LOOK AT THE SAME DATA AND DRAW
VERY DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS. IN
THE VERNACULAR WE CAN BE
CONSCIOUS OR UNCONSCIOUS
REFLECTING A PARTICULAR STATE OF
A PERSON. WE CAN BE CONSCIOUS OF
SOMETHING PERCEIVING OR BEING
AWARE OF IT. WE CAN BE
SELF-CONSCIENCE CONTEMPLATING
ONE'S OWN ACTIONS OR
PERCEPTIONS. WITHIN ITS MANY
USAGES AN VARIOUS SHADES OF
MEANING, THERE ARE DOZENS OF
THEORIES DEVELOPED AND PROPOSED
OVER DECADES. ALL THESE THEORIES
ARE METAPHYSICAL, THEY MAKE
ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE
FUNDAMENTALS OF REALITY, AND
SUBSET OF THESE THEORIES IS
EMPIRICALLY TESTABLE. IN OTHER
WORDS THEY MAKE PREDICTIONS
ABILITY CONSCIOUS PERCEPTION AND
BIOLOGICAL PROCESSES ASSOCIATED
WITH IT. SOME THEORIES CLAIM
CONSCIOUSNESS IS A PRODUCT OF
THE STRICT NEUROLOGICAL SIGNALS
AND INFORMATION PROCESSING THAT
HAPPENS IN SYNAPSES IN THE BRAIN
OR ELSEWHERE IN THE NERVOUS
SYSTEM. OTHERS CONSCIOUSNESS
SHAPED FUNDAMENTALLY BY THE BODY
AS A WHOLE WHILE STILL OTHERS
INVOKE MORE EXOTIC PROCESSES
LIKE QUANTUM MECHANICS. FOR
MANY DECADES THEORETICAL
EXPERIMENTAL STUDIES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS MAY HAVE BEEN A
SLEEPY NICHE OF THE ACADEMY, NEW
YORK RESIDENTS AND OTHER
DEVELOPMENTS HAVE CAUSED ITS
LEVEL OF IMPORTANCE TO RAPIDLY
GROW. ONE REASON PERHAPS FOR
THIS IS THE EXPLOSION OF
RESEARCH ON INTELLIGENCE BOTH
NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL. ONE HAND
WE LEARN ABOUT THE REMARKABLE
BRILLIANCE OF THE LIVING WORLD.
MEMORY AND LANCE ABOUT B
STATISTIC REASONING AND EMPATHY
AND OTHER PRIMATES,
SELF-AWARENESS IN BIRDS AND
FORMS OF COGNITION IN SIGNATURE
L CELLULAR ORGANISMS. AT THE
SAME TIME POWERFUL NEW
ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SYSTEMS,
FROM BEING RELEASED DAILY.
THESE HAVE REMARKABLE POWERS IN
PASSING. TOUGH STANDARDIZED
TESTS RANGING FROM SAT TO
MEDICAL LICENSING EXAMS, AND
THERE'S SOME EVIDENCE FOR THE
EMERGENCE OR DEVELOPMENT OF MORE
SOPHISTICATED SOCIAL COGNITIVE
SKILLS LIKE A THEORY OF MIND,
WHICH MAY DEMONSTRATE SOME SENSE
SYSTEM UNDERSTANDS PERSPECTIVE
OF OTHER AGENTS OR AT LEAST ACT
TO US LIKE IT DOES. THESE
DEMONSTRATIONS ARE NO DOUBT
ASTOUNDING BUT THEY SECURITY THE
FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE. INTELLIGENCE
IS NOT THE SAME THING AS
CONSCIOUSNESS. PROBLEM SOLVING
ABILITY IS NOT NECESSARILY
CORRELATED. WITH INTERIOR LIFE
OR SUBJECTABLE AWARENESS OR
INDIVIDUALITY THAT PERSISTS OVER
TIME. NONETHELESS AS THE NUMBER
OF DIVERSITY OF INTELLIGENT
AGENTS WE RECOGNIZE GROWS, WE
ARE FORCED TO ASK A NUMBER OF
BIG QUESTIONS, ARE MORAL
OBLIGATIONS TO CREATURE AND
CREATION ALIKE. WHICH SYSTEMS
FEEL PAIN, WHICH SUFFER HOW
SHOULD LEGAL AND POLITICAL
SYSTEMS RESPOND? IN 20818 THE
TEMPLETON CHARITY FOUNDATION
COMMITTED $30 MILLION TO HELP
MOVE THE FIELD OF CONSCIOUSNESS
FORWARD USING A NEW KIND OF
APPROACH CALLED STRUCTURED
ADVERSARIAL COLLABORATION. THIS
APPROACH WAS INSPIRED BY WORK OF
ECONOMISTS AND PSYCHOLOGISTS
AMONG OTHERS. IT SEEKS TO BREAK
THE TYPICAL ACADEMIC CYCLE WHERE
PROPONENTS OF COMPETING THEORIES
ENGAGE IN A ACADEMIC ARMS RACE
INDIVIDUALS MARSHALLING IN A
CONSECUTIVE SERIES OF ARGUMENTS
UNFOLDING OVER DECADES AND
INCOMPLETE EVIDENCE BEING
AMASSED FROM ONE SIDE OR THE
OTHER. SO TO AVOID THIS DEFAULT
MODE OF RESEARCH THE FOUNDATION
WORKED WITH COMPETING TEAMS OF
RESEARCHERS TO DESIGN A COMMON
SET OF EXPERIMENTS THAT
DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN DIFFERENT
THEORIES. RESULTS FROM THESE
COMMON SET OF EXPERIMENTS THESE
TESTS, SUPPORT ONE THEORY AND
DETRACT FROM ANOTHER. THOSE
CALLS ARE PUBLICLY PLEDGE SERRED
PRIOR TO COMMENCEMENT OF
STUDIES. EXPERIMENTS ARE
SIMULTANEOUSLY REPLICATED IN
DIFFERENT SITES THERE ARE FIVE
ADVERSARIAL COLLABORATIONS
CURRENTLY ACTIVE. THE FIRST ONE
GLOBAL NEURONAL WORK SPACE AND
INTEGRATED INFORMATION THEORY,
THE RESULTS WHICH WERE ANNOUNCED
DAYS AGO. NUMBER TWO,
COMPARISON OF FIRST ORDER AND
HIGHER ORDER THEORIES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS, NUMBER THREE,
TESTING GLOBAL NEURONAL WORK
SPACE AGAINST INTEGRATED
INFORMATION THEORY AND ANIMAL
MODELS. NUMBER FOUR INTEGRATED
INFORMATION THEORY ON PREDICTIVE
PROCESSING ACCOUNTS OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. AND NUMBER 5,
COMPARING DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF
HIGHER ORDER THEORIES OF
CONSCIOUSNESS. IN ADDITION TO
THESE STRUCTURED ADVERSARIAL
COLLABORATIONS WE FUNDED
COMMUNITY BUILDING SUPPORTIVE
EFFORTS, TO GRANTS TO THE CENTER
FOR OPEN SCIENCE FOR PROGRAM
USING REGISTER REPORTS. AND ALSO
CANADIAN INSTITUTES FOR ADVANCE
CFAR FOR A WINTER SCHOOL ON A
NEUROSCIENCE CONSCIOUSNESS. WE
DON'T EXPECT TO SOLVE ALL THE
MYSTERIES OF CONSCIOUSNESS
THROUGH THESE EFFORTS BUT WE DO
AIM TO FOSTER PROGRESS BY
REDUCING THE NUMBER OF VIABLE
THYRISTOR CAUSING THE THEORIES
TO CHANGE OVER TIME USING THIS
RIGOROUS SCIENTIFIC AND
CONCEPTUAL INVESTIGATION. THIS
MAY SOUND SIMPLE BUT I KNOW AND
I THINK YOU KNOW THIS KIND OF
APPROACH IS INCREDIBLY RARE IN
SCIENCE, HAD TO HAVE TESTS OF
COMPETING THEORIES OR SOMETIMES
TECHNICALLY IMPRACTICAL AND
SOCIALLY UNACCEPTABLE. THESE
STUDIES CAN TAKE OVER $5 MILLION
OR MORE TO CONDUCT AND OF COURSE
TOSS PARTICIPATE REQUIRES A HUGE
AMOUNT OF COURAGE. I WOULD LIKE
TO THANK ALL THOSE RESEARCHERS
WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE PROCESS
NO ONE GETS A TENURED FACULTY
POSITION BEING PROVEN WRONG, IT
TAKES COURAGE AND HUMILITY TO
ENGAGE. YET WE HOPE THROUGH THE
PROCESSES OF ADVERSARIAL
COLLABORATIONS WILL DRAW CLOSER
TO A TRUER UNDERSTANDING OF HOW
CONSCIOUSNESS REALLY WORKS. AND
WE HAVE GOOD REASON TO THINK
THAT SUCH BREAKTHROUGHS WILL BE
OF PROFOUND IMPORTANCE TO
HUMANITY. IN ADDITION, IF THE
ADVERSARIAL COLLABORATION
PROCESS IS SUCCESSFUL I THINK IT
CAN BE ADAPTED TO OTHER FIELDS
WITH SIMILARLY INTRACKABLE OR
LONG STAND PROBLEMS. FOR PAM
EXAMPLE IT COULD BE USED TO
APPROACH QUESTIONS ABOUT NATURE
IMPLICIT BIAS OR SOCIALLY
MOTIVATED REASONING AND ALSO
THIS IS SOMETHING I BELIEVE THAT
UNIQUE FUNDING MECHANISM
PHILANTHROPY AND OTHER LIKE
MINDED FUNDERS ARE UNIQUELY ABLE
TO TAKE ON. STRUCTURING THE
RESEARCH OPPORTUNITY TAKING
RISKS AN ENGAGING WITH LONG TERM
SUPPORT FOR THESE SORTS OF
STUDIES. IN THAT VAIN I WANT TO
EXTEND A SPECIAL NOTE OF
GRATITUDE TO JIM, JONATHAN AND
OTHER FUNDERS IN THE ROOM. WHO
FUND THE NEXT FRONTIER IN
CONSCIOUSNESS RESEARCH. WE HOPE
THE THEORETICAL ADVANCES, THOSE
ACHIEVED THROUGH ADVERSARIAL
COLLABORATION AND ALSO THE
AMAZING AND RAPID PROGRESS OF
AVAILABLE TOOLS, AND TECHNIQUES,
SUCH AS THOSE SUPPORTED BY THE
BRAIN INITIATIVE WILL FORM A
VIRTUAL CIRCLE INCREASING
DISCOVERY AND INCREASING
RESOURCES, APPLIED TO THIS AREA
OF RESEARCH. IN MY OFFICE,
CHANGES A MOTTO FROM MY TIME AS
WORKING AS AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE
RESEARCHER IN AFRICA, ADAPTED
FROM OLD PROVERB THAT SAYS IF
YOU WANT TO GO FAST, GO ALONE.
HOWEVER IF YOU WANT TO GO FARGO
TOGETHER. I WANT TO SAY YOU ARE
THE CORE OF THIS COMMUNITY AND
COUNT Y'ALL AS FELLOW COMPANIONS
IN THIS UNIQUELY IMPORTANT
ENDEAVOR. THANK YOU.
(OFF MIC)
>> SO THE UK OF INTEREST IN THE
MOMENT IN LOTTERY BASED MODELS
WHICH I THINK IS QUITE
INTERESTING. AS A WAY OF FUNDING
HIGH RISK RESEARCH. SOMETHING
SOMETIMES HAPPENS IS FUNDERS SAY
THEY WANT HIGH RISK HIGH GAIN
AND WHAT COMES OUT AT THE END
EVERYONE THEN JUST SAYS OH THAT
IS RISK AVERSE. BOTH KINDS MADE
IN THIS SESSION WITH THE LOTTERY
APPROACH, THINGS THAT MIGHT GET
OTHERWISE SCREENED OUT AS BEING
A LITTLE BIT RISKY GOING TO THE
LOTTERY AND SOMETIMES THEY GET
(INAUDIBLE) SO I THINK IT IS
REALLY -- IT IS NOT -- IT IS GOT
PROBLEMS AS WELL BUT I'M REALLY
INTERESTED SOME OF THE FUNDING
AGENCIES I'M APPLYING TO DOING
THIS SORT OF THIN THING. IER IFS
ON YOUR RADAR AND YOU ARE
INTERESTING IN TRYING.
>> IS YOUR QUESTION WHETHER OR
NOT WE ARE REALLY WILLING TO
TOLERATE CRAZY IDEAS? I THINK
THE KECK FOUNDATION DOESN'T
REQUIRE DATA THAT.
IS IMPRESSIVE THERE. THAT
SOMETHING THAT WITHIN MY PROGRAM
IS UNUSUAL, SOMETIMES WHAT WE
WILL DO FUND PEOPLE IF THEY HAVE
A LITTLE BIT OF PRELIMINARY DATA
BUT SOMEONE SAYS I WANT TO DO
RECORDINGS AT HIGH RESOLUTION AT
17 SAY YOU HAVEN'T DONE IT
BEFORE. YOU HAVE DONE 3T NOT 7T
SO NOT FUNDED IN THIS CYCLE AND
THEY GET PRELIMINARY DATA BEFORE
THEY APPL APPLY. YOU CAN SAY THS
RISK AVERSE BECAUSE THEY ARE
GOOD PEOPLE GOOD SCIENTISTS BUT
THERE'S TRICKS INVOLVED. T AND
THE PANELISTS WANTED TO SEE SOME
EVIDENCE THAT THEY REALLY HAD
THAT TECHNIQUE DOWN ABLE TO MAKE
USE OF IT IN A CONSTRUCTIVE WAY
SO ONE THING I'M INTRIGUED BY IS
A PROPOSAL WE ARE GOING TO
IMPLEMENT AT NSF WHICH IS THE
CRAZIEST PROPOSALS THAT DID NOT
GET FUNDED AND PUT THEM IN A
SPECIAL PANEL. IT IS ALL THE
REJECTS THAT ARE A LITTLE BIT
NUTTY BUT MAYBE POTENTIALLY
REALLY EXCITING. AND HAVE A
PANEL SAY LET'S TAKE A LOOK AT
THESE, FRESH LOOK AT THEM. SO IF
THE PROGRAM OFFICER DECIDES THE
PANEL -- PROGRAM OFFICER NSF
HAVE MORE DISCRETION AND DON'T
HAVE TO FOLLOW THE PANEL SORT OF
EVALUATION IN FULL. BUT IF THERE
IS A PROPOSAL THAT DID NOT GET
FUNDED BUT PEOPLE THINK THIS
MIGHT REALLY BE POTENTIALLY
EXCITING THE RIGHT REVIEWERS AND
THE RIGHT -- THAT GOES TO A
SPECIAL PANEL.
SPEAKER5: THE QUESTION ARE YOU
DONATE EXPLORING A LOTTERY BASED
SYSTEMS FOR INCREASING FUND
SOMETHING.
>> THAT SOMETHING THAT TEMPLETON
--
>> IF I COULD QUICKLY SPEAK ON
BEHALF OF THEM BECAUSE I'M
FUNDED BY THEM. THROUGH TWO
DIFFERENT GRANTS, ONE IS THE ARC
ADVERSARIAL COLLABORATION WHICH
IS ANOTHER LOTTERY VERY
DIFFERENT, IT IS A (INAUDIBLE)
BASE APPLICATION. I HAVE A
SMALLER GRANT THAT WAS FUNDED
THROUGH A LOTTERY BASED
MECHANISM AND IT IS NOT THAT
CRAZY REALLY I THINK THIS WAS
ONE (INAUDIBLE) WAS THE PROGRAM
OFFICER THERE, WHERE THEY HAD
THIS HOPE CALL FOR NEW IDEAS AND
SMALLER PROJECTS, AND WE APPLIED
AND I THINK THE EXECUTIVE
ALGORITHM HOW THEY DO THAT IS ON
THEIR WEBSITE, YOU CAN LOOK IT
UP BUT THAT WAS A LOTTERY STAGE
AND THEY WERE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT
THERE IS LIKE RANDOMNESS IN
REVIEW IN THE REVIEW OF THE
PROCESS. SO THAT WAS CLEAR IN
HIS WEBINAR TOOL ALL THE
APPLICANTS THAT THERE IS A
REMEDY PROCESS WHERE IF YOU DID
A GRANT DID NOT WIN THE LOTTERY
AND THERE IS SOME REASON FOR
THEM, IT IS HIGHLY WORTH FUNDING
THEY COULD RESCUE IT FROM THE
LABORATORY PROCESS. SO I CAN'T
SPEAK ANY MORE BUT IF YOU WANT
TO LEARN MORE ABOUT THAT
MECHANISM THERE IS A FUNDER WHO
TRIED IT AND YOU MIGHT WANT TO
REACH OUT TO ERIC MARSHALL AT
TEMPLETON TO GET --
>> AS A MODEL THERE IS A
HUMILITY TO IT, THERE IS A
CERTAIN RECOGNITION THAT
WHATEVER PANEL SETS OUT NO
MATTER HOW GOOD WILL BE DWIGHT A
POOR JUDGE OF QUANTITY
PROJECTEDS AND HUGE RESOURCES
POURED INTO THIS IMPERFECT
SYSTEM. RANDOMIZATION IS QUICK
AND CHEAP AND POSSIBLY KNOW
RISK. I'M INTRIGUED BY THE
EXPERIMENTS.
>> I WANT TO SAY RANDOMIZATION
IS -- HAS SOME LIMITATION SO THE
THING THAT I TRIED TO DO AT --
UNSUCCESSFULLY IS TO HAVE A
SECOND PANEL SECOND SET OF
PANEL, PANELISTS REVIEW THE SAME
SET OF PROPOSALS TO SEE HOW MUCH
CORRELATION. JIM DID ANALYSIS
AT ONE POINT AT NIH AND IT WAS
HIGH CORRELATION. MY SENSE IS
THAT YOU ARE RIGHT. WHO IS ON
THE REVIEW PANEL MAY GET
DIFFERENCE OUTCOMES SO IN THAT
SENSE IF YOU CHOOSE THE TOP TEN
PERCENT, 15 PERCENT THERE HAS TO
BE A LITTLE RANDOMNESS IN THERE
INTERESTING QUESTION HOW TO
SOLVE THAT PROBLEM. I THINK
DAVID'S IDEA SOUNDS APPEALING
BUT AGAIN SOMETIMES MISSES THE
POINT WHICH IS THAT THERE ARE
SOME PROPOSALS THAT ACTUALLY ARE
LIKELY TO BE MORE PROMISING THAN
OTHERS.
>> I WANT TO POINT OUT ALSO THAT
FOR WITHIN MY PORTFOLIO WE HAVE
NOT BEEN REQUIRING PRELIMINARY
DATA. I HAVE BEEN TELLING
APPLICANTS HAVING THE DATA WILL
STRENGTHEN YOUR PROPOSAL BUT
KNOW FROM SPEAKING WITH
RESEARCHERS THERE IS A FEELING
YOU HAVE TO DO THE RESEARCH
BEFORE YOU PROPOSE IT. AND THAT
IS NOT WHAT E WANT. WE WANT THE
NOVEL RESEARCH. ON THE
RANDOMNESS THING, I REMEMBER
APPLYING FOR COLLEGE AND PEOPLE
TALKED OF DOWN THE STAIRS AND
BASICALLY RANDOM PROCESS TO GET
IN. THIS IS REALLY EMBRACING
THAT. I AM NOT AWARE MY
ORGANIZATION HAS CONSIDERED
THAT, WE HAVE ALSO GOT VARIOUS
JUSTIFICATIONS THAT WE HAVE TO
WRITE FOR PROPOSALS SO JUST
HAVING RANDOM ASSIGNMENTS IS NOT
REALLY WHERE WE HAVE GONE. I
OFTEN DO THINK ABOUT EVALUATING
THE PERFORMANCE OF OUR
PORTFOLIOS AND HOW DO WE KNOW WE
ARE FUNDING THE BEST SCIENCE AND
HOW WELL WE ARE DOING CHOOSING
THIS VERSUS THAT AND THIS OTHER
THING WOULD BE BETTER. IT IS
VERY DIFFICULT BECAUSE YOU
BASICALLY HAVE TO RERUN THE
SIMULATION, YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE
MONTE CARLO AND WE DON'T HAVE
THE MEANS TO DO THAT. I DO SAVE
WHAT I DECLINE AND WHAT DOESN'T
REVIEW WELL AND OTHER TIME MOVE
BACK TO SEE HOW THE SCIENCE
PROGRESSED WHAT DO WE MISS AND
HOW WE LEARN FROM THAT.
>> HIGH RISK HIGH REWARD MEANS
PROGRAMS THAT YOU FUND, PROPOSAL
YOU FUND FAIL AND YOU HAVE TO
ACCEPT THAT IF YOU GO THAT
ROUTE. I WILL SAY MY FIRST RO1
FROM NIH REQUIRED MORE
PRELIMINARY DATA AND FUNDED IT
ONCE I GOT THE RESULTS, INITIAL
RESULTS PUBLISHED IN NATURE
NEUROSCIENCE SO IT WAS A --
THERE IS A SENSE THAT THIS
REQUEST FOR PRELIMINARY DATA
GOES TOO FAR.
>> I WANT TO TAKE ONE MORE
QUESTION AND WE WILL MOVE TO
NEXT SESSION. GO AHEAD, DR.
BANKS.
>> LET ME JUST ONE LITTLE PART
OF AN ANSWER TO THAT. A TRICK I
ENANTIQUOERED AT HOWARD HUGH
MEDICAL INSTITUTE, I DON'T WORK
ANY MORE IS THEY WOULD ALMOST
NEVER FUDGED PROPOSAL FUND
INVESTIGATOR FOR WHOM ALL
REVIEWERS THOUGHT IT WAS GREAT.
THEY WANTED AT LEAST ONE
REVIEWER TO DISAGREE. IT IS IF
IT WAS CONSENSUS WONDERFUL,
THERE WERE OTHER AGENCIES IN
TOWN THAT WILL (INAUDIBLE).
HOWARD HUGHES.