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I was just

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hoping you could give me some
examples

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of a social value, because
clinical value

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and scientific values are fairly
easy

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to understand and visualize
even.

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But I'm not sure exactly how to
interpret

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social value.

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Okay.

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So social value is well,
two ways to answer your

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question.

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One is that that's the rubric
under

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which we put all of it.

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So there's some of that.

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But I did say valuable or useful
clinically scientifically or

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socially.

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And so I think there, there
could be

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I have to think of an experiment
to study

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which had,

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I don't know, maybe,

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Cash transfers

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for certain vaccine
uptake or something like that.

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That's a it's health related.

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It's got social value as well as
perhaps

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individual value for the,

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the participants or the people
who if we prove that it works.

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That just comes to mind.

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But there are definitely other
examples.

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I'm just blanking on what that
might be.

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Yeah.

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I think one important thing is

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some people think about social
value

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as has to have clinical
relevance.

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And I think that's my own view
is that that's too narrow.

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Because if you think about, for
example,

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early phase
studies, early phase

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experiments,

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maybe
they'll have clinical value down

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the road.

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But what they at
the time have is scientific

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value.

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We're learning what this thing
does

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or how this thing has safe it
is.

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And then we can go on
and test it for clinical value.

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Great.

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Do you want to introduce
yourself?

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Yeah, sure.

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I'm Charlene I'm a pulls back
IrDA.

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And I just want to say
it was a great introduction.

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Doctor. Doctor.

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Thank you so much.

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And I actually had a similar
question

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about the justifications for
research.

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And while I do understand the
reasons

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why we want social value or
value

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in some sense for any form of
research,

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I guess I was wondering

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about arguments against it
and what type of arguments they

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look like.

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Is it just the inability to
measure value

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or is there something else?

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And is there any cases
I could think of where it's

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conception?

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The research may not have any
value

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or projected value,

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but then ended up being very
valuable

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down the line.

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Yeah. Great question.

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So where this idea came from is
a,

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scholar who wrote in the,

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in the 1980s, who named Benjamin
Friedman,

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and he wrote a paper
one time called Social Value

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and basically described in the
paper

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that he had what he called the
nightmare.

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I was walking down the hall
in his nightmare,

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and his friend came up to him
and said,

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I just successfully transplanted
an appendix.

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And in in the article,
Benjy says he scratched his head

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and said,

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is that ethical?

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And his friend said, well,
I got the guy's informed

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consent.

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But the the question was,

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what's the usefulness of
understanding

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a transplantation of an
appendix?

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Is there anything that we can
learn from

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that?

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Is there any reason that
transplanting

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an appendix would be a good
thing,

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or could be a good thing,

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or we would use it clinically
or scientifically or socially?

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What's the point?

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So that's an example.

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I think at the same time, you
might

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imagine that at a different
point in time.

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And I don't know that I don't I
can't

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come up with a scientific
explanation, but

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maybe there is a scientific
reason

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to transplant an appendix, for
example.

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And so if there is
and we could learn something

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really

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valuable that might help
understand

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or promote human health,

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then maybe then
it would become socially

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valuable.

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But the question to start with
is

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what's the reason?

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What's the
what's the so what of doing this

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study?

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What are we going to.

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Why are we doing it
and what are we going to learn

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from it?

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And so that's really the
motivation

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behind social value.

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There are examples of studies
that have been done

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that people say why did
why did anyone ever do that?

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We didn't.

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You know, what's
what's the usefulness of that

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question?

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And certainly there have been
studies that have come out,

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more positively valuable

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than were predicted at the time.

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Does that answer your question?

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Sort of.

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Go ahead. Hi.

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I'm Jonathan.

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So I was wondering if you could
talk

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a little bit

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about the methodologies that
were used,

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in, like, the Belmont Report?

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Or the Helsinki.

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What was it?

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The Helsinki Declaration of
Helsinki.

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So, like, I mean, was it was it
sort of an interdisciplinary

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background,

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people bringing different views?

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Did they just argue about these
things

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and try to solve them, or what?

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What did they do exactly?

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Yeah, that's a great question.

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Here's what I know,
which is probably not

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everything.

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So the Belmont Report was
written

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by the National Commission,

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and the National Commission was
one of

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the first commissions in the
United States

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that focused on ethics at all,
but certainly was focused on

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protection of human subjects.

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The staff

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wrote the Belmont Report with
documents,

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and you can find them
historical versions of them.

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Bottom line was a,

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ethicist, a physician ethicist
at Yale

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who did a lot of work in the
establishment

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of the ethics of clinical
research.

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He wrote,

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a background paper
that was given to the staff,

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and the staff included people
like

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Tom Beecham, who is a
philosopher

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at Georgetown
who was is famous for the four

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principles,

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the Georgetown mantra that in
bioethics,

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I'm hopefully I'm not saying
things

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that you guys don't know
what I'm talking about.

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But anyway, I think it was the
combination

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of background materials

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from people
that were asked to supply them,

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plus the expertise
of the people in the room,

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the staff, and then it had to be
approved

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by the commission.

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So there's that, that
sort of multidisciplinary effort

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there.

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And Helsinki is different in in
each

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of the domestic medical
association.

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So we have the American
Medical Association.

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They're associations like that
in many countries around the

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world.

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And so the World Medical
Association

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is the collaboration of all of
those.

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And so most of the people
who would be around the table

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deciding

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are physicians who run their
medical

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association in their country.

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But at least in the last several
iterations of the Declaration of

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Helsinki,

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00:06:37,530 --> 00:06:40,068
they had these consultancies,
like I was mentioning, they're

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having now

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where they bring in people.

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They invite people to come and
give them,

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you know, talks and information
and background materials

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about specific issues.

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And then they deliberate about
those.

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And a quick sidebar,

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the transcripts of everything
the National Commission

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did are in a room at Georgetown.

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I visited it many years ago.

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And you have to be monitored.

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And the faculty,
a member of the library staff,

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00:07:10,330 --> 00:07:12,565
had to sit there with me to make
sure

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00:07:12,565 --> 00:07:14,801
that I didn't run off with
anything.

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So if you're interested,
Jonathan,

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there is a plethora of paper to
review.

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00:07:20,473 --> 00:07:23,003
There's also a whole set if, for
those of

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00:07:23,003 --> 00:07:24,978
you interested, for each report

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00:07:24,978 --> 00:07:27,753
that the commission wrote,
including the Belmont Report,

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00:07:27,753 --> 00:07:28,348
there's one

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00:07:28,348 --> 00:07:31,584
on IRBs, there's one on, psycho
surgery.

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00:07:33,086 --> 00:07:34,654
There are bound copies

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00:07:34,654 --> 00:07:37,691
of the reports that then,

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00:07:37,691 --> 00:07:39,859
so the Belmont Report and then
these that

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00:07:39,859 --> 00:07:42,929
sort of led to additional,

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00:07:42,929 --> 00:07:45,665
there's one on kids
additional regulations.

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00:07:45,665 --> 00:07:46,700
They're on our shelf.

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00:07:46,700 --> 00:07:48,883
You have a lot of them in the
department?

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Yeah.

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00:07:49,202 --> 00:07:51,805
And if they're not there,
they're in the library.

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So thank you again, Christy.