WELCOME EVERYONE TO DAY TWO OF
BRAIN BEHAVIORAL QUANTIFICATION
AND SYNCHRONIZATION WORKSHOP.
FOR THOSE WHO PARTICIPATED AND
ATTENDED DAY ONE WE HOPE DAY ONE
CHALLENGED YOU TO THINK ABOUT
BEHAVIOR AS MORE THAN JUST THE
OUTPUT OF THE BRAIN OR SET OF
PHENOTYPES TO BE COMPARED BUT
THINK OF BRAIN BEHAVIOR AS A
COMPLEX SYSTEM WHERE ORGANISMS
INDIVIDUALLY AND COLLECTIVELY
RESPOND TO AND LEARN FROM AND
ACT ON THEIR ENVIRONMENT.
OUR CHARGE FOR TODAY OUR GOAL IS
TO TAKE THE NEW THINKING THAT WE
ACTUALLY HOPE WAS GENERATED
YESTERDAY AND TAKE THIS NEW
THINKING TO SEE HOW IT CAN
ADVANCE BEHAVIORAL AND NEURAL
SCIENCE.
SO TODAY WE'LL BE INTEGRATING
AND SYNTHESIZING AND THINKING
ABOUT THE QUESTIONS AS WE GO
ALONG.
HOW DO WE INTEGRATE THE WHOLE
ORGANISM AND ENVIRONMENT INTO
NEUROSCIENCE RESEARCH.
MORE SPECIFICALLY FOR HUMAN
NEUROSCIENCE STUDIES HOW DO WE
MODEL REGULATION WHILE PUTTING
THE HUMAN IN THE ENVIRONMENT AND
HOW DO WE INTEGRATE THE SCIENCE
AND PRACTICE OF ETHICS IN THE
NEW BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT.
WE'LL START OFF TODAY WITH THREE
TALKS BY MALAND NITA AND EACH
WILL BE FOLLOWED BY Q&A AND
MODERATE
MODERATED BREAK OUT ROOMS AND
WE'LL HAVE ONE ON ORGANISMAL
COMPARATIVE BREAKOUT AND FOCUSES
ON HOW TO THINK OF BEHAVIORS AN
NEW QUESTIONS AND THE TOOLS WE
NEED OR TOOLS WE HAVE TO
APPROACH THE NEWS QUESTIONS AND
THE CHALLENGES OF BARRIERS WE
NEED TO ADDRESS.
THE HUMAN CLINICAL BREAKOUT
SESSION WILL BE CO-LED BY
AYSEGUL AND THE COMPARISON
WESTBOUND HELD BY TALMO AND END
THE DAY WITH JOHN NGAI.
OUR FIRST SPEAKER, MALA MURTHY
TO GIVE HER TALK.
THANK YOU.
>> LET ME SHARE MY SCREEN.
CAN YOU SEE THAT OKAY?
>> YES.
>> GREAT.
I'M EXCITED ABOUT THE
DISCUSSIONS WE'RE HAVING AND
LOOK FORWARD TO MORE TODAY.
THE ORGANIZERS ASKED ME TO DO MY
PRESENTATION ON THE SPACE OF
QUANTIFICATION AND LINKING
NEURAL ACTIVITY TO BEHAVIOR AND
SO I HOPE THIS HELPS IN FRAMING
THE DISCUSSION LATER TODAY.
THERE'S A FEW POINTS AND I'LL
HIGHLIGHT THE IMPORTANCE OF
MODEL SYSTEMS FOR DEVELOPING AND
TESTING BEHAVIORAL
QUANTIFICATION TOOLS AND
DEVELOPING METHODS FOR
CONNECTING NEURAL ACTIVITY AND
BEHAVIOR.
SECOND, I'LL HIGHLIGHT THE
UTILITY OF STUDYING NATURAL
BEHAVIORS TO TAP INTO
COMPUTATIONAL PROBLEMS THAT
BRAINS HAVE EVOLVED TO SOLVE.
THIRD, I'M MOVES THE IMPORTANCE
OF FOCUSSING STUDIES AT THE
LEVEL OF NEURAL COMPUTATIONS
THEY'RE LIKELY TO BE CONSERVED
ACROSS DISPARATE SYSTEMS AND
FLIES IN HUMANS SOLVE SOME OF
THE SAME PROBLEMS IN ACCUOUSTIC
MECHANISMS AND IT PROVIDES A
ROAD MAP AS WE MOVE UP IN SYSTEM
COMPLEXITY.
FOURTH, I'LL DISCUSS THE
BEHAVIOR VARIABILITY RATHER THAN
NOISE IS AN IMPORTANT LENS
THROUGH WHICH TO VIEW THE
NERVOUS SYSTEM AND CAPTURING
VARIATION CAN BE USEFUL IN
FIGURING OUT WHY IT GENERATES
VARIABILITY AND BEHAVIORS
CONTINUOUSLY AND TRYING TO FIND
DISCREET BOUNDARIES WITH
BEHAVIORAL ELEMENTS MAY BE
CHALLENGING AND AMAY OR MAY NOT
BE HELPFUL.
THE PRIMARY FOCUS OF RESEARCH ON
MY LAB IS ON SOCIAL
COMMUNICATION AND THOUGH SOCIAL
INTERACTIONS OCCUR IN COMPLEX
REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENTS AS
DEPICTED HERE THE BEHAVIOR OF
EACH INDIVIDUAL IS RESPONSIVE TO
CUES FROM THE SOCIAL
INTERACTION.
THIS MEANS THE MOST RELEVANT
VINCE STIMULI CAN BE WELL
ESTIMATED USING TOOLS FOR
QUANTIFYING BEHAVIOR.
AND THIS IS HOW WE DISTILL THE
CHALLENGE OF BEHAVIOR IN COMPLEX
ENVIRONMENTS AND LEVERAGED THIS
TO MAKE HEADWAY ON THE NEURAL
MECHANISMS UNDERLYING SENSORY TO
MOTOR TRANSFORMATIONS DURING
COMMUNICATION AND DURING
COURTSHIP WHICH IS THE BEHAVIOR
MALE FLIES GENERATE SONGS VIA
WING VIBRATION AND THEY CARRY
SEXUAL AND SOCIAL AND DIRECTED
TO THE FEMALES AND FEMALES
ARBITRATING MATING DECISION.
IT CONSISTS OF TWO PRIMARY MODES
CALLED SIGN AND PULSE.
SIGN IS A HUM AND PULSE IS A
TRAIN OF IMPULSES.
I'LL PLAY A QUICK CLIP IF YOU
HAVEN'T HEARD IT BEFORE TO
APPRECIATE THE PATTERNING.
I'LL TAKE YOU QUICKLY THROUGH
EXPERIMENTS AND FOCUS ON THE
MALE SIDE OF THE BEHAVIOR.
TO QUANTIFY THE BEHAVIOR WE
DEVELOPED SOFTWARE TO QUANTIFY
THE FEATURES AND WITH
MICROPHONES WE RECORD SONG AS
THE MALE PERFORMS HIS NATURAL
CHASING BEHAVIOR.
I WANT TO MENTION THE METHODS
FOR SONG SEGMENTATION HAVE BEEN
EXTENDED BY A FORMER POST DOCK
IN MY LAB WHO NOW HAS HIS OWN
LAB IN GERMANY TO LEVERAGE DEEP
LEARNING TO IMPROVE NOT ONLY THE
SPEED AND ACCURACY OF SONG
SEGMENTITION AND TO MAKE THE
METHODS FLEXIBLE FOR SEGMENTING
SONGS FROM A NUMBER OF OTHER
SPECIES.
HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF 30 MONTHS
OF COURTSHIP AND MALES PRODUCE
LONG SONGS AROUND WE LOOKED AT
WHICH DETERMINES THE PULSE OR
SONG THE MALES PERFORMS AND AS
YOU CAN SEE FROM THE BOUT EACH
IS UNIQUE IN STRUCTURE AND
HIGHLY VARIABLE FROM ONE BOUT TO
THE NEXT.
WE CAN SIMPLIFY THE PARAMETERS
AND IT CONSTITUTE THE STIMULUS
HISTORIES.
THE THEY WERE PREDICTIONS WHICH
SONG THE MALE WAS SINGING.
AT THE START DOES THE SING THE
PULSE OR SIGN MODE?
WE FOUND EVERY TRANSITION WAS
INFLUENCED FROM INTERACTIONS
WHETHER TO SING, WHICH MODE TO
START IN, HOW LONG TO SING THAT
MODE, WHEN TO TRANSITION AND END
SONG.
THE TWO MOST PREDICTIVE FEATURES
WERE THE VELOCITY AND DISTANCE
TO THE FEMALE.
SO ONE IMPORTANT FEATURES OF
MODELS IS WE NOT ONLY EXPLAIN
THE VARIABILITY IN BEHAVIOR BUT
ALSO UNCOVER THE SPECIFIC TIME
SCALES OVER WHICH SENSORY
INFORMATION INFLUENCES BEHAVIOR.
FOR EXAMPLE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN
THE MALE AND FEMALE IS
PREDICTIVE OF SINGING THE SIGN
SONG AND DECISION TO SING
POSTSONG TO THE TIME OF THE
PULSE.
VARIABILITY HERE PROVED TO BE
THE CRITICAL TOOL FOR
DISCOVERING SONG IS PATTERNED BY
FEMALE FEEDBACK.
SO OUR BEHAVIORAL ANALYSES SHOWS
MALES NOT ONLY MODULATE SONG
PATTERN BUT INTENSITY SINGING
LOUDER AS THEY MOVE FURTHER FROM
THE FEMALE LIKE HUMANS DO IN
CONVERSATION AND SOME SONG BIRDS
AND IF WE ACTIVATE NEURONS TO
INDUCE THEM TO SING, THEY'LL
MODULATE THEIR SONG AMPLITUDE
WITH THE THE SIZE OF THE VISUAL
CUE MEANT TO MIMIC THE FEMALE.
AND WE FOUND INDIVIDUALS SONG
PULSES SHOWN HERE AS RED AND
ORANGE DOTS COULD BE CLUSTERED
ACCORDING TO PULSE SHAPE.
SO THE PULSE MODE OF SONG WAS
COMPOSED OF TWO DISTINCT TYPES
OF PULSE AND ORANGE ARE LOUDER
AND SLOW PULSES SHOWN IN RED
WHICH HAVE SOFTER.
MALES CAN SELECT WHICH TO SING
AND THE DISTANCE BETWEEN MALE
AND FEMALE IS MOST PREDICTIVE OF
SLOW VERSUS PAST PULSE.
MALES BIAS CLOSE TO FEMALES AN
INCREASE THE PROBABILITY OF FAST
PULSES MOVING FURTHER AWAY AND
WE KNOW IT RELIES ON DIFFERENT
ACTIVITY OF THE LEVEL OF MOTOR
CIRCUIT.
UNCOVERING THIS DISTINCTION
CHANGED OUR INTERPRETATION OF
HOW IT CONTROLS THE SONG
AMPLITUDE WITH DANCE.
PRIOR IT OUR BEHAVIORAL WORK WE
DID NOT KNOW SINGING WAS A
VISUAL BEHAVIOR.
THIS KNOWLEDGE LED US TO THE
VISUAL SYSTEM OF THE MALE WHERE
WE SINCE USED GENETIC TOOLS THAT
ALLOW US TO TARGET SPECIFIC
VISUAL PROJECTION NEURONS FROM
THE EYE TO THE CENTRAL BRAIN.
WE'VE UNCOVERED A RICH
POPULATION CODE.
EACH CELL TYPES AT THE INTERFACE
ENCODES MANY FEATURES OF FEMALE
MOTION AS SHOWN HERE AND EACH
DRIVES MANY ASPECTS OF THE MALES
COURTSHIP BEHAVIOR.
WHILE THE GENERALIZED MODEL
WORKED WE DEVELOPED A NEW
MODELLING FRAMEWORK TO DETERMINE
WHETHER THERE WERE HIDDEN
INTERNAL STATES IN THE MALE THAT
SHAPED HOW HE USED SENSORY
FEEDBACK TO PRODUCE SONG
PATTERNS.
USING THE GLM ALONE ON A MOMENT
TO MOMENT BASIS WE DO BETTER
THAN A CHANCE MODEL SHOWN HERE
AT PREDICTING SONG OVER TIME YOU
CAN SEE THE PROBABILITY OF SONG
TYPE RELATIVE TO THE ACTUAL
SONG.
INCLUDING THREE HIDDEN STATES IN
THE MODEL PRODUCES A MAJOR
PERFORMANCE AND IT CAN
ACCURATELY PREDICT ALL SONG AND
PULSE AND EXCELLENT AT
PREDICTING PRECISELY WHEN
TRANSITION FROM ONE SONG TO
ANOTHER OCCUR.
WE NAMED THE STATES IN THE MODEL
ACCORDING TO THE MALE'S AVERAGE
BEHAVIOR IN EACH STATE AND TWO
STATES OCCUR WHEN MALES ARE
SINGING CLOSE AND CHASING.
MALES SPEND LESS THAN A SECOND
IN EACH STATE AND CONTINUALLY
SWITCH BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN
STATES THROUGHOUT COURTSHIP SUCH
THE PROBABILITY OF BEING IN EACH
OF THESE THREE STATES IS EVEN
OVER TIME.
AND SO HERE'S A STRETCH OF
COURTSHIP SONG.
BELOW IT IS THE PREDICTION FROM
THE THREE STATE AND THE MODEL
DOES A GOOD JOB AT ACCURATELY
PREDICTING THE MALES SONG AND
ABOVE IS THE STATE THE MODEL
PREDICTS IT'S IN AND IT
FLUCTUATES EVEN DURING A SONG
BOUT.
TO SEE WHAT'S DIFFERENT HERE THE
MALES USES FORWARD VELOCITY AND
DISTANCE TO THE MALE WE PLOTTED
THE PROBABILITY OF SINGING PULSE
VERSUS SIGN SONG.
AS MALES MOVE FASTER OR FURTHER
FROM FEMALES THE LIKELIHOOD THE
SING PULSE GOES DOWN AND SWITCH
TO SIGN SONG.
THE SIMILAR OR IDENTICAL CUES
MALES PRODUCE DIFFERENT
BEHAVIORS IN THE TWO STATES.
UNDERSTANDING THERE WERE
INTERNAL STATES GOVERNING THE
BEHAVIOR LED TO US UNCOVERING
THE NEURAL MECHANISMS.
SO IN THE CHASING STATE WE NOW
KNOW THERE'S A DIRECT PATHWAY
FROM THE BRAIN TO THE NERVE CORD
OF THE FLY DRIVEN BY FEMALE
MOTION CUES THAT TENDS TO
GENERATE SINGLE PULSE ONLY SONG
BOUTS BUT WHEN MALES GET CLOSER
AND THEY'RE CONSTANTLY SWITCHING
BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE
STATES, STRONGER INPUT TO THE
SAME PATHWAY DRIVES A PARALLEL
ARM OF THE PATHWAY TO DISINHIBIT
DYNAMICS AND UNLOCK THE
POTENTIAL FOR COMPLEX SONG.
CONTEXT DEPENDENCE AND MOTOR PAT
EARNING IS COMMON TO VIRTUALLY
ALL SYSTEMS AND MODELLING LED TO
EXPERIMENTS THAT UNCOVERED A
NEURAL CIRCUIT MECHANISM FOR
CONTEXT DEPENDENT SONG
SEQUENCING.
SO WHAT I TOLD YOU SO FAR IS
BEHAVIORAL QUANTIFICATION WITH
COLLECTING LARGE DATA SETS AND
LEVERAGING COMPUTATIONAL MODELS
AND USING CIRCUIT TOOLS HAS
ALLOWED US TO PATTERN THE
SCULPT THE SONGS AND IT INCLUDES
HIGH YOU PUTS EVEN IN A SIMPLE
SYSTEM AND WE TRACKED THE POSES
OF FLIES AS THEY INTERACT
SOCIALLY AND YOU CAN SEE THAT
HERE IN THE VIDEO I WANT TO
HIGHLIGHT THE DEVELOPMENT OF
SLEEP.
AND A FORMER GRADUATE STUDENT IN
MY LAB WHO IS ALSO CO-ADVISED BY
JOSH SCHAVETS PIONEERED THIS AND
THIS IS A HARD PROBLEM TO SOLVE
BECAUSE ANIMALS OFTEN OVERLAP
DURING THESE INTERACTIONS AND
THEY'RE HARD TO DISTINGUISH
BECAUSE THEY'RE OFTEN
INTERACTING WITH SPECIFICS THAT
LOOK JUST LIKE THEM SO IT MAKES
IT HARD TO KEEP TRACK OF THEIR
IDENTITIES WITHOUT LABELLING
THEM WITH MARKERS.
HE USED CUSTOM DESIGNED FAST
MODEL ARE FAST TO TRAIN AND ONE
FEATURE IS THE FLEXIBILITY TO
RUN IN TOP-DOWN OR BOTTOM-UP
MODE HERE.
USING LESS THAN 100 FRAMES OF
DATA SLEEP CAN DRAW A BOX AROUND
ANIMALS AND PUT THEM TOGETHER TO
SKELETONS OR IN BOTTOM-UP MODE
FIRST FIND THE JOINTS OF THE
ANIMAL AND TRACK THEM AND THEN
TRACK SKELETONS.
THE SPEED AND ACCURACY VARIES BY
DATA SET.
SO TOP-DOWN IS ALWAYS FASTER BUT
YOU CAN SE THE ACCURACY DEPENDS
ON WHICH DATA SET WE APPLY IT TO
AND THIS HIGHLIGHTS THERE MAY
NOT BE A ONE SIZE FITS ALL
SOLUTIONS FOR THE METHODS.
ENGINEERING AND FLEXIBILITY WILL
BE KEY.
SLEEP ALSO IMPLEMENTS TWO
METHODS TO ADDRESS THE PROBLEM
OF TRACKING INDIVIDUALS OVER
TIME EVEN IF THEY APPEAR
VISUALLY SIMILAR AND FAST ENOUGH
FOR CLOSED LOOP AND HERE WE
DETECT THE MALE AND FEMALE FLY
WITH SLEEP AND WHEN THE MALE
ENTERS THE ZONE WE TRIGGER OPT
GENETIC BEHAVIOR AND THE SLEEP
TRACKING LATENCY IS LOW SO IT
COMES FROM THE HARDWARE AND
BIOLOGY ITSELF.
WE NOW HAVE ACCESS TO ADDITIONAL
ASPECTS OF THE MALE BEHAVIOR.
WE FOUND DYNAMICS AND THE
PATTERN OF STEPPING DURING
WALKING INCREASES IN VARIABILITY
WHEN MALES WALK AND SING AT THE
SAME TIME THIS RELATES TO
MULTI-TASKING AND WE HAVE BEEN
ABLE TO EXAMINE HOW MALES
CONTINUE TO SING FROM ONE WING
TO THE OTHER AND IT'S SEAMLESS
AN DON'T MISS A BEAT AND CAN
DIRECT BEHAVIORS WITHOUT
DISRUPTING PATTERNING AND WHAT
I'D LIKE TO END WITH IN THE LAST
MINUTE OF MY TALK ARE WHAT I
THINK ARE CHALLENGES AND
OPPORTUNITIES AHEAD.
IN TERMS OF METHODS, I WOULD
VERY MUCH LIKE TO SEE METHODS TO
BRIDGE ACROSS TEMPORAL AND
SPATIAL SCALES.
THERE'S WORK TO BE DONE IN
CAPTURING THREE-DIMENSIONAL
BEHAVIORS IN LARGE ENVIRONMENTS
AND I TOLD YOU ABOUT CONSTRAINED
ENVIRONMENTS AND 2-D TRACKING.
I'D ALSO LIKE TO SEE NEW METHODS
FOR AMERICA DIFFERENT MODALITIES
OF BEHAVIOR.
I TALKED ABOUT VIDEO AND AUDIO
AND THERE'S OLFACTORY WE SHOULD
INCORPORATE.
COPING WITH BEHAVIORAL VARIATION
STILL A CHALLENGE.
THERE'S A DESIRE TO LUMP THESE
IN CATEGORIES AND WALKING AND
GROOMING CAN BE USEFUL BUT I
HOPE I ILLUSTRATED HOW CAPTURING
VASION IS ALSO QUITE USEFUL.
WE NEED WORK ON COMPUTATIONAL
MODEL AND THEORIES LINKING LARGE
SCALE NEURAL ACTIVITY AND
BEHAVIOR.
YOU KNOW MY LAB HAS BEEN
DEVELOPING METHODS FOR BRAIN
WIDE FUNCTIONING IMAGING AND A
WHOLE BRAIN CONNECTOME FOR THE
FLY.
WE STILL RACK -- LACK METHODS
AND NEURAL DATA LIKELY COMES
FROM SMALLER NUMBERS OF ANIMALS
AND WIRING DIAGRAMS COME FROM
SMALLER NUMBERS STILL, USUALLY
ONE ANIMAL SO HOW DO WE BRIDGE
ACROSS THE DISPARATE DATA SETS?
FINALLY, OUR WORK HAS BENEFIT
FROM THE LARGE NUMBER OF LABS
MANY PARTICIPATING IN THE
WORKSHOP WORKING IN THE SPACE OF
BEHAVIORAL QUANTIFICATION.
I THINK THERE'S AN OPPORTUNITY
TO FORM MEANINGFUL
COLLABORATIONS BETWEEN GROUPS
BUT MAY ACROSS DIFFERENT
SYSTEMS, FOR EXAMPLE, PAIRING
PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO WORK
PRIMARILY ON FLIES BUT CLEARLY
BUILDING TOOLS THAT COULD BE
APPLIED TO MORE COMPLEX SYSTEMS
WITH FOLKS WORK IN HUMANS AND
WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS HAPPEN
THROUGH THE BRAIN INITIATIVE.
WITH THAT I'D LIKE TO
ACKNOWLEDGE MY LAB THEY'RE A
WONDERFUL GROUP OF PEOPLE AND A
THANKS TO THE BRAIN INITIATIVE
AND OUR COLLABORATIONS.
I TALKED ABOUT SOME OF THE
RESULTS FROM THE COLLABORATIONS
TODAY.
THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU, MALA.
WE HAVE A FEW MINUTES FOR
QUESTIONS.
FEEL FREE TO USE THE CHAT OR
RAISE YOUR HAND AND ATTENDEES
USE Q&A IN ZOOM FOR QUESTIONS
BUT STARTING WITH MALCOLM, GO
AHEAD.
>> I'M CURIOUS WHAT HAVE YOU
BEEN ABLE TO GLEAN WHAT THE
FACTORS ARE THAT MAKE SUCCESS
IMPORTANT PERFORMANCE IS THE
PULSING OR SIGN OUTPUT WHICH
MAKES FEMALES MORE RECEPTIVE.
WHAT ARE THEY JUDGING?
CAN YOU TELL?
>> THANKS FOR THE QUESTION.
HALF MY LAB WORKS ON THE MALE
SIDE OF SONG PAT EARNING --
PATTERNING AND THE OTHER HALF
WORKS ON THE FEMALE SIDE OF
PERCEPTION.
FEMALES ARE HIGHLY ATTUNED TO
SONG INFORMATION.
THEY INTEGRATE SONG OVER TIME
AND CARE BOTH MODES AND THE
FUTURE SONG THEY PREFER ARE THE
LENGTH OF THE BOUTS.
THE COMPLEX SONG BOUTS THAT HAVE
MIXES BETWEEN PULSE AND SIGN
SLOW THEM DOWN THE MOST AND ARE
MOST PREDICTIVE OF MATING
SUCCESS.
WE THINK OF SONG AS A LANGUAGE
FEMALES HAVE TO DECODE.
WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO DO IS
ESTIMATE WHETHER MALES ARE DOING
A DOING A GOOD JOB OF MATCHING
THEIR MOTOR SPEED AND IF A MALE
IS GOOD AT CHASING HER AND WILL
PRODUCE A SONG GOOD MATCH TO HER
MOVEMENTS AND SHE CAN HEAR THE
SONG AND CAN DECODE THAT SONG TO
UNDERSTAND THAT MATCH.
THAT'S OUR CURRENT THINKING
ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE
FEMALE BRAIN AND A DIDN'T GET TO
TALK ABOUT THE AUDITORY PATHWAY
AND NEURAL CIRCUITS.
>> OH, WOW.
>> ONE BIGGER POINT RELATED TO
BEHAVIOR IT'S USEFUL TO HAVE TE
DUAL PERSPECTIVE AND WE CAN DO
THESE IT EXPERIMENT INS FLIES
WITH RELATIVE EASE BUT FROM THE
MALE'S PERSPECTIVE, HE MAY BE --
HE WANTS THE FEMALE TO BE
RECEPTIVE BUT IT'S PROBABLY MORE
COSTLY TO THING PULSE SIGN SINCE
IT'S LOUDER.
WHAT THE MALE IS OPTIMIZING FOR
NOT ALWAYS CLEAR.
PART MAY BE FOR THE PARTNER BUT
ALSO WITHIN THE CONSTRAINTS OF
YOUR BRAIN AND ORDER.
>> IF YOU DISORDER FOOT FALLS
YOU DISORDER IT FROM THE FEMALE.
IT GETS DE SYNCHRONIZED FROM THE
FEMALES.
>> THAT SUPER INTERESTING.
THANKS.
>> DO WE HAVE OTHER QUESTIONS OR
COMMENTS?
>> I DON'T FLOW IF I CAN WALK
AND TALK AT THE SAME TIME.
LET'S MOVE ON TO NANTHIA'S TALK.
THANK YOU FOR THE WONDERFUL
TALK.
IF DAMAN WILL PUT UP NANTHIA'S
FIRST SLIDE.
I'LL INTRODUCE HER.
TAKE IT AWAY.
>> THANKS.
THANK YOU.
THIS HAS BEEN FASCINATING.
I ENJOYED THE TALKS YESTERDAY
AND SHIFTING TO HUMANS I'M
EXCITED ABOUT THE COLLABORATION
AND DOING SOME INTERESTING
STUDIES.
HOPEFULLY THIS WORKSHOP CAN HELP
FACILITATE SOME OF THOSE.
CAN YOU SEE THE SLIDES?
MY LABS STUDY FACIAL NAVIGATION
AND THESE BEHAVIORS ARE REAL
WORLD AND THIS HAPPENS IN THE
ENVIRONMENTS WHERE THEY'RE
COMPLEX AND IN THE LABORATORY
WHERE WE STUDY IS FAR FROM THAT.
MY HOPE IN THE FUTURE IS WE GET
TO DIFFERENT PARADIGM.
WE STUDY AREAS CRITICAL FOR
NAVIGATION AND FORMING MEMORIES
IN THE MEDIAL TEMPORAL LOBE AND
THE CORTEX THAT ARE AFFECTED IN
DISEASES SUCH AS ALZHEIMER'S
DISEASE AND OTHERS WITH SEVERE
EPISODIC MEMORY IMPAIRMENTS.
THE IMAGING OF THE MEDIAL
TEMPORAL LOBE CAN ONLY BE DONE
IN STATIONARY SUBJECTS BECAUSE
OF THE MOTION ARTIFACTS HARMFUL
TO THE IMAGE AND THE TECHNIQUES
SUFFER FROM MOTION ARTIFACTS
BECAUSE OF THE WIRES FROM LARGE
RECORDING EQUIPMENT NEARBY.
THE INDIVIDUALS IN THE HOSPITAL
BEING MONITORED FOR EPILEPSY
HAVE TO ALSO BE STATIONARY.
OTHER TECHNIQUES THAT ALLOW FOR
MOBILITY, AND OTHER COMING OUT
ARE PRESENTING EXCITING
OPPORTUNITIES TO RECORD FROM
DEEPER STRUCTURES WITH MORE
ADVANCED ANALYTICAL TOOLS BUT WE
STILL STRUGGLE IN THE TECHNIQUES
TO RECORD CLEAN SIGNALS
ESPECIALLY FROM DEEP BRAIN
AREAS.
BECAUSE OF THE HISTORY IN HUMAN
NEURAL IMAGING THE TASK OFTEN
SCREENED BASED OR VIEW BASED
TASK WHERE THE STIMULI ARE
PRESENTED AND NOT ECOLOGICALLY
VALID DUE TO REAL WORLD AND A
HALF GAIING -- NAVIGATION.
THERE WAS A FDA APPROVED IMAGE
AND THESE PATIENTS ARE
PERMANENTLY IMPLANTED WITH
ELECTRODES SO YOU WOULD BE THE
KNOW BY LOOKING AT THEM THEY CAN
RECORD INTRACRANIAL EG IN ONE
HIPPOCAMPUS AND YOU SEE ONE
CONTACT AND FOUR ELECTRODES.
HERE'S A PATIENT WHO VOLUNTEERED
FOR THE STUDIES.
BECAUSE IT'S FULLY IMPLANTED
WITH ON BODY TRACKING MOTION
DEVICES WE CAN ASK THEM TO DO VR
TASKS AND TRY TO TIE IT TOGETHER
THE NEURAL MECHANISMS UNDERLYING
MOVEMENT AND ALSO COGNITIVE
TASKS IN CONTROLLED VIRTUAL
ENVIRONMENTS.
WE HAVE WEARABLE SENSORS AND
TRACKI ININ INING DEVICES AND GAZE
SYSTEMS AND MOTION CAPTURES THAT
CAN LOOK AT FULL BODY POSITION
WITH ACCURACY, SPEED, HEAD
ORIENTATION, ETCETERA.
WE CAN ALSO LOOK AT
PHYSIOLOGICAL MEASUREMENTS AND
BLOOD PRESSURE AND ALL THE
THINGS WE HAVE THE ABILITY BUT
NOT NEEDED IN EACH STUDY SO IN
SOME CASE WE MAY JUST LOOK AT
POSITION, HEAD DIRECTION AND EYE
MOVEMENTS, FOR INSTANCE.
DEPENDING ON WHAT YOUR SPECIFIC
QUESTION IS, THIS CAPABILITY IS
THERE.
THE CHALLENGE HERE OF COURSE WAS
SYNC ROW -- SYNCHRONIZING THIS
WITH THE CLUNKY LOOKING BACKPACK
WITH A METAL FRAME TO HOLD UP
THE DEVICE THAT ENABLES REAL
TIME WIRELESS CONNECTION WITH
THE SYSTEM.
NEW ONES ARE COMING OUT EVERY
YEAR.
THESE CAN BE UPGRADED AND
INTEGRATED TO LOOK AT COMPLEX
BEHAVIORS WHILE RECORDING DEEP
BRAIN ACTIVITY.
HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF ONE PATIENT
BEING RECORDED AND WHILE THE
POSITION IS BEING TRACKED IN THE
ROOM SHOWN HERE AS WELL AS THEIR
EYE POSITION OR GAZE POSITION
AND PUPIL CHANGES.
THEY'RE DOING A TASK WALKING
AROUND LOOKING FOR CUES THEY
HAVE TO WALK TO ON THE OUTER
BOUNDARIES OF THE WALL BUT OF
COURSE WITH VR AND AR YOU CAN
START TO STIMULATE STIMULI IN
THE ENVIRONMENT.
ONE OF THE EARLIER STUDIES WE
DID WAS TO TRACK POSITION DURING
SLOW AND FAST MOVEMENT FEATS AND
RECORD MEDIAL TEMPORAL ACTIVITY
AND RATHER THAN CONTINUE
OSCILLATIONS AS IN A
FREE-ROAMING RODENT WE SAW THESE
OSCILLATIONS CAME AND GO IN
BOUTS AND THE BOUTS WERE MORE
PREVALENT DURING FAST COMPARED
TO SLOW MOVEMENT SPEEDS.
WE ALSO DID A STUDY WHERE WE HAD
SPATIAL MEMORY TASK AND
ALTERNATE BETWEEN WALKING TO
QUEUES ON THE WALL AND FOUND
THIS SIMILAR LOW-FREQUENCY
INCREASED WHEN THE INDIVIDUAL
WAS CLOSER TO THE ENVIRONMENTAL
WALLS.
INDEPENDENT WHETHER THEY WERE
MOVING OR NOT, WHAT DIRECTION
THEY WERE LOOKING IN OR OTHER
VARIABLES THAT WE TESTED.
WE ALSO LOOKED AT WHETHER THIS
ACTIVITY WAS PRESENT WHEN THE
PERSON WAS OBSERVING ANOTHER
PERSON WALKING AROUND AND WE
FOUND THAT SIMILARLY WHEN AN
INDIVIDUAL WAS NOT MOVING AND
JUST OBSERVING SOMEONE ELSE,
THEIR LOW FREQUENCY MEDIAL
TEMPORAL LOBE WAS ELEVATED WHEN
ANOTHER PERSON WAS WALKING OR
NEAR THE ENVIRONMENTAL WALLS.
SUGGESTING IN THE SYSTEM THERE'S
SPATIAL ENCODING MECHANISM NOT
JUST FOR ONE'S SELF BUT OTHER
PEOPLE'S LOCATIONS AND THIS IS A
VIDEO AS THE PARTICIPANT GETS
CLOSER TO THE WALL YOU HERE'S
THE RAW ACTIVITY AND THE
POSITION AND LOCATION IN THE
ROOM AND THEY'RE WATCHING
SOMEONE ELSE WALK AROUND AND
THEY'RE ASKED TO PRESS A BUTTON
ON THE KEY BOARD WHEN THE
EXPERIMENTER ACROSS AS A
LOCATION THEY PREVIOUSLY LEARNED
IN THIS CONDITION.
AS THE EXPERIMENTER WALKS CLOSER
TO THE WALL YOU SEE ONE EXAMPLE
TRIAL BUT CONSISTENTLY ACROSS
TRIALS AND ACROSS SUBJECTS WE
SAW THESE EFFECTS.
NEXT WE SAW THE DATA ACTIVITY IN
THE TEMPORAL LOBE WAS ALSO
MODULATE EYE MOVEMENT AND THE
PARTICIPANT WAS WEARING AN
EYE-TRACKING DEVICE AND WE SAW
ELEVATED BETA POWER AND THIS
EFFECT WAS ONLY PRESENT WHEN
THEY WERE ACTIVELY SEARCHING FOR
HIDDEN TARGET LOCATIONS WITH THE
SPATIAL MEMORY TASK RATHER THAN
THE CONDITION WHEN THEY WERE
WALKING TO THESE WALL CUES.
THIS OCCURRED DURING
SELF-NAVIGATION AND OBSERVATION
SUGGESTING THE SACCADE-RELATED
DATA THIS IS MODULATED BY AND
LOOKING AT THE TARGET SEARCH.
WHILE PARTICIPANTS ARE NAVIGATE
ROOM AND VIRTUAL OBJECTS ARE
PRESENTED THEY HAVE TO LEARN THE
OBJECTS, LOCATIONS AND LATER
RETRE
RETREAT -- RETRIEVE THEM FROM
MEMORY.
THE NEWER HEADSETS ARE NICE IN
RECORDING EYE MOVEMENT AND GAZE
POSITION AND PEOPLE CHANGES.
LOOKING AT BEHAVIOR OVER THE
COURSE OF THE PARTICIPANTS DOING
THE STUDIES WE CAN MEASURE, FOR
INSTANCE, THEIR ERROR OR
DISTANCE TO THE TARGET LOCATION
OVER TIME WHICH SEEMS TO ON
AVERAGE IMPROVE OVER REPEATED
BLOCKS AND LOOKING ACROSS THE
WHOLE TASK YOU CAN SEE NICE
SAMPLING OF POSITIONS ACROSS THE
ROOM AS WELL AS THESE TARGET
HAIL SCRO -- HALO POSITIONS
THEY HAVE TO LEARN.
WE FOUND ACTIVITY IN THE MEDIAL
TEMPORAL LOBE INCREASES PRIOR TO
THE RETRIEVAL OF THE TARGET
LOCATIONS AND THAT THIS AFFECT
ONLY OCCURS WHEN THEY CORRECTLY
REMEMBER THESE TARGET LOCATIONS
SO IF YOU PUT ESSENTIALLY AA
THRESHOLD AROUND THE HALO
CORRECT POSITION WHEN THEY GET
CLOSE TO THE CORRECT POSITION
YOU SEE THE ACTIVITY'S
INCREASING.
THIS NOT THE CASE FOR INCORRECT
RETRIEVAL POINTS.
NOTHING -- NO VISUAL TARGETS ARE
SEEN DURING THIS RETRIEVAL
CONDITION.
THE TWO CONDITIONS ARE LITERALLY
THE PARTICIPANT PRESSING A
BUTTON EVERY TIME THEY ARRIVE AT
A REMEMBER TARGET LOCATION AND
JUST FOR CONTROL, WE DON'T SEE
THIS AFFECT TO THE ACTUAL TARGET
LOCATIONS DURING THE TASK.
HERE'S YOUR EXAMPLE OF CHANNEL
TOP-DOWN VIEW OF THE ENVIRONMENT
WHERE YOU SEE HOT SPOTS OF THETA
POWER NEURO THE HAIL SCRO
POSITION AND AVERAGE ACROSS THE
GROUP OF PARTICIPANTS AROUND 8
HERTZ YOU SEE THE ELEVATED POWER
CHANGE DURING CORRECT RETRIEVAL
TARGET LOCATIONS COMPARE TO
INCORRECT AND TO GIVE YOU A
SNAPSHOT WE'VE SEEN THE
OSCILLATIONS IN THE HIPPOCAMPAL
SPEEDS CHANGE AND IT CHANGES IN
CLOSE POSITIONS TO WALLS
COMPARED TO INNER AREAS.
THE ACTIVITY PATTERNS ARE ALSO
MODULATE MEMORY RETRIEVAL AND
TASK GOAL INCLUDING EYE
MOVEMENTS FURTHER MODULATED
PERHAPS BY TASK GOAL AND THESE
PATTERNS CAN ALSO BE ELICITED BY
THE POSITION OF OTHER
INDIVIDUALS AND SO THE PRESENCE
OF OTHERS PRESENTS AN
INTERESTING OPPORTUNITY FOR
FUTURE STUDIES PERHAPS OF SOCIAL
ENCODING OF LOCATION AS WELL AS
SOCIAL INTERACTION.
WHAT I DIDN'T SHOW YOU IS WE
ALSO FOUND THESE PATTERNS ARE
MODULATE WALKING POSITION IN A
GRID LIKE PATTERN SIMILAR TO
GRID CELLS IN OUR FREE-MOVING
RODENTS.
A FEW MORE SLIDES IF I HAVE
TIME, CUT ME OFF, PLEASE, IF I'M
GOING OVER.
I'M SHOWING YOU WHAT WE'RE DOING
NOW.
WE'RE DOING SOME OF THE SPATIAL
NAVIGATION TASKS OUTDOORS IN THE
REAL WORLD USE ON BODY MOTION
TRACKING SENSORS AND VIDEO,
AUDIO AND GO PRO AND ALL KINDS
OF THINGS SYNCHRONIZED AND IF
ANY OF YOU KNOW SOUTH SIDE OF
UCLA CAMPUS IS VERY CONFUSING SO
WE'RE MEASURING THEIR NAVIGATION
PATTERNS OVER REPEATED WALKS AND
MEMORY FOR ROUTES WHICH ARE
CIRCUITOUS GOING INDOORS AND
OUTDOORS AND WE'RE USING
COMPUTER VISION TECHNIQUES TO
ISOLATE PARTICULAR EVENTS IN THE
COMPLEX EXPERIENCES SAUCHZ --
SUCH AS DOORS OPENING AND SPEED
AND POSITION.
WE'VE ALSO ENABLED THE RECORDING
OF THIS DEEP BRAIN ACTIVITY IN
TWO OR MORE INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE
NAVIGATING IN TASKS WHERE THEY
ALTERNATE BETWEEN OBSERVATION
AND NAVIGATION.
WHAT YOU CAN LOOK AT ARE
INTEGRATED SYNC RONY OF THE
INDIVIDUAL PATTERNS AND HOW
INDIVIDUALS ARE ENCODING
TRAJECTORIES AND LOCATIONS IN
THE PRESENCE OF OTHERS.
AND LASTLY I WANTED TO MENTION
WE'VE DEVELOPED A SYSTEM THAT
CAN ENABLE SINGLE NEURON RECORD
DURING WALKING BEHAVIOR.
THE DEVICES WE USED IF THE
PREVIOUS STUD CAN ONLY RECORD
INT
INTRACRANIAL EEG AND THROUGH
DARPA FUNDING AND COLLABORATING
WITH ENGINEERING WE HAVE A MINI
SYSTEM CARRIED ON BODY TO RECORD
NEURONS WITH PATIENTS WITH THE
ELECTRODES IMPLANTED FOR
EPILEPSY AND WALK AROUND THE
HOSPITAL AND HALLWAYS AND CAN
STIMULATE AS CAN A SYSTEM I
PRESENTED BEFORE WITH VARIABLE
LEVELS OF PARAMETERS THAT CAN BE
PROGRAMMED.
SO WE RECORDED IN A HANDFUL
SUBJECTS IN THE EMU WALKING
AROUND THEIR HOSPITAL ROOM SO
BACK AND FORTH WITHIN SMALL
SQUARE FEET OF SPACE AND
ISOLATED SINGLE UNIT WAVE FORM
AND HERE'S TWO UNITS AND
PATTERNS AS THEY WALK THROUGH.
DEVICE IS CURRENTLY SUBMITTED
FOR FUNDING TO TRY TO EXPAND AND
USE THE MINIATURIZED VERSION OF
THE DEVICE WHICH IS THE SIZE OF
A PILL AND COULD BE IMPLANTABLE
AND RECORD NOT ONLY SINGLE
NEURON LOCAL FIELD ACTIVITY FROM
HIGH DENSITY CHANNEL ACCOUNTS
AND ALSO STIMULATE WITH CLOSE
CAPABILITIES.
SO WITH COLLABORATIONS BEYOND MY
OWN LAB WE'RE WORKING WITH
OTHERS TO LOOK AT SLEEP, SOCIAL
INTERACTION, ANXIETY, FEAR,
EATING DISORDERS AND OTHERS AND
SO THERE'S A LOT OF OPPORTUNITY
HERE TO TRANSLATE THESE
TECHNIQUES TO ASK OTHER TYPES OF
QUESTIONS IN THE COGNITIVE
NEUROSCIENCE DOMAIN.
SO LAST SLIDE TO SUMMARIZE WE
CAN RECORD DEEP BRAIN ACTIVITY
DURING AMBULATORY BEHAVIOR AND
COMBINING THIS WITH WEARABLE
TECHNOLOGIES YOU CAN
CHARACTERIZE COMPLEX REAL WORLD
BEHAVIORS.
I DIDN'T MENTION ALL THE DEVICES
CAN STIMULATE AND SO WE ARE ALSO
LOOKING INTO USING STIMULATION
TO DEVELOP NEW THERAPIES FOR
PATIENTS, FOR INSTANCE, WITH
PTSD IN OUR CASE AND THERE ARE
OTHER LABS YOU HEARD FROM
YESTERDAY AND YOU HEARD GREAT
TALKS ABOUT THIS AND WE VAIN
OPPORTUNITY TO LOOK AT THE
EFFECTS OF THESE DURING COMPLEX
BEHAVIORS AND THERE'S ONGOING
OPPORTUNITIES IN THE SPACE.
THERE'S STILL A KNEAD TO
HOPEFULLY SPREAD THESE TOOLS
ACROSS A LARGER NUMBER OF LABS
AND NOW THAT WE HAVE TOOLS THAT
ARE A LITTLE BIT CLOSER TO
BRIDGING THE GAP BETWEEN ANIMAL
STUDIES I'M HOPEFUL WE CAN WORK
TOGETHER TO SEE THE
COMMONALITIES AND DIFFERENCES
ACROSS SPECIES AND TAKE
ADVANTAGE OF EACH SPECIES'
UNIQUE CAPABILITY TO DO CERTAIN
BEHAVIORS QUICKLY SUCH AS IN
HUMANS IN TERMS OF CERTAIN TASKS
EASIER FOR TRAINING PURPOSES.
YOU HEARD YESTERDAY SOME TALKS
WE ALSO HAVE CHALLENGES IN TERMS
OF DOING AT-HOME BEHAVIORAL
CHARACTERIZATION AND ALL THE
STUDIES ARE IN THE LAB WITH
COMPLEX WEARABLE SUBJECTS NOT
USER FRIENDLY BY THE PATIENTS OR
PARTICIPANTS SO BEING ABLE TO
HAVE THOSE TYPES OF DEVICES AT
HOME WILL BE A GAME CHANGER IN
THE SPACE.
WEN -- WHEN WORKING WITH
PATIENTS WITH DISEASE STATES WE
WANT TO ASSESS THE DISEASE
STATES AND WITH PTSD WE'D LIKE
BETTER WAYS BEYOND SELF-REPORT
TO ASSESS DISEASE STATES AND
LAST BUT NOT LEAST THE DATA
WE'RE GETTING IN THE REAL WORLD
OUTDOOR STUDY IS ENORMOUS.
PARSING THAT DATA USING DEEP
LEARNING COMPUTER VISION METHODS
IS SOMETHING WE'RE INTERESTED IN
AND HOPEFULLY OTHERS WILL ALSO.
THESE THE LAB MEMBERS DOING ALL
THE WORK AND LOTS OF
COLLABORATORS AND CLINICIANS AND
INDUSTRY COLLABORATORS AND
FUNDING THAT MAKE IT ALL HAPPEN.
THANK YOU ALL FOR LISTENING AND
FOR HAVING ME AND LOOKING
FORWARD TO DISCUSSING ALL THIS
FURTHER.
>> WE HAVE TIME FOR A COUPLE
QUESTIONS AND I'LL GIVE SOME
THAT APPEARED IN THE QUESTION
ANSWER FIELD.
ONE QUESTION IS, BESIDES SEEING
ASSOCIATION BETWEEN VISUAL
ACTIVITY AND DATA SACCADES DO
YOU SEE SKIN CONDUCTANTS AND
OTHER PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANNELS?
>> YEAH, THAT'S SOMETHING WE'RE
LOOK AT IN THE CONTEXT OF THESE
STUDIES AND PTSD PATIENT AND
THOSE WITH ANXIETY DISORDER.
WOE DIDN'T COLLECT THE DATA
BECAUSE IT WASN'T PART OF THE
QUESTION WE WERE ASKING EARLIER
BUT IN THE OTHER STUDIES IN PTSD
PATIENTS AND EPILEPSY PATIENTS
WHO DON'T HAVE PTSD WE STARTED
TO COLLECT SOME OF THAT DATA AND
WE DON'T REALLY HAVE ANSWERS
QUITE YET BUT PERHAPS MAYBE SOME
PRELIMINARY EVIDENCE IN TERMS OF
INCREASED SKIN CONDUCTANTS
DURING TRAUMA REMINDERS THAT
CORRESPOND TO THE AMYGDALA AND
THAT IS PROMISING.
>> CAN YOU COMMENT ON THE
SIMILARITIES OF YOUR FINDINGS
WITH ACTIVE MOTION WITH THE
FINDINGS FROM VIRTUAL MOTION.
USING EEG OR FMRI.
IS THERE GOOD CONVERGENCE IN
USING THESE METHODS.
>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION I
CANNOT ANSWER.
WE CREATED A VIRTUAL VERSION OF
THE REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENT AS
YOU LOOK AT THAT WE HAVE
INDIVIDUALS ALTERNATE BETWEEN
REAL WORLD AND VIRTUAL
ENVIRONMENTS.
THERE'S SOME IS STUDIES EN
ANIMALS THAT SUBJECT PERHAPS OUR
DIFFERENCE IS LESS SPATIAL
ENCODING IN THESE AREAS BUT IT'S
NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE DATA YET
ON BUT IT'S DEFINITELY AN
IMPORTANT QUESTION, HOW MUCH --
WHAT ARE THE DIFFERENCES BETWEEN
THE VIRTUAL ENVIRONMENTS AND
REAL WORLD ENVIRONMENTS IN TERMS
OF THE BRAIN PATTERNS IS
SOMETHING WE'D LIKE TO LOOK
INTO.
>> AND ONE MORE, MALCOLM, YOU
HAVE YOUR HAND UP?
>> THANKS.
GREAT REALLY INTERESTING.
I'M SUPER INTERESTED BY THE
TARGET SACCADE STUFF AND CURIOUS
WHETHER YOU THINK THIS CAN START
TO ADDRESS THE IDEA THAT
SACCADES CAN BE A FORM OF
PRIMATE PTE.
YOU'RE DOING SPATIAL MEMORY
RECALL.
ARE THERE ANY TASKS YOU'RE DOING
WHERE THERE'S A PLANNING
COMPONENT OR DIFFICULT CHOICE OR
STRUCTURE WITHIN THE SACCADE
PRECEDE WALKING TOWARDS THE
RETRIEVE LOCATION?
CAN YOU SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THAT
BECAUSE THAT'S SUPER
INTERESTING.
>> OH, NO BUT THAT'S SUPER
INTERESTING A NEW POST-DOC
INTERESTED IN DECISION MAKING
AND WILL BE A POTENTIAL QUESTION
WE CAN LOOK AT BUT IN PREVIOUS
DATA WE HAVEN'T LOOKED AT THAT
OR HAD THE PROPER TASK TO BE
ABLE TO ANSWER SOME OF THOSE
QUESTIONS BUT VERY INTERESTING.
THANK YOU.
>> THAT'S WHY WE'RE HERE TO
IDENTIFY QUESTIONS SUPER
INTERESTING BUT NOT DOING YET.
WE'LL MOVE ON TO THE NEXT TALK
BY NITA FARAHANY FRAMING THE
ETHICAL CONTEXT OF BRAIN
BEHAVIORAL QUANTIFICATION.
>> THANKS, EVERYBODY.
THANKS FOR HAVING ME HERE TODAY
AND FOR ALSO MAKING ETHICS A
FOCAL POINT OF THE CONVERSATION.
LET ME APOLOGIZE IN ADVANCE I AM
RECOVERING FROM COVID SO MY
VOICE MAY GIVE OUT WHEN I
THOUGHT I MISSED THE WAVE OF THE
CURRENT ITERATION I CAME DOWN
WITH IT.
I HOPE YOU CAN HEAR ME WELL AND
SEE MY SLIDES WELL AND EXCITED
TO HAVE THIS CONVERSATION WITH
YOU TODAY.
WHAT I WANT DO IS TALK ABOUT HOW
WE MIGHT FRAME THE ETHICAL
ISSUES RATHER THAN NECESSARILY
ADDRESS ALL THE ETHICAL ISSUES
OF THIS EXCITING BUT POTENTIALLY
RISKY AREA OF RESEARCH IS
OPENING UP.
IT'S NOT THAT DIFFERENT THAN HOW
WE MIGHT FRAME ANY ETHICAL
ISSUE.
SO I WANTED TO WALK US THROUGH
THAT TO THINK BIT AND GIVE
CONTEXT TO THE -- ABOUT IT AND
GIVE CONTEXT TO THE PLACES WE
MAY FOLLOW.
A STARTING PLACE FOR ANY ETHICAL
ISSUE IS TO THINK ABOUT AN
EMERGING PRACTICE OR USE OF NEW
TECHNOLOGIES TO LOCATE TO THE
EXTENT POSSIBLE THE SPECIFIC
ETHICAL ISSUES THAT ARE AT HAND.
AND SOMETIMES WHAT APPEARS TO BE
AN ETHICAL DISPUTE IS OFTEN A
DISPUTE ABOUT FACTS OR CONCEPTS
WHICH IS SO IMPORTANT TO
ESTABLISH WHAT IT IS WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT.
SO THE MOST PREVALENT CONSTRUCT
IN PUBLIC HEALTH OR BIOLOGICAL
RESEARCH IS SOME UTILITARIANS
SAY IT'S BRAIN QUANTIFICATION OR
DEEP PHENOTYPING IS ESSENTIAL
BECAUSE INFORMATION HEALTH AND
DISEASE CREATE SIGNIFICANT
INACCURACIES IN POORLY DESCRIBED
PHENOTYPES.
SO THIS KIND OF APPROACH THE
DEEP PHENOTYPING APPROACH WILL
CREATE THE GREATEST GOOD FOR
MENTAL HEALTH WITH THE LEAST A
HARM AND OTHERS CLAIM NEW AND
POTENTIALLY MORE INVASIVE
MODALITIES ARE ALREADY ADEQUATE
SO THE MORE INVASIVE WAYS WON'T
IMPROVE OUTCOMES AND WILL
PRODUCE MORE HARM THAN GOOD.
THE ARGUMENT BETWEEN THE TWO
PERSPECTIVES IS AN ARGUMENT OVER
FACTS THAN A MORAL FRAMEWORK OR
ETHICAL ISSUE AT HAND AND THE
AGREEMENT IS WE OUGHT TO PRODUCE
THE BEST OUTCOMES FOR ADDRESSING
MENTAL HEALTH AN DISEASE.
WE NEED TO START BY WHAT ARE THE
ETHICAL ISSUES AND IN THIS
CONTEXT WHAT'S THE RELEVANT
INFORMATION?
IS THERE AN ETHICAL MANDATE TO
PROCEED WITH BEHAVIOR
QUANTIFICATION?
I WOULD ARGUE THERE IS.
MENTAL DISORDERS REMAIN AMONG
THE TOP 10 LEADING CAUSES OF
BURDEN WORLDWIDE WITH NO
EVIDENCE OF GLOBAL REDUCTION IN
THE BURDEN.
IT'S ONLY INCREASING AND
PARTICULARLY WITHIN THE PAST
COUPLE YEARS WE CAN SEE A MARKED
INCREASE IN IT.
AND THE MERE EXISTENCE OF THE
PROBLEM DOESN'T CREATE THE
MANDATE BUT THERE'S ALSO
INHERENT LIMITATIONS TO DATE IN
OUR ABILITY TO WELL
CHARACTERIZE, ADDRESS,
APPROPRIATELY PHENOTYPE AND
INTERVENE EARLY ENOUGH IN THE
COURSE OF MENTAL DISEASE AND
DISABILITY.
THERE'S ALSO THE QUESTION OF
WHAT ADDITIONAL BURDENS AND
DUTIES WE HAVE TO THE COMMON
GOOD WHEN ABILITY TO TRACK AND
CHARACTERIZE BEHAVIOR IN NATURAL
ENVIRONMENTS OF EVERYDAY LIFE
BECOME AVAILABLE.
WHEN OUR COMPUTER POWER ALLOW US
TO MAKE ASSOCIATIONS AND LOOK AT
SELF-REPORTING AND GENETIC DATA.
THERE'S MORE THAN BEFORE
POSSIBLE TO GATHER INSIGHT.
NEW TECHNOLOGIES CANNOT ONLY
CREATE NOVEL ETHICAL RISK BUT
CAN CREATE NOVEL ETHICAL DUTIES
TO ADDRESS THE MOST PRESSING
PROBLEMS IN SOCIETY AND THIS IS
ONE OF THOSE AREAS.
BAYS THERE'S AN ETHICAL MANDATE
TO PROCEED DOESN'T MEAN THERE'S
A METH CAL MANDATE TO USE EVERY
PIECE OF AN INDIVIDUAL
PARTICULARLY IF DOING SO IN A
CERTAIN CONTEXT MAYBE MORE
INTRUSIVE THAN VALUABLE AND
REQUIRES RESEARCHES TO STOP AND
REFLECT.
THERE'S A NOVEL THOUGHT BECAUSE
A PIECE OF INFORMATION CAN BE
QUANTIFIED WE SHOULD DO SO BUT
WITH EACH NEW PIECE OF
INFORMATION WE COLLECT ABOUT
INDIVIDUALS EVEN IF THE INITIAL
PURPOSE OF COLLECTING THE DATA
POINT IS FOR THE COMMON GOOD WE
HAVE TO ASK WHETHER THAT'S A
PIECE NECESSARY TO IMPROVE
DECISION MAKING OR UNDERSTAND
HEALTH AND DISEASE WHICH
REQUIRES US TO RECOGNIZE
COLLECTING CERTAIN KINDS OF
INFORMATION SENSITIVE OR PRIVATE
INFORMATION SUCH AS FOR EXAMPLE,
HOW OFTEN A PERSON IS ENGAGING
IN SEXUAL INTERCOURSE OR
SELF-STIMULATION IN A HOME
ENVIRONMENT OR PRIVATE THOUGHTS
OR CORRESPONDENCE OR INTIMATE
CONVERSATIONS WITH OTHERS
THEY'RE ENGAGED IN MAYBE MORE
INTRUSIVE INTO THE PRIVACY OF
THE INDIVIDUAL THAN THE VALUE
THE DATA COLLECTION MAY YIELD
TOWARDS OUR INFORMATION AND
KNOWLEDGE ABOUT MENTAL HEALTH
AND DISEASE.
FINALLY, WE HAVE TO REALIZE
THERE'S SOME KINDS OF KNOWLEDGE
THAT MAY CREATE NEW DUTIES AND
BURDENS SUCH AS QUESTIONS ABOUT
WHAT POINT AND WHETHER ONE'S
PRIVY TO INFORMATION TO AN
INDIVIDUAL WE HAVE A DUTY TO DO
SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
SUCH AS EARLY INFORMATION THAT
SUGGESTS A PERSON MAY SELF HARM
AND DOES THIS CREATE NOVEL
BURDENS AND DUTIES ON
RESEARCHERS THEY MAY NOT HAVE
PREVIOUSLY HAD.
AT THE END OF THE DAY WE HAVE TO
ASK HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED TO
KNOW?
ARE THERE SOME KINDS OF
INFORMATION GATHERING WHILE
VALUABLE ARE MORE INTRUSIVE THAN
THE VALUE THEY PROVIDE AND AT
WHAT POINT DO YOU INTERVENE
BASED ON WHAT YOU KNOW?
THE SECOND STEP OF ANY ETHICAL
FRAMING OF AN EMERGING AREA LIKE
THIS ONE STO IS TO LOOK AT THE
CONTEXT.
FROM A REGULATORY PERSPECTIVE
THERE'S INCONSISTENCIES ACROSS
REVIEW BOARDS AND HOW THEY
APPROACH TECHNIQUES AND
DIFFERENCES IN VIEW POINTS
WHETHER THE RESEARCH SHOULD
PROCEED AT ALL AND IF THERE'S NO
CONSENSUS GUIDELINES THOUGH
THERE'S A CALL FOR THAT AND
EFFORTS TO BRING THE GAPS.
WE HEARD ABOUT THE VALUABLE NEW
PAPER ENTITLED ETHICS CHECKLIST
FOR DIGITAL HEALTH RESEARCH AND
PSYCHIATRY.
THE PAPER FOCUSSED ON WHAT THE
RESEARCHERS CALLED DEEP
PHENOTYPING AND CONVENED EXPERTS
THAT DEVELOPED AN ETHICS
CHECKLIST.
THAT WORKSHOP AND THEIR ANALYSIS
REVEALED THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT
ETHICAL REGULATORY AND E
ENORMATIVE GAP AND RESEARCHERS
ARE FACED WITH LITTLE ETHICAL
GUIDANCE IN A COMPLEX SET OF
ISSUES THAT WILL FACE THEM SOME
ARE NEW AND SOME ARE BEING FACED
ON DIFFERENT ACTORS ACROSS THE
SPECTRUM AND IT'S IMPORTANT WE
ANTICIPATE WHAT THEY ARE IN THE
CONTEXT OF PRIVACY, INFORMED
CONSENT AND DUTIES AND NOVEL
DUTIES AND THE KNOWLEDGE OR
RESEARCH POSES.
LET'S DIVE INTO THOSE MORE
DEEPLY.
THAT'S START WITH THE PRIVACY
PERSPECTIVE.
OBVIOUSLY ONE THING THAT IS
NOVEL ABOUT THIS CONTEXT IS THE
US UNPRECEDENTED COLLECTION OF
DATA.
IT'S TRUE NEARLY EVERY MOVE IS
BEING TRACKED AND THEY'RE
TRACKING THE NEURAL CORRELATES
TO GIVE MORE DIRECT ACCESS TO
THOUGHTS, EPOTIMOTIONS AN PROCESSING
IN THE BRAIN THAT WASN'T BEFORE
POSSIBLE.
THAT POTENTIALLY INCREASES THE
RISK OF DATA COLLECTION
TRANSCENDING AN AREA WE HADN'T
BEEN ABLE TO DO BEFORE CREATING
NOVEL COGNITIVE LIBERTY AND
DEVELOPMENT OF SELF AND WHETHER
THE TARGET POPULATION IS
CHILDREN OR IN A HOME SETTING IT
INTRUDES INTO A PRIVATE REALM OF
MENTAL PRIVACY.
AND IT RAISES QUESTIONS ABOUT
NORMS OF DATA SHARING AND DATA
SETS HAVE TO BE PUBLISHED AND
MADE WIDELY AVAILABLE VERSUS
INDIVIDUAL PRIVACY.
THE RICHNESS DATA MAKES IT EASY
TO REIDENTIFIED AND POSES
INTRUSION INTO THE PRIVATE
LIVES OF INDIVIDUALS.
THERE'S NORMS AND LAWS AROUND
PRIVACY COLLECTING AND IT'S
DIFFICULT TO KEEP UP EVEN FOR
THOSE DEEPLY STEEPED IN PRIVACY
LITERATURE AND NORMS FOR
RESEARCHERS TO KEEP UP WITH THE
CHANGING REQUIREMENTS WITH
RESPECT TO THE COLLECTION,
PROCESSING AND STORAGE OF DATA
IS A CHALLENGE.
AND THE PRIVATE-PUBLIC
PARTNERSHIPS AND THOSE WHO HAVE
DIFFERENT REQUIREMENTS WITH
RESPECT TO DATA MANAGEMENTS AND
WHO HAVE INCENTIVES THAT MAY
VIOLATE THE NORMS WITH RESPECT
TO THE INVESTIGATORS, VIS A VIS
THE PARTICIPANTS.
THE SECOND CATEGORY IS INFORMED
CONSENT.
THIS IS ALWAYS CHALLENGING AND A
CHALLENGE IN THIS AREA WHERE THE
RISK TO INDIVIDUALS FROM THE
AGGREGATION FROM THE DATA IS
CONSTANTLY EVOLVING AND HOW DO
YOU PERFORM CONSENT WHEN THE
RISK IS UNKNOWN IS CHALLENGING
WHETHER IT REQUIRES AN ONGOING
PROCESS OF CONSENT OR
TRANSPARENCY IN ORDER TO
MAINTAIN AND ESTABLISH TRUST
BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS AND TO
ENSURE PEOPLE FULLY UNDERSTAND
THE IMPLICATIONS OF
PARTICIPATING IN THE RESEARCH.
AND OF COURSE A WELL
CHARACTERIZED AREA IS THINKING
ABOUT THE PARTICULAR PATIENT
POPULATION IF YEAR ADDRESSING
PEOPLE WHO ALREADY HAVE MENTAL
DISEASE AND DIMINISHED CAPACITY
AND HOW WE GAIN CONSENT IN THOSE
CONTEXTS.
THE THIRD IS DUTY TO ACT AND WE
ADOPTED BEST PRACTICES AND
THERE'S ACCOUNTS FOR
ACCOUNTABILITY AND BREACHES OF
DATA.
DUTIES TO ACT AND INTERVENE MA
THEY MAY ARISE.
AS YOU LEARN A PERSON MAY POSE A
HARM TO THEMSELVES OR OTHERS,
HOW SOON, HOW EARLY AND TO WHOM
NOTIFICATION IS REQUIRED AND
COMPLEXITY QUESTIONS ABOUT
RETURN OF RESEARCH RESULTS
PARTICULARLY AS MACHINE
LEARNING, ALGORITHMS ARE USED TO
ANALYZE WHAT ARE RIGHT NOW A LOT
OF UNKNOWN ASSOCIATIONS.
HOW GOOD DOES THE FIDELITY OF
THE INSIGHTS NEED TO BE AND HOW
GOOD DOES THE INSIGHT NEED TO BE
BEFORE YOU ACT AND BEFORE YOU
HAVE A DUTY TO RETURN RESEARCH
RESULTS AND HOW ROBUST DO THE
RESULTS NEED TO BE BEFORE WE
THINK IT NEEDS TO BE RETURNED TO
THE INDIVIDUALS.
IN ADDITION WITH THE MULTI-MODAL
SENSORS BEING EMPLOYED THERE'S
ADDITIONAL INCIDENTAL FINDINGS
ONE COULD FIND EASILY IS THEIR
DUTY TO SEARCH FOR, IDENTIFY AND
NOTIFY THE PARTICIPANTS ABOUT
THOSE PARTICULAR RISKS.
THE LAST IS CATEGORY OF NOVEL
RISK.
ONLY A FEW OF WHICH I'LL
ENUMERATE HERE.
THESE ARE POTENTIAL RISKS OF
STIGMATIZATION THROUGH
CHARACTERIZATION OF THE
DIFFERENT DEEP PHENOTYPES THAT
MAY BE IDENTIFIED.
SCIENTIFIC CATEGORIZATIONS OF
INDIVIDUALS CAN REINFORCE BIAS,
CREATE JUSTIFICATIONS FOR
DISCRIMINATION AGAINST
PARTICULAR GROUPS AND BE HARMFUL
TO THE GROUPS MOST LIKELY
ALREADY TO BE TARGETED BY THE
RESEARCH BUT ALSO CAN BE HELPED
BY CHARACTERIZING MENTAL DISEASE
AND DEFECTS INFORMED BY THE
PHENOTYPING UNDERTAKEN AND ONE
ADDITIONAL PIECE IS THE
NORMALIZATION OF TECHNOLOGY AND
SURVEILLANCE THIS KIND OF
RESEARCH ENTAILS AND AS WE START
NORMALIZING THE TRACKING OF
BRAIN WAVE ATTACKING AND ENG
ACTIVITY CAN LEAD TO A
NORMALIZATION AND ACCEPTANCE OF
AN AREA WE HAVE NOT CEDED WITH
RESPECT TO PRIVACY AND ONCE WE
RECOGNIZE WHAT THE ETHICAL
ISSUES ARE WE HAVE TO CONSIDER
AND ENSURE WE'RE ENGAGING
STAKEHOLDERS AND ASK WHO IS
IMPACTED BY THE RESEARCH AND ARE
THE FULL SET OF STAKEHOLDERS
ENGAGED THROUGHOUT THE PROCESS.
THIS MEANS MAKING SURE PATIENTS,
PATIENT ADVOCACY GROUPS ARE AT
THE TABLE AND THE FAMILIES OF
INDIVIDUALS WHO WILL BE PART OF
A BROADER SURVEILLANCE KIND OF
RESEARCH ACTIVITY BECAUSE
THEY'RE PRIVACY IS ALSO
IMPLICATED.
SO TOO IS THE SOCIAL NETWORK OF
THE PARTICIPANTS MEANING A
BROADER SET OF INDIVIDUALS
SHOULD BE AT THE TABLE
EXPRESSING WHAT THE RIGHT
PRIVACY PROTECT TO MAKE SURE
THERE'S NOT INCIDENT AL VIOLATION
OF PRIVACY AND SHOULD INCLUDE
RESEARCHERS AND THE
TECHNOLOGISTS DEVELOPING SENSORS
AND THE SCIENTISTS AND OTHER
EXPERTS AND A BROADER SET THAN
JUST THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE
PRIMARY INVESTIGATORS
UNDERTAKING THE STUDIES.
REGULATORY BODIES FROM THE
INSTITUTIONAL REVIEW BOARDS TO
BROADER ONES THINKING ABOUT DATA
PRIVACY AND MANAGEMENT OUGHT TO
BE ENGAGED.
PUBLIC AND PRIVATE PARTNERS NEED
TO BE AT THE TABLE ENSURING THE
CORPORATE SPONSORS HAVE A VOICE
AND UNDERSTANDING HOW THEIR
TECHNOLOGY IS BEING DEPLOYED IN
A CONTEXT LIKE THIS AND MAKE
SURE WE HAVE A FULL AND
ITERATIVE SET THAT'S ENGAGED.
AND RECOGNIZE THIS IS OCCURRING
IN A BROADER ETHICAL AND
REGULATORY CONTEXT.
THE ISSUES ARE FAR FROM UNIQUE
TO THIS CONTEXT.
WHAT'S UNIQUE ABOUT THE CONTEXT
IS LAYERING IN BOTH THE
ADDITIONAL CONTEXT OF NEURAL
DATA BUT ALSO PUTTING IT INTO
THE CONTEXT OF MENTAL DISEASE,
MENTAL DISORDERS AND
CHARACTERIZING THE BRAINS OF
INDIVIDUALS.
THAT'S A MORE SENSITIVE AREA
BECAUSE PEOPLE MUCH MORE
IDENTIFIED THEMSELVES WITH THE
BRAINS THAN WITH ANY OTHER DATA
SET BEING COLLECTED IN SOCIETY.
SO WHAT DO WE DO FROM HERE AND
HOW DO WE PROCEED?
THERE ARE ALREADY STEPS IN THE
COMMUNITY TO TRY TO CHARACTERIZE
WHAT THE NEXT STEPS OUGHT TO BE.
I CALL OUT AGAIN THIS PAPER
DISCUSSED YESTERDAY AN ETHICS
CHECKLIST FOR DIGITAL HEALTH
RESEARCH IN SOCIETY AND IT'S AN
ETHICS CHECKLIST BY ASKING
RESEARCHERS TO THINK ABOUT THE
SET OF QUESTIONS OR AT LEAST A
STARTING SET OF QUESTIONS TO
THINK ABOUT THESE ISSUES.
I WOULD ARGUE THERE'S A BROADER
SET OF QUESTIONS SOME OF WHICH I
TOUCHED UPON HERE SHOULD BE
ASKED AND A BROADER SET OF
STAKERS NEED TO PROCEED IN A
THOUGHTFUL WAY AND TAKE A MORE
PARSIMONIOUS APPROACH TO WHAT
DATA IS BEING COLLECTED AND
RECOGNIZE THERE'S CERTAIN KINDS
OF DATA THAT MAY BE MORE
SENSITIVE THAN WE THINK AND
VALUABLE AT THIS JUNCTURE IN THE
RESEARCH.
THE SECOND IS MAKING SURE WE
HAVE STAKEHOLDERS ENGAGEMENTS
AND UNDERSTANDING THAT TO BE A
BROAD SET OF STAKEHOLDERS TO
UNDERSTAND AND TO USE AN
ITERATIVE PROCESS OF REFINING
APPROACHES AND MAYBE THERE'S NEW
TECHNOLOGICAL SOLUTIONS THAT
ENABLE US TO DO THINGS LIKE MINE
MISDATA STORAGE OR MINIMIZE DATA
BREACHES AND THAT ITERATIVE
PROCESS IS IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE
TO REFINE WHAT THE ETHICAL
LANDSCAPE SHOULD LOOK LIKE FOR
THE AREA OF RESEARCH.
DEVELOPING BEST PRACTICES FOR
DATA MANAGEMENT AND DATA PRIVACY
SHOULD OCCUR WITHIN THE BROADER
CONTEXT.
THE OLD OECD PRINCIPLES FOR HOW
TO THINK ABOUT DATA MANAGEMENT
AND STORAGE WHICH ARE MUCH MORE
GENERAL THAN THE CONTEXT WE'RE
TALKING ABOUT HERE GIVE US A
GOOD STARTING POINT AND SHOW
NEURAL DATA OR THE DATA BEING
QUANTIFIED AND AGGREGATED AND
ANALYZED IN THE CONTEXT IS PART
OF A MACHINE BROADER
CONVERSATION AND THERE'S BEST
PRACTICES WE CAN DRAW FROM.
I'LL SAY AGAIN ANTICIPATE AND
ITERA
ITERATE.
IT REQUIRES VIGILANCE IN
UNDERSTANDING WHAT WE LEARN THAT
REQUIRES US TO DO THINGS LIKE
REFINE INFORMED CONSENT, REFINE
WHAT THE PROCESSES ARE FOR BOTH
IMMIGRATION AGGREGATION AND
ANALYSIS AND DUTIES TO WARN,
ETCETERA.
WE HAVE TO ACT IN THE FACE OF
UNCERTAINTY.
AND THERE'S A LOT OF UNCERTAINTY
WITH RESPECT TO THE RISK AND
THAT'S TRUE BUT I WOULD SAY
TAKING A PRECAUTIONARY PRINCIPLE
TO THIS KIND OF RESEARCH IS ILL
ADVISED IN LIGHT OF THE GLOBAL
BURDEN WE ARE FACING WITH
RESPECT TO MENTAL DISEASE AND IN
LIGHT OF HOW LITTLE WE KNOW
BASED ON A NATURALISTIC
UNDERSTANDING OF HUMAN BEHAVIOR
AND NATURALISTIC STUDY OF HUMAN
BEHAVIOR IN THE BRAIN IN THE
FACE OF UNCERTAINTY WE HAVE TO
ACT IN AS CAREFUL AS A WAY
POSSIBLE WHICH MEANS NOT GOING
FOR THE LARGER DATA GRABS OF
GETTING ANY KIND OF DATA AND
CONTEXT BUT TRYING TO BE
TARGETED IN THE EARLIER STAGES
OF THE RESEARCH.
AND FINALLY FOLLOW THROUGH WITH
PRUDENT VIGILANCE.
THIS IS PROBABLY THE MOST
IMPORTANT ASPECT OF CONTINUING
TO HAVE AN ETHICAL APPROACH
RESEARCH.
WE'LL LEARN MORE AT EVERY STEP
OF THE PROCESS WHICH MEANS WE
NEED TO CONTINUE TO ANTICIPATE,
ITERATE AND KEEP OUR EYES OUT
FOR WHAT WE'RE SEEING AND
LEARNING AND WHERE TO REFINE AND
IMPROVE THE PROCESS WHICH MEANS
A CONTINUAL PROCESS OF ENGAGING
STAKEHOLDERS AND UNDERSTANDING
WHAT WE'RE LEARNING, SEEING WHAT
THE IMPLICATIONS AN IMPACT AND
TRYING TO ADDRESS MISUSE THAT
MAY ARISE.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION.
I LOOK FORWARD TO ANY QUESTIONS
AND FURTHER ENGAGEMENT ON THE
CONVERSATION.
>> THANK YOU, SO MUCH, NITA.
WE HAVE INTERESTING COMMENTS AND
QUESTIONS IN THE CHAT.
AND I'M GOING TO CHALLENGE US TO
TAKE THEM UP IN THE BREAK OUT
SESSIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE
PROBABLY GOING TO HAVE LONG
ANSWERS BUT I'LL HIGHLIGHT A
COUPLE OF THEM.
IN THE Q&A, WE HAVE A QUESTION
ON IS THERE A GAP BETWEEN
ENGINEERING AND THE BIOMEDICAL
ETHICS THE NEURAL TECHNOLOGIES
WOULD REQUIRE OR APPEAR TO
GENERATE?
I THINK THAT'S MUCH OF WHAT YOU
TALKED ABOUT AND THE ANSWER IS
YES THERE'S WAYS TO GO FORWARD
WITH THAT.
JUSTIN BAKER IN THE CHAT OFFERED
OR ASKED ABOUT DETERMINING WHAT
IS ACCEPTABLY INTRUSIVE IN AN
ETHICAL FRAMEWORK AND HOW DO WE
DEAL WITH THE FACT MANY
BEHAVIORS HAVE BEEN DISRUPTIVE
IN HUMANS AND ARE SOCIALLY AND
CULTURALLY NORMD
CULTURALLY NORMED AND PRIVATE.
EVEN IF THEY'RE BIOLOGICALLY
NORMAL DOESN'T IT POSE A RISK
FOR EXPLORING ACTUAL BEHAVIORAL
NORMS AROUND BEHAVIORS IN
PRINCIPLE EASIER TO CAPTURE AND
CHARACTERIZE AROUND SPECIES.
WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT'S
ACCEPTABLY INTRUSIVE?
>> THESE ARE GREAT QUESTIONS.
LET ME START BY THE QUESTION OF
WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S A GAP.
INTERESTING
INTERESTINGLY A LOT OF
ENGINEERING ETHICS DRAWS FROM
BIOMEDICAL ETHICS AND LOOKING AT
THE DIFFERENT ENGINEERING ETHICS
ORGANIZATIONS OR A.I. ETHICS
ORGANIZATIONS DRAW ON THE SAME
PRINCIPLES BUT NOT RECOGNIZING
WHAT THE ORIGINATING TEXT OR
CONTEXT WAS.
YOU SEE A TRADITIONAL IN
BIOMEDICAL ETHICS IN WELL KNOWN
TEXT AND APPROACHES TO
PRINCIPLES OF ETHICS AND
FRAMEWORKS FOR ETHICS WHEREAS I
THINK A LOT OF TIMES WHAT I'M
SEEING IS A FEELING OF
RE-INVENTING THE WHEEL IN
ENGINEERING.
AND I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THE
COMPLEX INTERDISCIPLINARY NATURE
OF BIOMEDICAL ETHICS TO BEGIN
WITH AND SIT DRAWING FROM
PHILOSOPHY OR DRAWING FROM GREEK
FIS PHILOSOPHERS, ETCETERA.
THERE'S DIVERGENCE BUT I THINK
THERE'S A LOT OF COMMONALITY
THERE.
THE DIFFERENCE IN SOME WAYS
THOUGH IS BIOMEDICAL ETHICS AND
THERE'S MORE INFRASTRUCTURE OR
BROADER BASE SO IT MAY NOT BE
APPROACHING IN THE SAME WAY OF
SENSITIVITY AS THINKING WITH A
MORE GENERAL POPULATION.
ALL THIS IS HUGE GENERALITIES TO
SAY THERE MAY BE APPLICATIONS
FROM TECHNOLOGIES ENGINEER
UNANTICIPATED IN THE HEALTH
CONTEXT LIKE THIS ONE MORE
SENSITIVE AND HAVEN'T BEEN BUILT
IN BY DESIGN INTO THE
TECHNOLOGIES ITSELF AND A
CONVERSATION AND ITERATIVE
CONVERSATION MAY HELP US
CONTEXTUALIZE.
WITH WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT'S
INTRUSIVE AND PRIVATE THERE'S
BEEN DEFINITIONS OF PRIVATE AND
THOSE DEFINED AS PRIVATE ARE
OFTEN WITHIN THE HOME OR HIDDEN
OR PEOPLE TRY TO SHIELD OTHERS
FROM.
THERE'S A CULTURAL NORM FOR
TRYING TO SHIELD OR AVERT THE
EYES OF OTHERS AND KEEP TO A
SMALLER ENCLAVE.
THAT'S CULTURALLY TRUE ACROSS
MOST OF HISTORY AND MOST
CONTEXT.
ALL THAT BEING SAID, THAT'S PART
OF WHY STAKEHOLDERS WHO HAVE TO
BE ENGAGED AND THAT INCLUDES AND
I EMPHASIZE NOT JUST THE
RESEARCH PARTICIPANTS THEMSELVES
BUT THE OTHER OF WHOM THE DATA
IS BEING COLLECTED.
THE FAMILIES IN WHICH THEY ARISE
AND THE SOCIAL CONTEXT IN WHICH
THOSE TYPES OF BEHAVIORS ARE
BEING COLLECTED BECAUSE IT
MATTERS BUT THOSE PEOPLE HAVE
NOT OPTED INTO BEING PART OF THE
STUDY AND A LOT OF DATA ABOUT
THEM IS ALSO BEING COLLECTED.
BUT STAKEHOLDERS ULTIMATELY GET
TO DECIDE BECAUSE THEY'RE THE
ONES WHO ARE PART OF THE
PROCESS.
THEY'RE THE ONES WHO HELP TO DIE
FINE -- DEFINE IT AND HELP US
ARRIVE AT A SET OF NORMS TO
GARNER THE TRUST AND THE GOOD
WILL OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PART
OF IT.
SO I DON'T GET TO DECIDE THOUGH
I HOPE I'M A STAKEHOLDER AT THE
TABLE.
I THINK IT'S A MUCH BROADER SET
OF STAKEHOLDERS WHO HAVE TO
DECIDE.
>> THANKS.
MALCOLM.
>> YEAH, I HAVE A QUESTION
REGARDING THIS FRAMEWORK PRIVACY
INFORMED CONSENT.
I WONDER IF YOU WOULD ADD
WHETHER YOU THINK YOU MIGHT ADD
A CATEGORY THOUGH THIS MIGHT BE
SENSITIVE, NOVEL RESEARCH
OBLIGATIONS.
WHAT I'M THINK OF IS IF YOU
THINK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THE
CATEGORIZATION OR DIAGNOSIS OF
AUTISM IT'S EVOLVED AND MORE
SCIENTIFIC NOW BUT ARGUABLY SOME
WOULD SAY PARTS OF THE DSM ARE
CAUSING ARM AND WOULD ARGUE FOR
A SCIENCE OR DATA-REVISION IT
AND WONDER WHETHER THERE'S MORAL
IMPERATIVES SUGGESTIVE OF WHAT
RESEARCH OUGHT TO BE DONE.
>> I THINK SO.
I THINK THAT WITHIN DUTIES TO
ACT, ETHICAL MANDATES TO ACTED
AND IT CREATES NEW
STIGMATIZIZATION IN CATEGORIES
AND BAKE IN BIASES WE MAY BE
LESS AWARE OF WHEN YOU START
USING MACHINE LEARNING
PARTICULARLY IF IT'S NOT
EXPLAINABLE A.I. FOR EXAMPLE
USING TO MAKE INFERENCES AND THE
INFERENCES START TO DRAW ON DIET
OR SOCIO ECONOMIC DIFFERENCES TO
CREATE CATEGORIZATIONS BECAUSE
IT'S PICK UP ON THINGS THAT ARE
CONSISTENT THAT MAY BE RED
HERRINGS.
THERE ARE RISKS OF NEW KINDS OF
CATEGORIES THAT CAN BE CREATED
THAT TRACK ALONG WITH ALL OF OUR
EXISTING BIASES AND STEREOTYPES.
I THINK THERE'S ABSOLUTELY A
DUTY TO CORRECT AND ACT AND ONE
THING I STARTED WITH WAS SAYING
NEW TECHNOLOGIES CAN IMPOSE UPON
US NEW DUTIES TO MAKE USE OF
THOSE TO CORRECT PREEXISTING
BIASES TO CORRECT PREEXISTING
LACK OF KNOWLEDGE AND GAPS IN
KNOWLEDGE AND TO ADDRESS AND TO
USE THAT TECHNOLOGY TO THE
BENEFIT OF SOCIETY.
AND THAT'S TO CORRECT AND
RECOGNIZE THE NOVEL RISK THAT
CREATES ESPECIALLY WHEN IT
EXISTS WITHIN A BLACK BOX.
>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.
I THINK WE'LL MOVE.
WE'RE JUST A FEW MINUTES BEHIND.
WE'LL ME OF ON TO THE MODERATED
BREAKOUT SESSIONS.
IF YOU CAN LOAD UP THE SLIDES
THAT GIVE US THE ORIENTATION.
I'M NOT SEEING THEM SO I'LL MOVE
ON BECAUSE I'M NOT SURE WE NEED
VISUALS.
I'LL NEED TO HAVE CONTROL.
WE HAVE TWO BREAKOUT SESSIONS
ONE ON PAIN AND CLINIC RESEARCH
AND ONE MORE FOCUSSED ON BASIC
RESEARCH QUESTIONS ABOUT
BEHAVIOR AND WE'LL CONCENTRATE
ON ADVANCING BEHAVIORAL SCIENCE
ALONG THE LINES OF THE TALKS
TODAY.
THE BREAKOUT SESSIONS WILL BE
LED BY AYSEGUL GUNDDU Z AND
ANOTHER CO-LED BY KIM HOKE AND
TALMO PERIERRA AND WE WANT TO
RETHINK BEHAVIOR AND THE NEXT
BIG RESEARCH QUESTIONS TO ASK
ABOUT BEHAVIOR.
IN A PERFECT WORLD IF YOU CAN
ASK A QUESTION YOU ARE ARE NOT
ASKING NOW WHAT WOULD THEY BE
AND THE THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK TO
INTEGRATE IN COGNITIVE
NEUROSCIENCE AND SHOULD IT BE
INFORMED BY EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY
AND HOW DOES BIO ENGINEERING
COME INTO IT AND WHAT DO WE NEED
TO INTEGRATE.
THE SECOND CATEGORY OR TOPIC
AREA ARE TOOLS.
WHAT ARE THE TOOLS WE HAVE WE
CAN ADAPT AND WHAT TOOLS DO WE
NEED?
SIMILARLY OR IN ADDITION TO
THAT, WHAT MODELLING APPROACHES
DO WE SEE WE'LL NEED?
WHERE DOES MODELLING NEED TO GO
TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS AND WHAT
ARE OTHER CHALLENGES AND
BARRIERS WE NEED TO ADDRESS
ALONG THE WAY AND THOSE WOULD
INCLUDE A WAY OF DOING NEW TEAM
SCIENCE THAT INVOLVES
MULTI-DISCIPLINARY TEAMS THAT
INTEGRATE DISCIPLINES WE DON'T
NORMALLY STHEET TABLE TOGETHER.
-- SEE AT THE TABLE TOGETHER.
MAYBE THINK ABOUT A NEW RESEARCH
ECO SYSTEM THE WAY PEOPLE
INTERACT ACROSS THE PUBLIC AND
PRIVATE SECTORS WOULD BE ANOTHER
IDEA AND AS NITA AND OTHERS HAVE
HIGHLIGHTED ALONG THE WAY AND
TIMOTHY, WHAT ARE THE ETHICAL
QUESTIONS AND PRINCIPLES WE NEED
TO WEAVE INTO THE PROCESS?
SO WE'LL MOVE NOW TO THOSE
BREAKOUT SESSIONS.
>>AT THIS
POINT OR AT THIS TAKE WE'RE
GOING TO GET SOME REPORT OUTS.
WE'VE ASKED EACH BREAKOUT GROUP
TO PREPARE A REPORT OUT TO
HIGHLIGHT IDEAS AND QUESTION
CAME UP THAT WERE GENERATED AS
PART OF THE BREAKOUT GROUPS.
EACH REPORT OUT WE BUDGETED
ABOUT 15 MINUTES FOR EACH REPORT
OUT.
THEY CAN GO LONGER IF THEY NEED
TO AND THAT WILL LEAVE US AN
ADDITIONAL TIME FOR GENERAL
DISCUSSION.
WHILE THE BREAKOUT LEADERS ARE
GIVING THEIR REPORTS, FEEL FREE
TO PUT YOUR COMMENTS AND
QUESTIONS IN THE CHAT OR Q&A AND
WE'LL INTEGRATE THOSE INTO
DISCUSSION AFTER THE BREAKOUT
REPORTS.
LET'S START WITH TALMO AND KIM
HOKE ON THE ORGANISMAL BREAKOUT
GROUP.
>> I DID THIS THE LAST TWO
SECONDS SO BEAR WITH US.
SO THE IT FORMAT WAS WAS A BIG
DOC WITH CORE QUESTIONS AND
WE'RE GOING TO WALK THROUGH THE
BIG POINTS IN EACH AREA AND
FORGIVE ME, PARTICIPANTS IF I
CUT OUT YOUR THING IN THE THREE
MINUTES OF TIME WE HAVE.
>> TALMO, IS IT POSSIBLE TO
ENLARGE IT A BIT?
FOR THOSE OF US OF A CERTAIN
AGE.
>> OF COURSE.
IN OUR RESEARCH SECTION WE
WANTED TO TACKLE THREE BIG
POINTS.
THE RESEARCH PURSUIT.
WHAT ARE THE HIGH PRIORITY
RESEARCH AREAS FOR
QUANTIFICATION AND I THINK IT
BREAKS DOWN TO ROUGHLY FOUR
DIFFERENT GENERAL AREAS.
WE COVERED MANY OTHER THINGS SO
THINK THIS AS A SAMPLING OF
EXAMPLES.
THE BIGGEST THING THAT CAME UP
WAS HOW WE CAN MOVE TO MORE
NATURAL SETTINGS AND WE WANT TO
DO BETTER BEHAVIOR.
THE EXAMPLE OF THE MISO SCALE
AND WE'VE SEEN EXAMPLES TO THE
ECOLOGY COLLECTIVE SCALE HOW CAN
WE PRACTICALLY APPROACH
REALISTIC SIZES AND THE
QUESTIONS WE ASK AND OPPOSED
TRACKING WITH 1,000 INDIVIDUALS
IN AN ENVIRONMENT FOR THEIR
ENTIRE LIFE ARE THERE BETTER
WAYS TO VALIDATE AND WHAT WE'RE
CREATING IN THE LAB IS SIMILAR
TO THE FIELD.
THAT MAY INVOLVE THINGS LIKE
BRINGING LAB ASSAYS TO THE
FIELDS AND THEN BRINGING THEM
BACK MAKING SURE WE'RE GETTING
THE SAME KINDS OF RESULTS AND
ENSURING WE'RE GETTING MORE
TRULY NATURAL SETTINGS AND NOT
CURTAILING OUR BEHAVIORS WE'RE
MEASURING.
ANOTHER BIG POINT WAS HOW CAN WE
BRIDGE DIFFERENT SPECIES AND
BODY PLANS AND WORK ON MANY
ANIMALS AND MANY NON-STANDARD
MODEL ORGANISMS AND AT THE END
OF THE DAY WE'RE NOT JUST GOING
TO FIGURE OUT THE BRAIN BY JUST
LOOKING AT THE BEHAVIORS THAT
MICE EXHIBIT IN THEIR HOME AGE.
AS WE BRANCH OUT, HOW DO WE
COMPARE ACROSS THOSE AND IS IT
GOING TO BE RELEVANT TO OUR
ULTIMATE GOAL OF TRANSLATING
THIS TO HUMANS.
VARIABILITY I THINK IS A HUGE
CONCERN AS WE AUTOMATE.
THERE ARE MANY WAYS TO DEFINE
BEHAVIOR BUT THEORETICALLY BUT
DEPENDING ON THE FIELD YOU'RE IN
AND WE CAN'T ALL AGREE ON
DIFFERENT TERMS AND IT REQUIRES
PLENTY OF EXTRA STUDY.
SOME TOOL DEVELOPERS HAVE BEEN
ALREADY TRYING TO TACKLE THIS.
IT WOULD BE GOOD TO FULLY FLUSH
OUT THE BEHAVIOR AND LOOK AT
ASSAYS AND LOOK AT
REPRODUCIBILITY BUT WE NEED TO
TAKE A MORE HOLISTIC VIEW
ESPECIALLY AS WE BEGIN TO RELY
MORE ON THE SUPERVISED MACHINE
LEARNING SYSTEMS.
THEN FINALLY BRIDGING THE
DIFFERENT FORMULATIONS OF
BEHAVIOR GOING FROM LIKE THE
TASK BASED AND MORE COGNITIVE
BEHAVIORAL TESTING TO THE
ECOLOGY AND DEVELOPMENTAL
CHANGES IN BEHAVIOR LEVELS OF
ANALYSIS.
AND IN PART I THINK ONE OF THE
CORE THINGS IS MODELLING IT AND
CONSIDERING BEHAVIOR AT THE
ORGANISMAL LEVEL AND AT THE END
OF THE DAY IT GOES TO THE WHOLE
ANIMAL.
THAT WILL BE NECESSARY TO BRIDGE
ACROSS DIFFERENT LEVELS.
MORE WHOLE ORGANISM BEHAVIOR.
COULD DEEP LEARNING PLAY A ROLE
THEN AND UNIFYING THE DIFFERENT
APPROACHES.
DEEP LEARNING CAN SERVE AS THE
>>YOU THAT'S VERY ATTRACTABLE
NUMERICALLY AND DIFFERENT
MODALITY WOULD OTHERWISE BE
DIFFICULT TO INTEGRATE TO
DIFFERENT MODELS.
THERE'S A CHALLENGE IN HOW YOU
INTERPRET THE DEEP LEARNING
SYSTEM AND IF THERE ARE EMERGING
APPROACHES TO CREATE MORE
EXPLAINABLE AND BY DESIGN
INTERPRETABLE A.I. AND MAY SERVE
AS A KEY FEATURE IN THE WAY THAT
WE BRIDGE FOR EXAMPLE THINGS
LIKE GENOMICS AND BEHAVIOR
BECAUSE FOR THAT FLEXIBILITY
BUILDS IN WHAT WE DIDN'T HAVE IN
OTHER FRAMEWORK.
IT WAS CLEAR THAT WE NEED MORE
THEORY.
A LOT OF THE STUFF HINGES ON THE
FACT WE DON'T HAVE UNIFYING
THEORIES OF BEHAVIOR.
PART IS BECAUSE THE MODELS COME
FROM DIFFERENT FIELD BUT WE NEED
A GLUE TO GET THEM TOGETHER AND
WE NEED SOMETHING THAT QUE CAN
TEST AS WE SCALE UP AND DEVELOP
AS A FIELD.
TOOLS.
THOSE ARE THE HIGH PRIORITY
RESEARCH AREAS AND WHAT DO WE
NEED TO FIGURE OUT AND WHAT IS
NECESSARY?
THAT'S THE TECHNOLOGY
DEVELOPMENT AND WILL DRIVE THE
FIELD WITH THEM AND THIS IS A
SAM BLING OF THE LARGE LANDSCAPE
OF BEHAVIORAL MODIFICATION FOOLS
AND WE'LL SEE DIFFERENT KINDS OF
MODALITIES STREAMS AND SOME
PARADIGMS WE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE
BUT WE'RE STILL MISSING A LOT.
WHEN WE BRAIN STORM ONE CATEGORY
IS HARDWARE.
WE'VE NOT HAD SO MUCH BEHAVIORAL
HARDWARE AS FOR MONITORING
HARDWARE.
WE DON'T IS A NEURAL PIXEL FOR
BEHAVIOR.
WE JUST HAVE WEB CAMS AND FLUORO
FLUOROCAMERAS THAT DON'T FIT ALL
THE NEEDS WE HAVE IN MONITORING
ANIMALS OR HUMANS.
MAKE SURE WE CAN CAPTURE LARGE
FIELDS OF VIEWS AND SCALE THEM
UP AND IT WOULD BE CRUCIAL TO
HAVE CAMERAS AND MACHINE VISION
CAMERAS TO QUANTIFY BEHAVIOR BUT
CAN STILL WORK INSIDE THE WATER
AND IN MORE NATURAL
ENVIRONMENTS.
SYNCHRONIZATION AND IT'S A
DIFFICULT TO LOOK AT THE TOPIC
AND SYNCHRONIZE DIFFERENT
INSTRUMENTS WITH EEG CAPS AND
THERE'S FOT BEEN TOO MANY UNE
I'D EFFORTS FOR BEHAVIOR.
THIS REQUIRES ELECTRONICS
EXPERTISE BUT IS SOMETHING WE
HAVE A SET OF NEEDS THAT ARE
SHARED ACROSS THE COMPARATIVE
BEHAVIORAL FOLKS.
IN PARTICULAR TAKING THE TYPES
OF HARDWARE AND INTEGRATING THAT
WITH MONITORING TECHNOLOGY FOR
EXAMPLE BY LOOKING AT TE TIME
SCALE OF BEHAVIOR.
A LOT OF BEHAVIOR IS CONSTRAINED
BY STICKING TWO PHONES AND THEY
CANT MOVE AROUND AND WE NEED
WIRELESS TECHNOLOGIES THAT
INTEGRATE WELL WITH OUR CAMERA
BASE AND OTHER TYPES OF SYSTEMS.
WE CAN ADDRESS QUESTIONS FROM
THE FIELD AND THAT REQUIRES MORE
SPECIALIZED HARDWARE.
WEARAB
WEARABLE SYSTEMS WHEN WE HAVE
SLEEP AND TECHNOLOGY IT'S
MOTIVATED BY THE FACT WE CAN'T
ASK OUR FLIES AND MICE TO WEAR
MOTION CAPTURE LIKE WITH
HOLLYWOOD ACTORS.
IT STILL EXTENDS TO EGO CENTRIC
SENSORS AND CLOSE LOOP
TECHNOLOGIES GOING TO
SYNCHRONIZATION AND TIMING AND
REACHING UP TO THE MESO SCALE
AND MEASURING BEHAVIORS IN
LARGER ARENAS AND WINDS THAT
REQUIRE MORE AND ACQUISITION IS
THE WILD WEST.
AND THERE'S TOOL DEVELOPERS AND
WE GET VIDEOS FROM OUR END USERS
THAT ARE NOT ENCODED CORRECTLY
BECAUSE THEY'RE CAMERA SOFTWARE
HAS SOME PROPRIETARY FORMAT THAT
MAYBE MAKES FOR SECURITY
APPLICATIONS BUT NOT
QUANTIFICATION.
WE HAVE NEEDS IN OUR VIDEO DATA
AND PERHAPS WHAT WE NEED IS
BETTER SOFTWARE DIFFERENT THAN
WE'RE ASKING TO GENERATE AND
ANALYSES FOR THINGS LIKE
MEASUREMENTS AND INFRASTRUCTURE.
AND AS WE MOVE FORWARD NOT ONLY
IS DATA STORAGE DIFFICULT BUT
COMPUTE IS ONE EVEN MORE TRICKY
BECAUSE AND IT'S BUILT FOR
CRYPTO MINING BUT TO NOT FOR
BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION AND I
THINK ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS THAT
MIGHT FIT THE BILL FOR OUR FIELD
IS CLOUD AND NATIVE TOOL AND
INCENTIVES TO BUILD THEM.
THEY GIVE US THE ADVANTAGE OF
GAMING AND MOVING STUFF AND
MOVING A FILE FROM A COMPUTER TO
THE CLOUD IS NON TRIVIAL.
WE NEED BETTER SOFTWARE
STRUCTURE FOR THE NEEDS OF
BEHAVIORAL QUANTIFICATION
SCIENTISTS.
AS IT NOT SOMETHING ANY LAB CAN
PICK UP AND START USING.
WE NEED TOOLS TO NOT JUST BE
ABLE TO OUTPUT STUFF BUT WORK
AND SCALE UP TO THE CLOUD.
AS WE SCALE UP TO BROADER
INITIATIVES THAT WOULD BE MORE
TRANSFORMATIVE AND THERE'S THE
GAP FOR THE MICROSCOPIC SCALE OF
ANALYSIS AND WE HIT THREE
CATEGORIES.
ONE IS HOW DO WE ENABLE TEAM
SCIENCE.
WHAT WOULD THE ALLEN INSTITUTE
FOR BEHAVIORAL QUANTIFICATION
LOOK LIKE?
AND THEY HAD AN UNE FIVING
THEORY AND WORKED OUT WHAT IT
WAS BEFORE THEY SET OUT TO SCALE
UP THEIR INSTRUMENTATION.
IN OUR CASE DID YOU ANALOGIZE TO
SAY THE HUMAN GENOME PROJECT IT
DIDN'T MAKE SENSE TO CREATE THE
MOUSE C PROJECT BECAUSE THERE'S
NO DEFINITIONS FOR THAT PERHAPS
IT LOOKS MORE LIKE A CONSORTIUM
OR TYPE SERVICE THAT ALLOWS US
TO PUT TOGETHER THE BIOLOGIC AND
ENGINEERING SIDE AND WE NEED TO
ADDRESS THE PROBLEM OF
ASSIGNMENT AND CONTRIBUTION.
THERE'S TERMS THAT WE'LL HAVE
3,000 AUTHORED PAPERS BUT IF YOU
WERE TO HAVE ONE IN NATURE
NEUROSCIENCE IT FEELS LIKE YOUR
CONTRIBUTIONS WILL BE DILUTED TO
THE POINT WHERE IT'S NOT
WORTHWHILE TO CONTRIBUTE TO THE
LARGE SCALE TEAM INITIATIVE AND
IF THEY CONTRIBUTE TO LARGE
SCALE EFFORTS IT MAY BE A
CRUCIAL AND ACTION TO CREATE
SUCH CONSORTIA.
AND ONE THAT'S MISSING IN THE
LANDSCAPE OR IN NASCENT STAGES A
CONSISTENT WAY OF REPORTING NEW
TOOLS IN A PREPOSTORY.
THERE'S A POSITION TO COORDINATE
A CENTRALIZED REPOSITORY AS THEY
FOUND THE TOOLS DEVELOPED IN THE
FIELD.
ADDING A REQUIREMENT TOOL
BUILDERS MUST SUBMIT A TYPE OF
METADATA DATA TO A REPOSITORY TO
MAKE IT EASIER TO STAY ON TOP OF
THE GROWING INNOVATIONS IN OUR
TOOL LANDSCAPE.
AND FINALLY EXPANDING OUR
CIRCLES WHICH IS MOTIVATED BY
THE FACT THAT WE GO FROM
COMPUTER VISION AND DEEP
LEARNING AND LOOK AT DISPARATE
FIELD TO MEET THE NEEDS IT FOR
HIGH PRIORITY RESEARCH AREAS AND
OTHERS AND FIELD LIKE COMPUTER
GRAPHICS AND ROBOTICS AND THE
MORE COMPUTATIONAL MODELLING
FIELDS LIKE SCIENCE AND
ORANTHOLOGY AND IN VIDEO GAME
DEVELOPMENT AND CREATING
SIMULATIONS MORE AMENABLE TO LAB
STUDIES AND FINALLY HOW CAN WE
REACH OUT TO NON-ACADEMIC
PARTNERS IF THEY HAVE THE SCALE
AND THE INFRASTRUCTURE TO BUILD
BETTER HARDWARE WE ALL NEED
MAYBE THE BEST WAY INSTEAD OF
COMING UP WITH IT OURSELVES AND
HAVING TO FIND ACADEMIC
COLLABORATORS THAT HAVE
ELECTRONICS EXPERTISE AND SEE IF
YOU CAN MAKE A BEHAVIOR CAMERA
THAT WORKS FOR US RATHER THAN
PURELY INDUSTRIAL NEEDS?
THAT CAME UM WITH OUR SYNTHESIS
AND PLENTIEE MORE IDEAS AND
MAYBE WE CAN SHARE THEM AT A
LATER TIME.
>> THANK YOU FOR MODERATING THAT
WE'LL MOVE TO THE BREAKOUT
RECORD FROM THE HUMAN CLINICAL
NEUROSCIENCE GROUP AYSEGUL AND
KATHERINE, TAKE IT AWAY.
THOSE ARE SOME OF OUR IDEAS.
WE DISCUSSED THIS IN OUR HUMAN
GROUP.
WHAT ARE OUR BIG RESEARCH
QUESTIONS.
WE DISCUSSED WA IS THE BEST
THEORETICAL FRAMEWORK TO STUDY
BEHAVIOR AND THERE'S NOT ENOUGH
INFORMATION TO BE ABLE TO ANSWER
THAT QUESTION.
ONCE WE DECIDE ON THAT HOW CAN
WE MATCH THE TECHNOLOGICAL
IMPROVEMENTS TO OUR MODEL.
IF WE'RE USING A DYNAMIC NETWORK
MODEL WE HEARD ABOUT DURING THE
WORKSHOP WE MAY NEED MULTIPLE
CENTERS AND BIOMARKERS AND MAY
NEED TO DEVELOP THEM BASED ON
DIFFERENT TYPES OF FEATURES WE
DISCUSSED THE BEST TEMPORAL
RESOLUTION AND EXPLORATION TO
DIFFERENT BEHAVIORS AND THERE'S
INTERNAL PROCESSES THAT MAY BE
DIFFERENT AND HOW DO WE COME TO
TERMS WITH THOSE DIFFERENCES.
AND HOW DO WE CLOSE THE GAP WITH
THE RESEARCH AND IT'S BEEN
TERMED THE VALE OF DEATH AND ONE
OF THE PROBLEMS IS THE QUESTION
ARE WIDE DIFFERENT AND WE MAY BE
STIMULATING THE ENTIRE CAMPUS
BUT YOU NEED TO STIMULATE A
SPECIFIC CELL TYPE AND THAT
PREVENTS US FROM DOING THE
FORWARD TRANSLATION THAT MAY BE
HELPING IN UNDERSTANDING THE
EFFECTS OF STIMULATION AND
DIGITAL MEASUREMENT WE'RE
OBTAINING IN RELATION TO
SPECIFIC BEHAVIORS.
WE COULD TAKE COMMON FEATURES
AND MAY BE ABLE TO EXAMINE THEM
IN MORE PRECISE WAYS AND LOOKED
AT PRECISION MEDICINE AS A
STRATEGY TO UNDERSTAND INTERN
STATES AND CLOSED LOOP
STIMULATION OR LOOK AT
FUNCTIONAL AND STRUCTURAL
CONNECTIVITY AND WHAT OTHER
STRATEGIES ARE THERE TO MAKE
ADVANCEMENTS IN THIS AREA.
WE TALKED ABOUT A CONTINUED
FOCUS ON HOW TO INTEGRATE AND
SYNCHRONIZE SIGNALS AND THE
CLINICAL SCALES WE HAVE NOW ARE
PROBLEMATIC.
THEY HAVE LOOK BACK TIMES OF
WEEKS AND NEW ZALES MAY NEED TO
BE DEVELOPED TO HELP CORRELATE
THESE TYPES OF CLINICAL SCALES
WITH THE NEW CONTINUOUS MEASURES
WE ARE COLLECTING OR MAY NEED TO
DEVELOP MEASURES TO HELP US
CROSS THAT GAP.
WE NEED INCREASED MEASUREMENT OF
THE STUDIES THEMSELVES AND ARE
THEY RELIABLE?
ARE THEY MEASURING WHAT WE THINK
THEY ARE MEASURING AND HOW DO WE
CAPTURE THE COMPLEXITY OF THE
ENVIRONMENT.
WE DISCUSSED WHAT IS THE FULL
BRAIN SYSTEM DOING RATHER THAN
JUST STUDYING ONE BRAIN BEHAVIOR
AND HOW CAN WE UNDERSTAND THOSE
BEHAVIORS AND BRING REGIONS AND
CONTEXT OF THE FULL SYSTEM AND
WHAT IS THE CONTEXT OR STATE,
HOW DOES THE STATE THE SYSTEM IS
IN PLAY A ROLE IN THE BEHAVIOR
AND INTERNAL STATES.
WE DISCUSSED THERE'S A GAP IN
THE INTERNAL STATES AND WHAT WE
CAN MEASURE BEHAVIORALLY.
WE CAN'T ALWAYS ACCESS THE
DIFFERENT INTERNAL STATES AND
CAN WE COME UP WITH NEW
STRATEGIES TO DO THAT AND WE
DISCUSSED WAYS TO CAPTURE OR IS
THERE A WAY TO CAPTURE A
PATIENT'S LIFE IN SOCIETY IN THE
CONTEXT OF THEIR LIFE AND THE
PEOPLE THEY MEET AND THE
DIFFERENT ACTIVITIES THEY
PERFORM.
BEFORE I PASS IT ON I'LL
DISCUSS THE POOLS.
>> AND INTRODUCE YOURSELF TO THE
GENERAL AUDIENCE BECAUSE SOME OF
THE PEOPLE IN THE OTHER WORKSHOP
DIDN'T GET TO HERE.
>> I'M KATHERINE SCANGOS A
MEDICAL DISTRICT AND ASSISTANT
PROFESSOR AT UCSF AND WAS
WORKING ON A CLINICAL TRIAL,
LEADING A CLINICAL TRIAL CLOSED
LOOP DEEP BRAIN STIMULATION AT
UCSF.
BACK TO THE BARRIERS WE
DISCUSSED THE NEED FOR GREATER
PRIVATE SECTOR INVOLVEMENT AND
END USER PARTICIPANT AND
COLLABORATORS ACROSS THE SPACE
IN ORDER TO MAKE IMPROVEMENTS.
WE DISCUSSED STRATEGIES AS A
MENTIONED TO UNITE HUMAN AND
ANIMAL RESEARCH OR THE
STRATEGIES ARE NEEDED AND
THERE'S BEEN A NUMBER OF
CONSORTIA OR WORKING GROUPS TO
DO THIS AND THEIR NEEDS COULD BE
MORE IMPROVEMENTS IN HOW TO DO
THIS.
WE DISCUSSED ETHICAL
CONSIDERATIONS AND FRAME WORKS.
UNDERSTANDING HOW DATA IS USED
TO ENSURE IT WILL IMPROVE BRAIN
HEALTH AND WON'T BE USED FOR
OTHER PURPOSE AND THE LACK OF
UNDERSTANDING POTENTIALLY OF
PEOPLE, PATIENTS OR PARTICIPANTS
IN THE STUDY AND RESEARCHERS
THEMSELVES.
AN USING SYNCHRONIZED DATA COULD
INFLUENCE THE ETHICAL
CONSIDERATION IF YOU'RE LIKELY
TO MATCH DATA TO A PARTICULAR
PERSON IF YOU'RE SYNCHRONIZES
ACROSS SOURCES AND THE COMMON
LANGUAGE IS DIFFERENT AND
THERE'S DIFFERENT INCENTIVE
STRUCTURES AND THERE ISN'T
NECESSARILY A STRONG INCENTIVE
STRUCTURE FOR LARGE TEAMS AND
THAT SOME OF THE CONSORTIA BEING
DEVELOPED MAY NOT BE
COMPREHENSIVE PROVIDING ACCESS
TO ALGORITHMS BUT NOT THE
DEVICES THEMSELVES AND A NEED TO
ACHIEVE LARGER SAMPLE SIZES BY
BUILDING THESE COLLABORATE
RATIONS ACROSS THE DIFFERENT
TEAMS AND INSTITUTIONS.
I'LL PASS IT ALONG.
>> I'M AN ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT
THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA AND AT
THE INSTITUTE FOR NEUROLOGICAL
DISORDER.
WE HAVE A COLLABORATIVE CAMPUS
WE HAD A FRUITFUL DISCUSSION ON
WHAT TOOLS DO WE NEED ACHIEVE
THE GOALS THIS PROGRAM THE BRAIN
BEHAVIOR QUANTIFICATION PROGRAM
IS UNDER THE BRAIN INITIATIVE
WHICH HAS A PRIVATE, PUBLIC
PARTNERSHIP IN PLAY.
WE NEED ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS TO
JOIN THE CONVERSATIONS AND THE
OUTCOME THAT COMES FROM THE WORK
SHOP IS FOR ALL THE STAKEHOLDERS
AND AGAIN WE SHOULDN'T FOR GET
THE "S" IN THE BARBECUE AND THE
SYNCHRONIZATION PROGRAM AND WE
DIDN'T TOUCH TOO MUCH ON
SYNCHRONIZATION YESTERDAY AND
LOOKING AT NATURAL BEHAVIOR IN
COMPLEX ENVIRONMENTS AND NEED TO
REMEMBER THE SOCIAL CONTEXT THAT
NEEDS TO BE SYNCHRONIZED OR
INTEGRATED WITH NEURAL DATA AND
BEHAVIOR.
THERE'S THE EXPERIENCE OF THE
DEEP BRAIN STIMULATION PATIENT
THAT RECEIVED THERAPY FOR
DEPRESSION AND THEIR MOOD WAS
ELEVATED BUT THEN THEY HAD TO
ATTEND A FUNERAL AND COULDN'T
EXPERIENCE SORROW AND WERE
EMBARRASSED.
WE TOUCHED ON THE PRIVATE SECTOR
DEVELOPING THESE DEVICES THAT IS
RECORDING THE NEURAL DATA.
WE NEED COMPUTATION WHETHER
THEY'RE RECEIVING THE SPATIAL
SCALES WE NEED TO DO NETWORK
NEUROSCIENCE TO DEVELOP
PERSONALIZED PSYCHIATRIC
THERAPEUTIC TOOLS WE MAY NEED A
WIDER NETWORK AND DO WE NEED IT
AT THE MICRO AS WELL AS THE
MACRO SCALE.
AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT NETWORK
SCIENCE WE NEED TO DO LOOK AT
CAUSAL RELATIONSHIPS AND WE NEED
TO LOOK AT DISTRIBUTED NETWORKS.
WHEN TALKING ABOUT THE WEARABLE
TECHNOLOGIES OR THE TECHNOLOGIES
THAT ARE GOING TO BE LABELLED
BUY -- BIO METRICS DATA WE NEED
THEM PORTABLE BECAUSE THEN WE'LL
AFFECT THE NATURAL BEHAVIOR.
PEOPLE CAN'T ACT NATURALLY IF
THEY'RE WEARING BULKY EQUIPMENT.
WE ALSO WOULD LIKE IT HAVE
TRANSPARENCY OF THE ALGORITHMS.
THAT'S CRUCIAL.
WE NEED TO LOOK AT THE MODEL AND
TRANSLATE IT BACK AND IF THE
MODEL IS TOO COMPLEX IF WE CAN'T
BASICALLY MAP IT BACK TO AN
INFORMATION AND WE MODEL THE
TECHNOLOGIES AS WELL AS THE
TECHNOLOGY ITSELF.
GRANTS TA WILL PROVIDE MODELLING
DISSEMINATION AND THE MODELLING
THAT WORKS IS IMPORTANT AND AS
WE PUBLISH OUR SCIENTIFIC
FINDING WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THE
PRIVATE PARTNERS ARE MEETING
THEM SO THEY CAN ALSO TUNE THEIR
HARDWARE AND SCIENCE TO THE
NEEDS OF OBESITY, OCD AND THE
FREQUENCY SIGNALS AND THE
COMPANIES HAVE BEEN BANKING ON
RHYTHMS THAT ARE A LITTLE FASTER
THAN THOSE.
WE APPRECIATE THE EFFORT OF THE
WORKSHOP TOGETHER AND WOULD ALSO
LIKE TO BASICALLY HAVE ALL THE
STAKEHOLDERS AT THE TABLE NEXT
TIME AROUND TO GIVE EACH OTHER
FEEDBACK.
>> THANK YOU.
AND TO HOLLY FOR MODERATING THE
SESSION.
HOLLY PUT IN THE CHAT
INFORMATION ABOUT A NEW DARPA
INITIATIVE THAT IS QUITE
RELEVANT TO THE WORKSHOP SO TAKE
A LOOK AT THAT.
AND WE HAVE SOME TIME FOR
DISCUSSION ABOUT BASICALLY YOUR
REACTIONS TO THE REPORT OUT.
SOME MAY WANT TO ASK QUESTIONS
AND THOSE WHEN THE BREAKOUT
SESSION MAY HAVE QUESTIONS FOR
TALMO AND KIM.
PUT YOUR QUESTIONS IN THE CHAT
OR RAISE YOUR HAND, TURN YOUR
CAMERA ON BUT LET'S OPEN IT UP
FOR DISCUSSION.
>> KAREN.
>> THANKS FOR THE EX TENSE
SUMMARIES.
I FELT LIKE I WAS IN THE FIRST
BREAKOUT GROUP THOUGH I WAS IN
THE OTHER.
THANK YOU FOR THAT.
I WANTED TO MOVE BACK TO SOME OF
THE ETHICS CONSIDERATIONS AND
I'M CURIOUS HOW THE GROUP MAY
THINK MORE DEEPLY HOW SOME OF
THE SCIENTIFIC QUESTIONS ARE
ALSO ETHICAL ONES.
FOR EXAMPLE, IT'S A HARD TASK
BUT IN OUR ATTEMPT TO OBJECTIFY
EVERYTHING HAVE WE TURNED HUMANS
INTO OBJECTS AND A LOT OF I
HEARD WITH THE SCIENTIFIC DESIGN
WAS WAS A LOT ABOUT THE
QUESTIONS ONE MAY ASK BUT NOT
CONSIDERATION OF THE HUMAN IN
THE PLACE IT WAS GOING TO BE
QUANTIFIED AND THE POSSIBLE
OPPORTUNITY FOR THEM TO BE
ACTUALLY RESEARCH PARTNERS EVEN
COLLABORATORS AND GIVING US
GREATER INSIGHT INTO THE WAYS
THE TECHNOLOGY MIGHT BE
DESIGNED.
WHAT TYPES OF QUESTIONS WE MIGHT
BE ABLE TO REASONABLY ASK AND
THE TYPES OF CONSIDERATIONS AND
CONCERNS THEY MAY HAVE ABOUT THE
WAYS THEY'RE BEING CATEGORIZED
AND THE TYPES OF WAYS THEIR
INFORMATION AND INFERENCES FROM
THEIR DATA MIGHT BE INTERPRETED.
I WONDER IF THERE'S ANY
OFFERINGS FROM THE GROUP THAT
THINK SO DEEPLY ABOUT BEHAVIOR
HOW WE MIGHT EXPLORE SOME OF
THOSE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE
PARTNERS WHO MIGHT BE HUMANS, I
GUESS, THERE'S A LOT OF
COMPARATIVE RESEARCHERS HERE TOO
BUT HOW WE MIGHT AVOID THE
TRAPPINGS OF THE QUANTIFIED
MOVEMENT THAT MOST OF US KNOW
STARTED IN SILICON VALLEY AS A
MARKETING SCHEME ANYWAY AND HOW
DO WE MOVE BEYOND THAT TO
SOMETHING MEANINGFUL AN
INCLUSIVE.
AND I SEE JOHN ON HERE AND I
KNOW HE'S SOMEONE WHO DEEPLY
CARES ABOUT THIS AS WELL.
>> JOHN, DID YOU WANT TO REACT
OR DID HAVE YOU A HAND UP?
>> I'LL LOVE TO HEAR OTHER
PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS.
I HAVE A QUESTION FOR THE GROUP
BUT I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR
PEOPLE'S THOUGHTS ON THIS.
>> IF YOUR HAND SUP AND -- SUP
SUP -- IS UP AND I CAN'T SEE
YOUR HAND UP PLEASE RAISE IT
ANYWAYS.
>> WHAT OPPORTUNITIES COME TO
MIND WE MIGHT MISS OUT ON WHEN
WE REALLY CONSIDER THE AGENCY OF
OUR PATIENT PARTNERS.
FOR EXAMPLE, MAYBE OUR SELF-ALL
RIGHT MEASURES ARE INADEQUATE OR
THE TIME SCALE IS INADEQUATE.
THE INDIVIDUAL CAPABLE OF
MODULATING THE BRAIN STATE.
WE SKIP THE ISSUE OF TRYING TO
MEASURE IT AND INSTEAD OUR PROXY
IS THE PERSON'S ABILITY TO MOVE
IN AND OUT OF THAT BRAIN STATE
WITH SOME TRAINING AND
CONSTRAINT.
JUST GIVING AN EXAMPLE TO
STIMULATE MORE BRAIN STORMING.
>> MALCOLM PUT A COMMENT IN THE
CHAT.
DO YOU WANT TO SPEAK UP?
I WAS JUST I APPRECIATE THE
POINT ABOUT OBJECTIVE FICTION OF
HUMANS.
I'M NOT SURE HOW TO AVOID THAT
IN THE CONTEXT OF THE NEED TO
QUANTIFY BEHAVIOR BUT I DO THINK
SUBJECTIVE STATE IS NOT
ADEQUATELY MEASURED AND I MYSELF
AM IN THE DOING RESEARCH ON
PSYCHEDELICS BUT I HEARD PEOPLE
ARE DOING RESEARCH ON
PSYCHEDELICS AND ARE THINKING
ABOUT THIS AND WHETHER ANYBODY
HERE IS DOING THAT RESEARCH OR
KNOWS SOME OF THE TECHNIQUES
THAT MIGHT BE BROUGHT TO BEAR ON
BETTER SCIENCE OF SUBJECTIVITY.
>> BECOMES MORE RELEVANT IS TO
HAVING THE PATIENTS BE
COLLABORATORS BECAUSE OTHERWISE
IT DOESN'T WORK.
WE DON'T HAVE THE SAME TOOLS
AVAILABLE AT HOME.
AND OTHER THING IN THE LAB I
WANTED TO MENTION WE'RE OFTEN
MOTIVATE THE ANIMAL STUDIES AND
THE OBJECTIVE AND RIGOR BUT AT
THE SAME TIME WE MAY FORGET
IGNORE THE FACT THAT AS HUMANS
THEY CAN SHIFT EASILY BETWEEN
COGNITIVE STATES BASED ON A
SINGLE VERBAL INSTRUCTION AND WE
NEED TO NOT SHY FROM EXPLORING
THOSE SHIFT AND DIFFERENCES
ACROSS SPECIES.
A LOT OF TIMES THAT'S MEANT WITH
HESITANCY TO BE OPEN TO THE FACT
THAT THERE ARE PERHAPS CROSS
SPECIES DIFFERENCES AND THE FULL
PICTURE PROVIDES INSIDE INTO THE
BEHAVIORS.
THANKS FOR BRINGING THAT UP.
IT'S IMPORTANT ALSO FOR US TO
DESIGN OBJECTIVE STUDIES
CONTROLLED AND RIGOROUS BUT AT
THE SAME TIME REMEMBER THEY'RE
HUMAN BEINGS.
>> I AGREE WITH THAT AS WELL AND
IN FACT WHEN OUR PATIENTS IN OUR
TRIAL COME IN AND THAT'S WHAT WE
TELL THEM THEY'RE ACTUAL TO
CONTRIBUTING TO THE RESEARCH AND
BECAUSE IT'S ALL EXPLORATORY
IT'S NECESSARY AND WE DON'T HAVE
GOOD MEASURES OF IN TERRIBLE
STATE.
WE NEED THE PATIENTS THEMSELVES
TO SAY AND SAYING THIS ISN'T
CAPTURING WHAT I'M FEELING OR
HOW CAN WE CHANGE THE SCALE TO
BETTER CAPTURE THAT OR WHAT
STATES DO YOU FEEL ARE
REPRESENTATIVE OF A NATURAL
ENVIRONMENT AT HOME WE CAN TRY
TO RECREATE AND LET'S COME UP
WITH A LIST TOGETHER WITH THE
PATIENT.
WE HAVEN'T CAPTURED THAT IN THE
QUESTIONS BUT I'M GLAD IT CAME
UP.
>> THANK YOU SUGGESTING
SOMETHING LIKE A HIGH TECH BIO
FEEDBACK STAYING AWAY FROM A
MENTAL STATE AND LEARN THROUGH
THE FEEDBACK OF THE MACHINE.
IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SUGGESTING?
AND I WONDER WHETHER THAT NOW
BECOMES TRICKY BECAUSE THEY'RE
ESSENTIALLY LEARNING TO CONTROL
WHAT WE READ OUT AND PRESENT AS
A FEEDBACK.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS ARE THEY
GETTING BETTER.
>> IN THIS CONVERSATION IT'S
IMPORTANT TO CLARIFY WHEN WE
TALKING ABOUT HARNESSING A FORCE
TO ADVANCE OUR SCIENCE.
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE INCLUDE
THAT IN OUR EXPERIMENTAL DESIGN
SOMEHOW TO GET AROUND THE ISSUE
OF SELF-REPORT BEING TOO AM
BIG -- AMBIGUOUS AND THE ROLE OF
THE PATIENT AS AN AGENT IN THEIR
CARE AND THOSE GET CONFUSED WHEN
WE TALK ABOUT CLOSED LOOP BRAIN
STIMULATION.
>> THE TOOLS WE HAVE AND
PATIENTS CAN SAY I'M FEELING
BETTER OR WORSE OR EXPERIENCED
TRAUMA AND
>> I'LL READ FROM THE Q&A.
BEFORE WE MOVE TON A DIFFERENT
TOPIC SORRY TO INTERRUPT.
AND USING A DIVERSE SET OF
BEHAVIORS THERE'S A SUGGESTION
IN THE Q&A THE COMBHUBT FOCUSSED
ON SIGN LANGUAGE AND THAT'S AN
EXAMPLE OF HOW TO BRING IN
STAKEHOLDERS AND AN EXAMPLE OF
BRINGING IN DIFFERENT KINDS OF
COMMUNITY WHERE'S THE BEHAVIORAL
OUTPUT OF INTERNAL STATES IS
QUITE DIVERSE.
WE CAN DISCUSS THAT AND INVITE
TALMO TO CHIME IN IF IT'S ON THE
SAME TOPIC IF NOT WE'LL STAY
WITH THAT A FEW SECONDS AND
TALMO CAN CHIME IN.
>> TIM ALSO HAD HIS HAND UP.
>> WE'RE TRYING TO ORGANIZE
AROUND TOPICS NOT JUST GO IN
ORDER.
>> I WANTED TO UNDER SCORE THE
PREVIOUS COMMENTS ABOUT
OBJECTIFYING THROUGH THE
MEASUREMENT AND THINK OF NOT HOW
WE INCORPORATE THE HUMAN SUBJECT
AND THEIR AGENCY AND TAKE INTO
ACCOUNT THEIR AGENCY OR ABILITY
TO BE AGE AN AGENT OF THEIR OWN
CARE AND THE QUESTION FROM
CHRISTEN CAPSULATE THE CHALLENGE
AND OPPORTUNITY WHERE NOT ONLY
ARE PEOPLE TRYING TO ADVOCATE
FOR THEMSELVES BUT FOR PEOPLE IN
SITUATIONS SIMILAR TO THEIR OWN
AND DETERMINING WHETHER OR NOT A
MEASURE IS WORKING FOR THEM OR A
TASK IS WORKING FOR THEM OR A
SPECIFIC TECHNOLOGY IS WORKING
FOR THEM.
I WOULD LIKE TO INVITE EVERYBODY
TO THINK WITH THE SOCIAL AGENCY
AND THE SOCIAL CULTURAL TIE
EVERY HUMAN SUBJECT BRINGS INTO
OUR STUDIES AND USE WHATEVER
OPPORTUNITIES ARE POSSIBLE TO
BRING COMMUNITIES INTO THE
RESEARCH PROCESS.
>> THANK YOU.
>> A DIFFERENT TOPIC BUT BECAUSE
WE ARE IN THE OTHER BREAKOUT
SESSION I WAS CURIOUS IF FROM
THE HUMAN PERSPECTIVE THERE WAS
A DISCUSSION ON HARDWARE THAT GO
TO BEHAVIOR MODIFICATION.
IN OUR SESSION THERE'S
DIFFICULTY IN LEVERAGING VIDEO
CAMERAS AND LOOK AT OTHER
INSTRUMENTS LIKE BEING ABLE TO
HAVE WIRELESS COMMUNICATION AN
SYNCHRONIZATION ACROSS OUR TOOLS
AND I FEEL LIKE YOU PROBABLY
DEALT WITH THAT FOR A FAIR
EXTENT
>> IN TERMS OF THE PATIENTS
BEING THE STAKEHOLDER WE WOULD
LIKE TO HAVE SOMETHING NOT
FAULTY WE'D LIKE THEM TO ACT AS
NATURAL AS THEY CAN.
>> WE WOULD AS WELL.
>> FAN TAFKT.
FANTASTIC.
>> WE'VE NEVER ASKED THEM
WHETHER THEY THINK IT'S COOL OR
WHETHER IT WAS AFFECT THEIR
NATURAL BEHAVIOR.
WE CAN TALK TO THE STAKEHOLDERS
BEING THE PATIENTS AND I LIKE
THE IDEA OF BRINGING SOCIAL
CULTURAL TIES FOR INSTANCE, I
TEACH NEURAL ENGINEERING AND THE
SAME CLASS I TEACH WE HAVE
AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE BEING
TAUGHT AND THERE'S A COURSE
CALLED DEAF CULTURE AND THEY'RE
ARTISTS AND DON'T LIKE TO BE
CALLED PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
BECAUSE THEY CAN COMMUNICATE.
WE NEED TO WIDEN OUR ROLES AND
LEARN AMERICAN SIGN LANGUAGE.
I LOVE THAT YOU BROUGHT THAT UP.
>> THANKS, JOHN, YOUR THOUGHTS.
>> I'D LIKE TO GENERALIZE
TALMO'S QUESTION TO THE GROUP
FOR EVERYONE TO CONSIDER AND LET
ME FRAME IT FOR SAYING WE
SEPARATE THE GROUPS INTO HUMAN
AND COMPARATIVE AND THAT'S A
EUPHEMISM FOR NON-HUMAN.
WHAT CAN COMPARATIVE MODELS
TEACH US AND HUMANS ARE ANIMALS
TOO.
AN FOR LOGISTICAL REASONS I WE
SEPARATE THE GROUPS BUT I SEE
THE POWER OF FOLKS WORKING ON
HUMANS BEHAVIORS INTERACTING AND
LEARNING FROM PEOPLE WORKING ON
OTHER SYSTEMS.
I'M WONDERING IF EVERYBODY HERE
ARE HEARING THE REPORT OUT AND
WHAT DO YOU SEE AS POSSIBLE
OPPORTUNITIES OR EVEN BARRIERS
FOR THAT INTERACTION FOR PEOPLE
STUDYING DIFFERENT ORGANISMS AND
POSES VERY IMPORTANT OTHER
CONSIDERATIONS NOT THAT WORKING
WITH ANIMALS DOESN'T AS WELL BUT
I THINK THEY'RE IN A DIFFERENT
NOT JUST IN A DIFFERENT DEGREES
BUT ALSO DIFFERENT CONTEXT ALL
TOGETHER.
WHAT DO SOME PEOPLE SEE AS AREAS
THAT COULD ENABLE YOUR RESEARCH
IN LEARNING FROM THE DIFFERENT
RESEARCH COMMUNITIES?
>> LEARNING ABOUT THE CAUSALITY
ASPECT AND ALL MODELS CAN BRING
AND MAYBE SELECT TARGETS AND
PARKINSON'S AND GPI WORK AND
BASICALLY WE'RE MORE OF A GPI
GROUP AND GPIs A LARGER NUCLEUS
SO THE NEUROSURGEONS COULDN'T
PUT IT IN THE IS AND THIS IS
WHEN IMAGING WASN'T AVAILABLE.
THIS IS GRANDFATHERED IN THAT
PEOPLE DO SEN RATHER THAN GPI.
WITH DON'T KNOW WHETHER THE
THALAMUS IS BETTER THAN THE
ANTERIOR PART OF THE GPI.
ANIMAL MODELS COULD DEFINITELY
GUIDE THE CLINICAL PRACTICE IN A
BETTER WAY THAN DOING WHAT WAS
GRANDFATHERED IN.
>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT.
A LOT OF SEC NEEKZ AND
APPROACHES SOURCED AND IN TERMS
OF FUNDAMENTAL UNDERSTANDS AND
BASIC BIOLOGY, WHAT CAN
ANIMAL -- WHAT CAN BASIC ANIMAL
STUDIES DO TO INFORM HUMAN
BEHAVIOR AND VICE VERSA.
I DON'T MEAN TO BE FLIPPANT BUT
HUMANS ARE A GREAT MODEL SYSTEM
FOR UNDERSTANDING BIOLOGY.
THEY'RE INTENSELY STUDIED AND
BEING PHENOTYPED EVERY DAY WITH
TOOLS TO BEAR AND TRANSLATION IS
GREAT BUT WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM
EACH OTHER TO MAKE EACH OF OUR
FIELD MOVE AHEAD FASTER
ULTIMATELY TOWARDS TRANSLATION.
>> TO ANSWER TOM'S QUESTION WE
DO STRUGGLE WITH SYNCHRONIZATION
THE MORE SENSORS YOU HAVE AND WE
DON'T HAVE MINIATURIZATION AS
YOU DO BUT I'M HOPEFUL OR
OPTIMISTIC ABOUT NTP PROTOCOLS.
IN ORDER TO SYNCHRONIZE WITHOUT
PHYSICAL CONNECTION BETWEEN DATA
STREAMS I'M OPTIMISTIC ABOUT.
TO YOUR POINT, JOHN, THIS IS
SOMETHING I ALSO THINK A LOT
ABOUT BECAUSE I STARTED IN MAN
RESEARCH AND MOVED INTO HUMANS
AND A LOT OF MY LAB MEMBERS ARE
FORMER ANIMAL RESEARCHERS WHICH
IS TO ME HAS BEEN PROVIDING A
BENEFIT TO THE INSIGHT IN TERMS
OF APPLYING SOME OF THE TOOLS
THAT ARE NOT NECESSARILY
CROSSING THE BRIDGE OR GAP.
AND I ALSO THINK WE NEED TO BE
OPEN TO WORKING TOGETHER AND NOT
BEING SORT OF HESITANT OR
FEARFUL THAT WA -- WHAT WE FIND
IN ONE SPECIES IS DIFFERENT AND
I INCLUDE NON-HUMAN PRIMATE
BECAUSE IT'S AN IMPORTANT BRIDGE
BUT I PROBABLY FORGOT SOME BUT
THOSE ARE TWO.
>> KATHERINE.
>> I THINK SOME OF OF THE WAYS
STUDYING THESE SIMILAR QUESTIONS
CAN OCCUR FOR EXAMPLE IF WE FIND
A BIOMEDICAL IN HUMANS WHILE WE
ARE DOING INTRACRANIAL BRAIN
STIMULATION, WE CAN SEE IS IT
THERE IN THE ANIMALS AS WELL,
THAT'S A BASIC QUESTION AND HOW
CAN WE MODIFY IT, WHICH CELLS
ARE INVOLVED IN CREATING IT AND
ARE THERE OTHER PATHWAYS IT
INFLUENCES AND WE CAN BUILD
MODELS AND BEHAVIORS COMMON AND
TEST IT IN DIFFERENT SCENARIOS.
I THINK PART OF THE WAY WE CAN
DO THAT IS REASON THE NUMBERS.
WE DON'T HAVE AS MANY HUMANS WE
CAN TEST AND WE NEED LARGER
NUMBERS AND THEN THE
FLEXIBILITY.
WE CAN ONLY STUDY A COUPLE
DIFFERENT PARAMETERS,
STIMULATION PARAMETERS.
FOR EXAMPLE, WE COULD DO A LOT
MORE IN ANIMALS AND WE CAN LOOK
WITH MORE SPECIFICITY IN THE
ANIMAL THAN HUMAN AND EDI DIADIA DIADIAL - -
IDEALLY TAKE THE INFORMATION WE
GAINED AND TEST IT BACK IN THE
HUMAN.
AN EXAMPLE IS FROM SOME OF THE
WORK THAT EDDIE CHANG HAD DONE
IS FIND HIPPOCAMPAL AMYGDALA
BIOMARKER AND IT WAS PUBLISHED
ON BETA COHERENCE AND FIND THE
SAME MAKER AND EXPLORE IT AND
TAKE IT BACK TO THE HUMANS WITH
MUCH MORE INFORMATION ABOUT HOW
IT ARISES, WHEN IT ARISES AND
OTHER ASPECTS.
>> THERE'S CONSIDERING COMMENTS
IN THE CHAT.
TIMOTHY AND KIM DO YOU WANT TO
JOIN ORALLY.
>> WITH AN ONGOING CONVERSATION
ABOUT SENSOR AND SENSOR
VARIABILITY AND'S GOOD
COMMERCIAL DEVICES ARE GETTING
GOOD ON HUMANS BUT ANIMALS POSE
DIFFERENT CHALLENGES HOW THEY
MOVE THROUGH THE ENVIRONMENT AND
THEIR SENSORY ABILITIES DIFFER
FROM THOSE OF HUMANS.
AND WE MAY NEED MORE TOOLS.
>> IF WE THINK THE KINDS OF
SENSORS TO CAPTURE THE ANIMAL'S
EXPERIENCE INCLUDING HUMAN
ANIMALS, THEN THAT MOVING
THROUGH THE ENVIRONMENT
COMPONENT IS PART OF WHAT WE'RE
THINKING ABOUT.
KIM.
>> THERE REALLY ISN'T A
CONCEPTUAL FRAMEWORK HOW THE
BRAIN IS WORKING TO CONTROL
BEHAVIOR IF WE EVEN WANT TO KNOW
WHAT THE RIGHT MEASUREMENTS ARE
WE FELT LIKE HAVING MORE COMPARE
SIF WORK ACROSS MORE ANIMALS
WITH DIVERSITY OF BEHAVIORS AND
ENVIRONMENTAL CONTEXT COULD TO
BE IDENTIFYING THE FUNDAMENTS IN
WHAT WE SHOULD BE MEASURING IN
ANY ANIMAL TO UNDERSTAND HOW THE
BRAIN IS REGULATING BEHAVIOR.
THERE ARE INDUSTRY PARTNERS
ANALYZING THIS AND DATA JOIN IS
ONE AND WORK IN ANIMAL HUMAN
RESEARCH THERE'S SO MUCH
DIVERSITY IT'S HARD TO FOCUS ON
JUST ONE AND FUNDING GOES TO ONE
SPECIFIC TOOL.
HOW DO WE PRIORITIZE I THINK IS
ONE OF THE THINGS I TOOK FROM
THAT COMMENT AND IF WE VALUE IF
WE VALUE COMPARATIVE RESEARCH WE
CAN'T STUDY EVERY SPECIES THERE
IS WE NEED A THEORETICAL
FRAMEWORK TO AGREE ON THE VALUE
OF A PLAYER COMPARISON AND THEN
DEVELOP THE TOOLS TO DO THAT.
DO WE HAVE OTHERS THAT WANT TO
JUMP IN BESIDES MY CAT?
SORRY.
>> THERE'S ONE INCENTIVE
STRUCTURE TOWARDS MONEY AND NOT
TOWARDS SCIENTIFIC INQUIRY WHICH
VARIES ACROSS SCIENTISTS.
I THINK IT WAS BROUGHT UP HOW DO
YOU INCENTIVIZE THEM TO WORK
TOGETHER WITH THE INFRASTRUCTURE
AND EVERYONE HAS THEIR DEMON
THAT SWAYS THEM AND ONE THING
I'VE BEEN DOING IS UNDERSTANDING
A LOT OF INDUSTRY PARTNERS ARE
AND THEY UNDERSTAND THINGS THAT
I HAVEN'T ENCOUNTERED AND WE
HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO NOT JUST
THINK ABOUT COLLABORATING AND
HOW TO GET INDUSTRY TO LET US
USE THEIR TOOLS BUT ALSO THINK
WHAT MIGHT WE LEARN FROM EACH
OTHER AND BE ABLE TO EXCHANGE
NOT TO MENTION SOME OF THE CLOUD
QUESTIONS AND THE WHOLE
DECENTRALIZED SCIENCE MOVEMENT
LED BY PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER
THEMSELVES SOCIAL JUSTICE
WARRIORS AND COME FROM A CRYPTO
BACKGROUND AND WORKING ON DATA
WALLETS FOR WEALTH AND HAVING
HACKATHONS HOW TO STRIP DOWN
MULT MALL HARDWARE DEVICE TO RAW
EEG AND THEN BE ABLE TO RECAT
GERRI IZRIZ IZRIZ IZRIZE -- RECATEGORIZE T HAT
PARTICULARLY AROUND WEARABLE
TECHNOLOGIES AND THERE'S A WHOLE
OTHER WORLD I'VE NOTICED
OPERATING CENTRALIZED SCIENCE AN
ONE IS THIS MONOLITHIC INDUSTRY
THAT COMES UP A LOT OF AND SUCH
AS THERE'S DIVERSITY HERE WITH
TECHNIQUES AND UNIVERSITIES IT'D
BE INTERESTING TO CONSIDER THE
PLURALITY SO IT'S NOT JUST ONE
INDUSTRY REPRESENTED COMING IN
TRYING TO SPEAK ON BEHALF OF
EVERYBODY.
IT MAY BE A LOT OF FOR US TO
LEARN.
I THINK MANY OF US ALREADY HAVE
INDUSTRY COLLABORATIONS WE MIGHT
LEARN FROM AS WELL.
>> THANK YOU.
IT WOULD BE IMPORTANT TO LEARN
ABOUT PRECOMPETITIVE SPACES AND
IDEAS CAN BE SHARED WHILE
KEEPING INTACT THE INCENTIVE
STRUCTURES NECESSARY FOR SOME
PRIVATE PEOPLE IN THE PRIVATE
SECTOR.
THAT WOULD CERTAINLY BE A
CONVERSATION GOING FORWARD.
MOLLY ADDED A COMMENT IN THE
CHAT RELATING TO THE PREVIOUS
QUESTION ABOUT WA -- WHAT WE CAN
LEARN FROM ANIMAL MODELS.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO ELABORATE?
>> I WAS GIVING THE
POSSIBILITY -- THE BRAIN IS SAY
PLASTIC ORGAN AND HUMANS ARE
GOING HAVE IMPAIRMENTS IN
DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE BRAIN AND
WE NEED TO FIND COMPENSATORY
ACTIONS FOR THE BRAIN TO HANDLE
THE IMPAIRMENTS.
IF WE START ACTING OR
INVESTIGATING DIFFERENT ANIMALS
THAT USE DIFFERENT PATHWAYS TO
SOLVE PARTICULAR PROBLEMS WE CAN
IDENTIFY DIFFERENT TARGETS FOR
SPECIFIC TASKS.
THAT'S WHY I THINK THERE'S GOING
TO BE GREAT POWER IN THE
COMPARATIVE APPROACH TO FIND
COMPENSATORY PATHWAYS FOR
HUMANS.
I SEE MORE IN THE CHAT.
WOULD YOU LIKE TO CHIME IN?
>> WE'RE GOING HAVE A LOT OF
DATA AND FINDING THOSE
RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN BRAIN
ACTIVITY AND BEHAVIOR ARE GOING
TO BE HIGHLY VARIABLE.
HOW DO WE DEAL WITH THAT.
I THINK SOME OF THE SCIENTIFIC
METHODS AND TALK ABOUT
PERSONALIZED MEDICINE OR
QUANTIFICATION OF LIKE HOW
PEOPLE USE THEIR BRAINS AND
MOVEMENT DEFY THE STANDARDS
STATISTICAL MODELS AND SO THAT'S
A BIG -- THE WAY WE THINK ABOUT
MEANS AND STANDARD DEVIATIONS
DOESN'T EVEN WORK.
ESPECIALLY WITH MACHINE LEARNING
AND LOOKING FOR REGULATES WE MAY
BE LOSING A LOT OF THIS
VARIABILITY AND NOT BEING ABLE
TO DO THAT TYPE OF PERSONALIZED
MEDICINE FOR EACH PERSON'S BRAIN
BECAUSE IT IS PLASTIC AND
TOTALLY RE-ORGANIZED BASED ON A
PARTICULAR DISEASE AND
EXPERIENCES AND SEEKING MEDICAL
HELP AND CHANGE THE END POINT
AND THE WAY TO RESTORE THE
FUNCTION THEY MIGHT WANT.
>> I WANT TO HIGHLIGHT ANOTHER
COMMENT YOU PUT IN THE CHAT THAT
IS SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT WHEN
WE'RE THINKING ABOUT DATA-DRIVEN
APPROACHES AND MODELS WHERE WE
NEED TO HAVE A TEACHING SET AND
THAT IS WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT
THE TEACHING SET IS AND WHO GETS
TO DECIDE WHICH PEOPLE OR
ANIMALS CONTRIBUTE TO A SORT OF
TEACHING SET FOR A MACHINE
LEARNING MODEL OF A PARTICULAR
BEHAVIOR AND THERE ARE CULTURAL
DIFFERENCES ACROSS DIFFERENT
COMMUNITIES OF PEOPLE SUCH THAT
THAT HAS TO HAVE DEEPER
CONSIDERATION AND THAT IN TURN
FLUN --
INFLUENCES THE MODELS WITH
DATA-DRIVEN MODELS.
AND I SEE ONE LAST COMMENT
BESIDES LOTS OF PEOPLE AGREEING.
AND THE COMMENT ABOUT THE NEED
FOR PRE-COMPETITIVE SPACES AND
THE SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY HAS A
COMPETITIVE RESEARCH AGENDA.
DO YOU WANT TO SPEAK MORE ABOUT
THAT?
>> JUST AS A MODEL TO STUDY.
IT'S VERY WELL KNOWN AND LEATHER
CONSORTIUMS AND THE IDEA IS IF
YOU HAVE A ROAD MAP TYPICALLY,
THEN YOU CAN PUT TIME LINES AND
FULL DISCLOSURE I WAS 15 YEARS
AT INTEL AND SO JUST THE MODEL
TO STUDY FOR UNDERSTANDING WHAT
WORKS FOR THAT TRANSLATIONAL
MODEL AS WELL AS LIKE THE NEXT
STEP.
AND KIND OF THE CAVEAT IS ONE OF
THE REASONS I THINK AMONG
VARIOUS INDUSTRIES AND THE
SEMICONDUCTOR INDUSTRY WAS
SUCCESSFUL IS THE CONCEPT OF THE
ROAD MAP.
WHETHER OR NOT IT WAS BASED ON
SCIENCE, IN MY PERSPECTIVE BUT
HAVING A ROAD MAP HELPS
DIFFERENTIATE WHAT IS
COMPUTATIONAL.
BUILD A MODEL FOR RESEARCH.
MAYBE SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT
FOR THE COMMUNITY IS TO
UNDERSTAND HOW TO STUDY SOME OF
THOSE STATISTICAL MODELS.
>> AND WAS THE NEXT STEP TO
THINK ABOUT AND DEVELOP THE ROAD
MAP.
MAYBE THAT'S A GOOD TIME TO MOVE
ON FROM THE DISCUSSION AND HAVE
CLOSING THOUGHTS.
I'LL HAND IT BACK TO DANA TO
INTRODUCE JOHN AND WRAP UP THE
MEETING.
>> I'M GOING TO HAND IT OVER TO
JOHN NGAI.
HE'S OUR DIRECTOR OF THE BRAIN
INITIATIVE.
AND I CAN'T REMEMBER SEEMS LIKE
HE'S BEEN THERE FOREVER BUT I
THINK THAT'S ONLY BEEN A COUPLE
YEARS OR SO BUT WE'VE BEEN
EXCITED SO HAVE HIM AND I'LL
LEAVE IT TO HIM TO GET THE
CLOSING REMARKS AND THEN I'LL
JUST COME BACK AT THE END AND
CLOSE THE MEETING.
>> THANKS, DANA.
CAN YOU SEE MY SLIDE?
IT ONLY SEEMS LIKE FOREVER BUT
IT HASN'T BEEN TWO YEARS.
>> I MEAN THAT IN THE BEST WAY.
>> IT'S BEEN A GREAT TWO DAYS.
I'VE LEARNED SO MUCH AND WE'VE
COVERED SO MUCH GROUND FROM MANY
DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES WHICH IS
WHAT THE FIELD NEEDS TO MOVE
THESE VERY DIFFICULT PROBLEMS
INTO BETTER LIGHT.
SO I JUST PREPARED A FEW CLOSING
REMARKS WHILE YOU FOLKS WERE IN
YOUR BREAKOUT ROOMS AND WAS
TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO
CLOSE OUT THE THINGS THAT HAVE
COME UP SO I'LL TRY TO BE BRIEF.
SOW A FEW EMERGING THEMES AND
THIS IS NOT A REAL EXHAUSTIVE
LIST BUT THINGS THAT GOT MY
ATTENTION.
ONE THING IS IMPORTANT TO STUDY
ANIMAL BEHAVIORS NOT ONLY IN
HUMANS IN ANIMALS OR IN LAB
CONDITIONS WHERE WE THINK WE'RE
CONTROLLING THE ENVIRONMENT VERY
WELL BUT ALSO IN MORE
NATURALISTIC CONDITIONS.
I THINK THESE APPROACHES
TOGETHER WILL HAVE A GREATER
POTENTIAL TO REVEAL THE FULL
REPERTOIRE AND COMPLEXITIES OF
BEHAVIORS AND HOPEFULLY INTERNAL
STATES WHICH WILL BE THE REAL
CHALLENGE TO GET AT AND THAT
STRUCK HOME TO ME.
IN A NUMBER OF INSTANCES THERE'S
THE IMPORTANCE OF CONSIDERING
NOT JUST THE ENVIRONMENTAL
CONTEXT WHAT IS THAT -- IN WHAT
SET OF CIRCUMSTANCES IS THAT
ANIMAL NAVIGATING THE
ENVIRONMENT BEHAVING BUT ALSO
THE SOCIAL CONTEXT AND THE CON
SPECIFICS AS WELL AS PERHAPS
PREY OR OTHER THREATS OR OTHER
PEOPLE OR ANIMALS AROUND THE
SUBJECTS.
OF COURSE WE TYPICALLY DON'T
OPERATE IN ISOLATION OF OUR
ENVIRONMENT OR OF OTHER
SPECIFICS.
SO THE GOAL OF THE WORKSHOP IS
TO TRY TO SORT OUT DIFFERENT
WAYS OF LINK ACTIVITY TO
BEHAVIOR.
AND NOT TO THINK OF THE
BEHAVIORS VIDEO PROCESSORS WHERE
YOU HAVE AN INPUT, A SECTOR AND
BEHAVIOR BUT MORE AT THE LEVEL
OF THE CURRENT NETWORKS AND
THINK PEOPLE SPOKE ABOUT LESSONS
WE LEARNED FROM CONTROL THEORY.
ANOTHER INTERESTING POINT RAISED
WAS THE NEED TO UNDERSTAND THE
PURPOSE AND GOAL OF BEHAVIOR.
AND THE SENSORY INPUT THAT
DRIVES A SPECIFIC SISHLTH AND
RESULTS IN A SPECIFIC BEHAVIOR
BUT IT WAS POINTED OUT MAYBE
IT'S MORE OF A CLOSED-LOOP
SYSTEM AND THE BEHAVIOR CAN
DRIVE WHAT SENSORY ONE GETS.
WHEN I'M DRIVING AROUND DISH
REMEMBER DRIVING AROUND TOWN
AFTER MOVING TO BERKELEY TO A
FAMOUS BARBECUE JOINT AND
NAVIGATED TO MYSELF THAT PLACE
BECAUSE MY BEHAVIOR WAS DRIVING
ME TO A MORE PLEASURABLE SENSORY
INPUT.
IT'S HARD TO OVERSTRESS THE
IMPORTANCE OF ESTABLISHING
CAUSALITY AND AS WE GET INTO
MACHINE LEARNING TECHNIQUES WE
HAVE TO LOOK AT HYPOTHESES AND
VALIDATE OR FALSIFY THE
HYPOTHESIS AN LEAD TO NEW AND
BETTER ONES.
DAVID ANDERSON PUT A NICE
ANALOGY IN THE CHAT YESTERDAY
AFTER THE TALKS.
LOOKING AT A VARIETY OF
DIFFERENT SPECIES EACH WITH
THEIR OWN SPECIALIZATIONS WILL
HELP US IDENTIFY GENERALIZIZED
STRATEGIES AND ULTIMATELY IN
BEHAVIOR.
EVOLUTION IN TERMS OF SPECIES
IT'S BEEN GOING ON 4500 YEES --
YEARS AND WHAT ARE THE LESSONS
WE CAN LEARN AND ECOING THE
COMMENTS NOW AS WELL AS IN THE
CHAT, NOT EVERYTHING HAS TO BE
SIMILAR FOR US TO UNDERSTAND THE
DIFFERENCES ARE USEFUL AND WE
NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEM.
THE FINAL POINT IS TO ADDRESS
VARIABILITY.
IF WE UNDERSTAND THE DRIVERS OF
VARIABILITY IN WHATEVER WE
STUDY WE CAN LEARN A LOT ABOUT
THE SYSTEMS AND THERE WAS A
GREAT POINT THAT VARIABILITY IN
BEHAVIOR ISN'T ALWAYS JUST
NOISE.
AGAIN SOMETHING TO PAY ATTENTION
TO.
AND WE'VE ALSO COME ACROSS SOME
ONGOING NEEDS.
VERY IMPORTANT IS WE NEED
FRAMEWORK FOR DESIGNING AND
INTERPRETING OUR INVESTIGATIONS.
AND WE HAVE SOME FRAMEWORKS AND
WE NEED MORE AND BETTER ONES WE
ARE LOOKING AT AN ABUNDANCE OF
RICHES HERE AND WE NEED TO
DEVELOP DATA INFRASTRUCTURE TO
HANDLE, STORE, ANALYZE COMPARE
AND DISSEMINATE LARGE AND
COMPLEX DATA SETS.
I THINK IT WAS MENTIONED A
COUPLE TIMES THAT QUALITY
CONTROL AND METADATA STANDARDS
ARE ESSENTIAL TO ENSURE
DEMOCRATIZE AND REUSE OF DATA
AND MANY INSTANCES PEOPLE HAVE
DISCUSSED THE IMPORTANCE OF
DEVELOPING NEW MACHINE LEARNING
AND ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE
APPROACHES TO ASSIST US AND FROM
THE HARDWARE SIDE WE HAVE
SEVERAL TECHNOLOGY NEEDS AND I
PUT THEM INTO BUCKETS.
IT'S CLEAR WE NEED NEW AND/OR
IMPROVED MODALITIES FOR
INCREASED SPATIAL RECORDING
ELECTRODES AND NEW VIDEO
MONITORING TECHNIQUES AND WHAT
ARE WE MISSING.
CAN WE PICK UP MORE WITH HIGH
SPEED VIDEO TO GET A MORE
GRANULAR ANALYSIS OF BEHAVIORS.
WHAT ARE WE MISSING BY USING IN
SOME CASES CONVENTIONAL VIDEO.
AND THERE'S OTHER WAYS OF
MONITORING BEHAVIORS BESIDES
VIDEO.
THERE'S A LOT OF APPLICATIONS
OUT THERE, INFRARED, LIDAR.
WHEN YOUR iPHONE LOOKS AT YOU
WHAT IS IT DOING?
IT'S PROCESSING AND THERE'S A
LOT OF TECHNOLOGIES THAT HAVEN'T
BEEN FULLY LEVERAGED AND THERE'S
ENERGY CONSUMPTION IN THINKING
ABOUT WEARABLES AND THERE WAS A
BEAUTIFUL STUDY WITH THE
WEARABLE IN A HUMAN HUMONGOUS
BACKPACK AND WE'RE NOT GOING TO
PUT IT ON A RAT AND TALKING
ABOUT THE ENERGY CONSUMPTION AND
THAT BECOMES IMPORTANT AS WITH
BANDWIDTH AND ENERGY IN AND
SIGNAL OUT.
AND VERY IMPORTANT AND THIS IS
THE S IN THE SYNCHRONIZATION, WE
NEED TO FIND PAYS TO BETTER
INTEGRATE FROM MULTIPLE
MODALITIES AND SYNCHRONIZE THEM
WHETHER THEY'RE PHYSIO LOGIC OR
BEHAVIORAL, WHAT HAVE YOU.
AND STARTED TO SEE SYSTEMS
DEPLOYED IN HUMANS AND THIS
INVOLVES ON THE FLY PROCESSING.
ALL THE ABOVE THINGS WILL BE
REQUIRED FOR EVENTUAL
APPLICATIONS IN HUMANS.
I WANT US TO CONSIDER A FEW
THINGS AS NEXT STEPS FOR THE
FUTURE.
FOR RESEARCHERS IN THE FIELD AND
ON THE PART OF THE FUNDERS.
SO THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR
US TO TALK TO EACH OTHER.
IT'S BEEN A GREAT WORKSHOP.
I REGRET WE COULDN'T DO THIS IN
PERSON BECAUSE I IMAGINE THERE
WOULD HAVE BEEN SOME REALLY
GREAT DISCUSSIONS AT THE BREAKS
AND EVENINGS AT THE BAR AND OVER
DINNER BUT IT'S IMPORTANT WE
FIND COMPLIMENTARY AREAS OF
EXPERTISE TO BREAK DOWN
TECHNICAL AND CONCEPTUAL
BARRIERS THAT PREVENT US FROM
SOLVING THE DIFFICULT PROBLEMS.
WE SHOULD ASK OURSELVES WHAT NEW
DISCIPLINES CAN WE BRING TO THE
PARTY TO HELP US REINVENT OUR
OWN SCIENTIFIC ECO SYSTEM AND
CAN WE CREATE A NEW FIELD OUT OF
EXISTING ONES.
JUST BY BRINGING PEOPLE IN THAT
HAVEN'T CONSIDERED THE TOPICS
OVER THE LAST TWO DAYS THERE'S A
HUGE BENEFIT TO PUBLIC PRIVATE
PARTNERSHIPS AND THIS LITTLE
THING I PUT IN HERE I HAVE TO
CREDIT ANOTHER PERSON WHERE THE
COMBINATION BETWEEN ACADEMIC
INSTITUTIONS AND NONPROFITS AND
ORGANIZERS AND INDUSTRY AND
GOVERNMENT REALLY LEADS TO GREAT
INNOVATION.
VERY IMPORTANTLY, WE NEED TO
CONSIDER THE ETHICAL, LEGAL
SOCIETAL IMPACTS AAT THE OUTSET
AND THE VERY BEGINNING WHEN WE
START THINKING ABOUT THE STUDIES
WE WANT TO CONDUCT, WE NEED TO
THINK OF THE IMPLICATIONS AND
THE RISKS AND COSTS AND HOW CAN
WE JUSTIFY DOING THE EXPERIMENTS
WHETHER IT'S AN ANIMAL OR WHEN
IT'S IN HUMANS AND CRITICALLY WE
NEED TO CONSIDER WHO IS IN THE
ROOM.
WHO IS IN THE ROOM WILL
DETERMINE WHAT QUESTIONS ARE
ADDRESSED AND THEREFORE WHO
STANDS TO BENEFIT.
LET'S NOT DISCOUNT THE VERY
CRITICAL NEED TO CONSIDER A
DIVERSITY OF PERSPECTIVES.
THERE'S DISCUSSION GIVEN THE
ENORMITY OF THE PROBLEM OF HOW
NEURAL CIRCUITS UNDER LIE THE
BEHAVIOR, IS THIS THE BIG
PROBLEM.
IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
WHAT I POSE TO YOU IS THE
FOLLOWING, NOW, ONE COULD THINK
ABOUT STANDING UP ASSEMBLY LINE
FACTORS AND THESE ARE GREAT FOR
CRANKING OUT DATA BUT YOU NEED A
QUESTION AND GOAL IN MIND.
IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE JUST TO
THROW THOUS IT -- THOUSANDS OF
PEOPLE AT A PROBLEM IF YOU DON'T
HAVE A FRAMEWORK.
THE OTHER IS THE IDEA OF
ESTABLISHING COLLABORATIVE
CONSORTIA WHERE WE HAVE SMALLER
GROUPS OF PEOPLE FOCUSSED ON
SPECIFIC PROBLEMS WITH A COMMON
GOAL SHARED WITH OTHERS IN THE
CONSORTIUM TO TEST THEM TOGETHER
AND THE FINAL OUTPUT WILL BE
GREATER THAN THE SUM OF THE
PARTS.
I THINK THERE'S A LOT OF SPACE
BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL LABS, SMALL
LABS AND THESE GIGANTIC FACTORY
FORMING EFFORTS.
I WAS FORTUNATE TO BE INVOLVED
IN THE BRAIN INITIATIVE CELL
CENSUS NETWORK AND ONE OF THE
PAPERS WE PUBLISHED TOGETHER
BACK IN OCTOBER HAD 250
RESEARCHERS ON THAT AND
INVESTIGATORS.
BUT IT WAS A COMING TOGETHER OF
MULTIPLE GROUPS WORKING TOGETHER
WITH A SHARED GOAL OF TRYING TO
SOLVE A LARGER PROBLEM WHERE NO
ONE WOULD AS POWERFUL AS SOME OF
THE GROUPS MIGHT HAVE BEEN COULD
HAVE DONE IT ON THEIR OWN.
NOW, THE ISSUE OF THE CREDIT IS
A BIG ONE AND WILL TAKE A
PARADIGM SHIFT NOT JUST ON THE
PART OF GRANT REVIEWERS BUT ON
US, THE ENEMY IS US.
IT'S THE FOLKS HERE IN THE
ACADEMIC AND INDUSTRIAL REALM
AND REVIEWING AND PROMOTION
CASES AND REVIEWING JOURNAL
ARTICLES AND SOME OF US
RECOVERING ACADEMICS AND
GOVERNMENT ARE ALSO LOOKING AT
WAYS OF TRYING TO ASSIGN CREDIT
WHERE IT'S NOT QUITE AS OBVIOUS
AS IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SIX OR 12
YEARS AGO BUT THERE'S A PATH
FORWARD.
THE GREAT REWARD IS WE CAN ALL
DO BETTER SCIENCE BY
COLLABORATING AND WORKING
TOGETHER.
VERY IMPORTANTLY, THIS TIES INTO
THE IMPORTANCE OF MENTORING,
PROMOTING THE NEXT GENERATION OF
LEADERS.
THE HEART AND SOUL OF MOST
STUDENTS ARE THOSE THE POSTDOCKS
AND NEED TO MORE THAN AND
CULTIVATE BECAUSE THESE ARE THE
FOLKS TAKING THE FRUITS OF OUR
LABOR AND MAKING A HUGE IMPACT
OF TOMORROW.
STAY TUNED.
AGAIN, TALK TO EACH OTHER.
HOPEFULLY IF NOTHING ELSE SOME
OF YOU FOLKS MADE SOME
CONNECTIONS AND THINK OF DOING
PROJECTS TOGETHER YOU MIGHT NOT
HAVE OTHERWISE BEFORE AND THERE
ARE A NUMBER OF CURRENT FUNDING
OPPORTUNITIES NOT ONLY AT BRAIN
BUT ELSEWHERE AT NIH AS WELL AS
NSF THAT YOU FOLKS MIGHT FIND
YOURSELVES WELL ALIGNED TO AND
STAY TUNED FOR A FUTURE FOA
COMING OUT OF THE BRAIN
INITIATIVE IN THIS SPACE AND
GOING BACK TO A POINT I RAISED
BEFORE THAT WE HAVE ORGANIZED
THIS SYMPOSIUM, THIS WORKSHOP IN
TERMS OF HUMAN AND ORGANISMAL
COMPARATIVE RESEARCH AND THE
OVERALL GOAL IS TO HAVE CROSS
TALK BETWEEN THE GROUPS BECAUSE
WE STAND A LOT TO LEARN FROM
EACH OTHER.
I'D LIKE TO THANK EVERYBODY
HERE, ALL THE PARTICIPANTS FOR
THE GREAT DISCUSSION FOR TALKING
ABOUT SOME REALLY GREAT IDEAS IN
GREAT SCIENCE AND THE ORGANIZERS
WHO PUT TOGETHER A TERRIFIC
WORKSHOP.
I'LL STOP HERE AND TURN IT BACK
OVER TO HOLLY OR DANA.
>> DANA.
THANK YOU.
>> TERRIFIC.
THANK YOU SO MUCH JOHN.
HOW EXCITED I'VE BEEN ABOUT THIS
EFFORT AND PUSHING THIS FORWARD.
THIS HAS BEEN A TERRIFIC
WORKSHOP.
IT HAS GIVEN US AT NIH AS WELL
AS OUR SISTER AGENCIES SOME
GREAT INFORMATION, RICH
INFORMATION FOR US TO GO OFF ON.
I ALSO WANT TO SAY IS THAT WE
ARE SCRATCHING THE TIP OF THIS
BIG QUESTION.
WE SEE THIS AS A WORKSHOP THAT
IS THE LARGER UMBRELLA AND WE
WILL HAVE MORE FOCUSSED EFFORTS
WORKSHOPS OR WORKING GROUPS
COMING OUT OF THIS AS WELL.
SO PLEASE STAY TUNED.
AGAIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR
YOUR PARTICIPATION AND I HOPE
YOU ALL HAVE A WONDERFUL DAY AND
HAVE ENJOYED THE WORKSHOP AS
MUCH AS I HAVE.