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TARA SCHWETZ: Good
afternoon, everyone,

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and thank you for
joining us today.

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I'm Dr. Tara Schwetz.

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I am the acting Principal
Deputy Director of the National

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Institutes of Health.

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And I'm also co-chair of
the NIH Advisory Committee

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to the Director Working
Group on re-envisioning

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the NIH supported
postdoctoral training.

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I'm really pleased to welcome
you all today to our listening

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session.

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Joining me we have
Dr. Shelley Berger,

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who's a professor at the
University of Pennsylvania.

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And she's also a co-chair
of the working group.

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We also have two additional
members of the working group

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here with us who are going to be
facilitating the session later

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on.

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And that's Dr.
Donna Ginther, who's

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a Professor of Economics at
the University of Kansas,

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and Dr. Chrystal Starbird,
who is an Assistant

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Professor at the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

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And I'd like to just begin
by setting the stage for what

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brings us all here
today, and that's

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ensuring the future of US
competitiveness and innovation

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in biomedical research.

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This obviously is of the
utmost importance to NIH.

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And in order for us
to be able to do that,

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we must promote the well
being and sustainability

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of the biomedical workforce.

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Now, our working group,
our ACD working group,

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was established to
specifically address

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growing concerns about the
postdoctoral training system

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and academic research
investigators'

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ability to recruit qualified
postdoctoral candidates

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in the future.

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And the goal of
this working group

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is to explore the status of the
postdoctoral training system,

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to identify and understand
critical factors and issues

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relating to this perceived
decline in the number

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of postdoctoral
fellows in academia,

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and then provide
recommendations to try

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to address those factors.

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And today NIH, we
the working group

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want to hear from you, the
biomedical research community,

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about all of these issues.

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Your feedback and input are
critical to this endeavor.

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So first you're going to be
hearing from a few invited

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speakers today.

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And then we're
going to open it up

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to structured
discussion from all

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of the attendees for the
remainder of the hour

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before we close.

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Now, we're going
to collect input

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using the QA function on Zoom,
which should be open now.

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You'll see it at the
bottom of your screen.

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Now, in this case QA happens to
be a little bit of a misnomer.

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Because while we may address
some clarifying questions,

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we are really trying to promote
this as a listening session.

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And we aim to listen and
hear from all of you,

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hear your comments, your input,
and importantly, your ideas

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and suggestions.

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And we ask that you please
provide either your comment

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or a note on the topic of your
comment using the QA function.

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Now, you can also opt to
have one of our facilitators

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read your comment aloud.

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And you can also then flag if
you want that to be anonymous

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or not.

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There's an option for that to be
read aloud without attribution

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in that QA function.

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So please go ahead and
start submitting your input

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into the QA box now.

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But first, before we
get into that session,

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I want to hand it
over to Shelley

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to help frame out the
focus of today's topic.

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That's job security, career
prospects, and quality of life.

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So Shelley, we'll
turn it over to you.

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SHELLEY BERGER: OK, great.

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Hope I'm not muted.

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Yeah, great.

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So I want to add my
welcome to Tara's.

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It's really great to have a
huge group of people coming on

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to these listening
sessions over--

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this is our fourth one.

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We're so excited
to have everyone.

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And I'd like to set the stage
for today's conversation,

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and I'll start with
a few data points.

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So here on slide one, sort
of our anecdotal collection

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of the many forces that
we think are driving,

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appear to be driving the
decline and the challenges

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that are experienced
by postdocs.

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These include the limited
opportunities in academia,

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the lengthening time to publish.

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New opportunities
have been rising

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in pharmaceutical
industry and biotech,

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expanding research expectations,
the many ways that we

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can extend our research, and
difficulties in work life

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balance and cost of living.

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So last Friday we discussed
salary and benefits.

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And the key topic for
today is very related.

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Today we're going to consider
job security, career prospects,

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and quality of life issues.

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All right, so on
slide two, let's begin

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by looking at some data
collected by the National

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Science Foundation on
graduating PhDs' career plans.

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And this is part of the NSF's
survey of earned doctorates.

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So here you can
see in light blue

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that an increasing percentage
of science and engineering

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doctorate recipients with
definite post graduate

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commitments in the
US are committing

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to industry or business with
a decreasing portion going

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into academia
shown in dark blue.

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So in 2021, only 26% are
committed to academia

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while more than half chose
industry or business.

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And this decline you can see is
largely over the last decade.

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In the next slide, you will
see the result of a 2020

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global survey of postdocs.

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This was conducted
by Springer Nature.

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And the results here
are quite striking.

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In the top panel, you can
see that more than half

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of the postdocs feel negatively
about their career prospects

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and only about 27%
feel positively.

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In the bottom panel, you can
see that nearly 3/4 of postdocs

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feel that their
job prospects are

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worse than those of previous
postdoc generations.

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All right, in the
next slide then, you

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can see that despite these
concerns in the top left,

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61% of postdocs said
they were satisfied

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in their current position.

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However, in the
bottom left, half

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said that their
level of satisfaction

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had worsened in the
last year, and only 26%

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said it had improved.

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So I find it very saddening
that in the top right,

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more than half of
postdocs indicated

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that they had considered leaving
science because of depression,

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anxiety, or similar issues
related to their work.

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And in the bottom
right, only 20%

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actually received help while 26%
would like to receive help but

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had not.

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Together these data demonstrate
the real and deep problems

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faced by young
researchers who are

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pursuing postdoctoral training.

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So then on the last slide,
for all of these reasons

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it's critical for
the working group

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to carefully consider the
experiences and concerns

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of postdocs and the
biomedical community broadly.

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And we're very
pleased to have you

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all here to share your input.

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We welcome all
comments and we hope

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that you will offer your
ideas and recommendations

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to ameliorate these issues.

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And with that, I'll
hand it to Tara

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to introduce our speakers before
we then move for your comments

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and recommendations.

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TARA SCHWETZ: Great.

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Thanks, Shelley.

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First I want to introduce the
initial speaker we have today,

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which is Dr. Neal Sweeney.

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He is a researcher in
developmental neuroscience

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and the President of
the UAW Local 5810,

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the union of about
11,000 postdocs

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and academic researchers
at the University

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of California and Lawrence
Berkeley National Lab.

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He was among the initial
group of postdocs

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who worked to form the union
and has served on the bargaining

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team.

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Since forming a
union, the University

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of California postdocs
and academic researchers

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have won dramatic improvements
in pay, benefits, and rights.

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So I will turn it over to you,
Neal, to provide your comments.

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NEAL SWEENEY: Thanks, Tara,
and thanks to the committee

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for inviting me.

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I listened to several of the
previous listening sessions,

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and it was great to
hear all the comments

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from the postdoctoral community.

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And I think it's clear
from those comments

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and from the initial
slides that presented

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that system is in great need
of improvement and reform.

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Low pay and benefits, lack
of basic workplace rights,

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and a failure to promote career
pathways for early career

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researchers really
threaten the sustainability

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of the research system.

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These are not new
problems, of course.

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They were recognized
long before we

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began forming our union that
you see over 10 years ago.

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But through our
union, postdocs have

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won a number of
key improvements,

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including an over 50% increase
in pay, guaranteed fully paid

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parental leave and
child care benefits,

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comprehensive health benefits
at low cost for all postdocs,

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including for fellows
and their dependents.

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And by winning better
working conditions,

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we have created a
better environment

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to foster research success.

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And I think this is a
really important point

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that better conditions
for researchers

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leads to better research.

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As today's topic is job
security and quality of life,

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I'm going to focus on a key
issue that deeply affects

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postdocs, which is the severe
imbalance in power that

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leads to frequent abuses
in the research workplace.

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And I'm going to focus on three
key areas that can be improved.

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Job security, addressing
harassment and bullying,

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and ensuring that workers
have a free and fair choice

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to decide to form a
union if they choose to.

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Job security.

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Study after study has
found that postdocs

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in more supportive
environments such as having

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more job security, more
structure, better salient

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benefits publish
significantly more papers,

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produce more patents, and
win more academic awards.

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But the problem is that the
vast majority of postdocs

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across the country
lack basic job security

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because they are
at will employees,

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meaning they could be dismissed
at any time without reason.

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Making matters worse,
postdocs are often

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appointed on short
and limited contracts.

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My union and other postdoc
unions across the country

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have won strong just
cause protections

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against unfair
termination or layoffs

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and also longer
appointment links

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so that postdocs can plan their
life on the order of years

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rather than on the order
of days and months.

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And this is especially important
for international scholars,

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as their appointments are tied
to their employer controlled

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visas.

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To meaningfully improve
the research system,

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NIH should put measures in
place to improve postdoc job

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security.

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This will in turn
improve research outcomes

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and increase retention.

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We urge the NIH to
require grantees

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to have just cause protections
in place for postdocs

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and to ensure adequate
contract lengths.

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Another important right
that we've won at UC

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is enforceable protections
against harassment and bullying

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through a grievance process
that involves third party

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arbitration.

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That same study that
Shelley cited in Nature

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found that 65% of postdocs
have experienced bullying.

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And a recent National
Academies report

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found academia to be second
only to the US military in rates

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of sexual harassment.

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These issues
disproportionately affect

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women, trans and
nonbinary researchers,

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international scholars,
and people of color.

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Forming a union for
us was a key factor

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in changing these power dynamics
that lead to abuses in power.

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Before we had a contract,
our employer, the University,

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00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,750
had unilateral control
over addressing

253
00:11:42,750 --> 00:11:44,730
harassment and bullying issues.

254
00:11:44,730 --> 00:11:46,470
And the vast majority
of cases were not

255
00:11:46,470 --> 00:11:50,420
resolved satisfactorily
for postdocs.

256
00:11:50,420 --> 00:11:53,600
With a grievance
process where postdocs

257
00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:55,820
have an equal say
with the employer,

258
00:11:55,820 --> 00:11:57,500
grievances over
harassment and bullying

259
00:11:57,500 --> 00:11:59,720
have led to justice
for survivors

260
00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,030
in favorable resolutions
where postdocs

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00:12:02,030 --> 00:12:05,250
can work in a safe and
supportive environment.

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00:12:05,250 --> 00:12:07,760
So my second
recommendation is therefore

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00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,370
to urge the NIH to require
that grantees have a grievance

264
00:12:10,370 --> 00:12:12,920
process with a neutral
third party arbitrator

265
00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:15,230
to ensure protections against
harassment and bullying

266
00:12:15,230 --> 00:12:17,160
are upheld for everyone.

267
00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,150
And finally, as I hope I've made
clear throughout my comments,

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00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:22,730
in my view, the main way
to address power imbalance

269
00:12:22,730 --> 00:12:24,770
in research workplaces
is by forming

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00:12:24,770 --> 00:12:27,800
unions in which postdocs
themselves have agency

271
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:29,705
to address these problems.

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00:12:29,705 --> 00:12:31,580
Unions have the power
to collectively bargain

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00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:34,130
for benefits and
working conditions,

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00:12:34,130 --> 00:12:37,460
to establish industry
standards, and enforce contracts

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00:12:37,460 --> 00:12:40,280
and ensure that the
standards that are negotiated

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00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:44,177
are implemented so that we
can create equity at work.

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00:12:44,177 --> 00:12:46,760
The best way to ensure workers
get a free and fair opportunity

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00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,300
to form unions, and my third
recommendation for the NIH,

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00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:52,698
is to require grantees
to remain neutral

280
00:12:52,698 --> 00:12:54,740
when workers are deciding
to form a union so they

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00:12:54,740 --> 00:12:58,472
can make their choice free
from intimidation or fear.

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00:12:58,472 --> 00:12:59,930
I really appreciate
the opportunity

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00:12:59,930 --> 00:13:01,360
to discuss these issues.

284
00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:03,110
And I look forward to
future conversations

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00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:05,690
about how workers and
federal agencies like NIH

286
00:13:05,690 --> 00:13:07,310
can collaborate on
improving working

287
00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:10,400
conditions and the quality
of research in the US.

288
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:13,287
If any postdocs in the
session or other researchers

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00:13:13,287 --> 00:13:14,870
have questions for
me about how unions

290
00:13:14,870 --> 00:13:17,180
can improve their
research workplace,

291
00:13:17,180 --> 00:13:23,630
you can get in touch with
me at president@uaw5810.org.

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00:13:23,630 --> 00:13:27,140
That's president@uaw5810.org.

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00:13:27,140 --> 00:13:29,140
Thanks very much.

294
00:13:29,140 --> 00:13:31,760
TARA SCHWETZ: Thanks
so much, Neal.

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00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,630
Now we're going to turn over
to our next speaker, who

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00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:39,110
is Stevie Eberle.

297
00:13:39,110 --> 00:13:42,950
They are the executive
director of BioSci Careers

298
00:13:42,950 --> 00:13:45,710
at Stanford University
where they help trainees

299
00:13:45,710 --> 00:13:49,250
with all aspects of career
and professional development.

300
00:13:49,250 --> 00:13:51,770
And they are especially
interested in issues of gender

301
00:13:51,770 --> 00:13:53,480
and diversity in the workplace.

302
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:58,820
They hold an M.Ed in counseling
and have 20 plus years

303
00:13:58,820 --> 00:14:01,430
of experience
developing curricula

304
00:14:01,430 --> 00:14:03,410
and resources for
all biosciences

305
00:14:03,410 --> 00:14:07,340
trainees to explore and define
a path toward their own careers

306
00:14:07,340 --> 00:14:08,750
of choice.

307
00:14:08,750 --> 00:14:12,812
With that, I will turn
it over to Stevie.

308
00:14:12,812 --> 00:14:14,270
STEVIE EBERLE:
Thank you very much.

309
00:14:14,270 --> 00:14:18,080
Neal, I have to agree with
you that one of the big issues

310
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,770
is certainly an
imbalance of power.

311
00:14:21,770 --> 00:14:23,520
We were asked to
answer three questions.

312
00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,540
The first was outlining
challenges faced by postdocs.

313
00:14:26,540 --> 00:14:29,270
We outlined a lot of
those earlier, Shelley.

314
00:14:29,270 --> 00:14:32,870
I would say, number one,
it's not necessarily bad

315
00:14:32,870 --> 00:14:36,890
that we're losing postdocs
in that we certainly have

316
00:14:36,890 --> 00:14:38,670
more career options available.

317
00:14:38,670 --> 00:14:40,760
There's more self
awareness of themselves

318
00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,130
and empowerment options now.

319
00:14:43,130 --> 00:14:46,880
That being said, academia
is not what it theoretically

320
00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:48,650
was or should be.

321
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:52,700
We're losing the security of
tenure, certainly funding.

322
00:14:52,700 --> 00:14:55,080
I would also add to what
Shelley said earlier,

323
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,840
which I think
academia in general

324
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,020
is founded on sexism,
heterosexism, racism, ableism,

325
00:15:00,020 --> 00:15:03,410
classism, ethnocentrism,
and a hierarchical system

326
00:15:03,410 --> 00:15:05,480
where universities
receive more money

327
00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,670
and notoriety than others.

328
00:15:08,670 --> 00:15:11,360
The postdoc is not what it
used to be or should be.

329
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:12,710
It takes much longer now.

330
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:13,670
It's less promising.

331
00:15:13,670 --> 00:15:14,900
It's not as worth it.

332
00:15:14,900 --> 00:15:16,370
And it's not just training.

333
00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:20,090
It is a job and should
be treated as such.

334
00:15:20,090 --> 00:15:25,610
The one thing where I would say,
Neal, I both agree and curious

335
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:28,070
about is I'm actually very
deeply concerned that we

336
00:15:28,070 --> 00:15:30,320
actually have to
have unions in order

337
00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,675
to find equal pay and
equity across the board.

338
00:15:34,675 --> 00:15:36,050
Then finally, I
would say there's

339
00:15:36,050 --> 00:15:38,690
a bottleneck of postdocs staying
when they don't know what else

340
00:15:38,690 --> 00:15:41,810
to do or can't find anything
else, which does take up spots

341
00:15:41,810 --> 00:15:44,510
over time and also adds
to the length of time

342
00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:47,840
that a person finds
themselves and moves

343
00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:49,670
into where they want to go.

344
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:52,040
The second question
we were to answer

345
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,140
is highlighting points
for consideration

346
00:15:54,140 --> 00:15:56,030
for this working group.

347
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:58,910
I would say I would highlight
the concept of accountability

348
00:15:58,910 --> 00:16:03,080
overall, mentoring, and
the accountability of PIs.

349
00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:06,410
I would like us to look at
the accountability of PIs

350
00:16:06,410 --> 00:16:09,800
in giving and receiving feedback
and the professional treatment

351
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:10,820
of postdocs.

352
00:16:10,820 --> 00:16:13,670
How effective are
IDPs now that they've

353
00:16:13,670 --> 00:16:15,740
been in place for a while now?

354
00:16:15,740 --> 00:16:19,692
How effective is the PI as
everything plus mentor model

355
00:16:19,692 --> 00:16:21,650
given the intensity of
teaching, running a lab,

356
00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:23,780
and writing grants?

357
00:16:23,780 --> 00:16:26,090
Secondly, I would say
diversity beyond lip service.

358
00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:29,510
We need to actually look at what
is being done in the diversity

359
00:16:29,510 --> 00:16:32,420
space and look at the
role of implicit bias

360
00:16:32,420 --> 00:16:34,290
in preventing change.

361
00:16:34,290 --> 00:16:37,190
Third, I'd like to look at
the time to degree and time

362
00:16:37,190 --> 00:16:41,150
to completion factors in
traditional training models

363
00:16:41,150 --> 00:16:46,250
and what impacts these and
maybe set standards for those.

364
00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:49,190
Next I'd like to look
at the role of tenure

365
00:16:49,190 --> 00:16:51,500
and academic hierarchy
in perpetuating

366
00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:53,270
less than ideal accountability.

367
00:16:53,270 --> 00:16:55,820
I do not oppose removing
tenure, because we

368
00:16:55,820 --> 00:16:58,310
do need to protect
those teaching CRT,

369
00:16:58,310 --> 00:17:01,020
for example, now more than ever.

370
00:17:01,020 --> 00:17:03,470
But how do we keep this
benefit while holding faculty

371
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:05,060
and administrators accountable?

372
00:17:05,060 --> 00:17:08,540
How does this hierarchy of
faculty only deans and PhD

373
00:17:08,540 --> 00:17:11,210
preferred directors
center faculty interests

374
00:17:11,210 --> 00:17:14,089
over those of postdocs
and students in general?

375
00:17:14,089 --> 00:17:16,260
And the PI role is complex.

376
00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:19,430
So how do we streamline
it for better success?

377
00:17:19,430 --> 00:17:23,119
Next we need to look at postdoc
benefits suited to the job,

378
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,619
because the postdoc is a job.

379
00:17:25,619 --> 00:17:27,440
And then finally, the
role of postdoctoral

380
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,948
training in
non-academic careers.

381
00:17:29,948 --> 00:17:31,490
If we're wanting to
increase, we need

382
00:17:31,490 --> 00:17:36,230
to acknowledge that this
training is valued elsewhere.

383
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:38,030
In terms of my
recommendations, I now

384
00:17:38,030 --> 00:17:40,940
have 1 minute and
42 seconds, we need

385
00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:43,080
to look at new
models of academia.

386
00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,650
So HR related support.

387
00:17:45,650 --> 00:17:48,170
Most jobs have HR
related support

388
00:17:48,170 --> 00:17:50,690
that help in giving and
receiving feedback, identifying

389
00:17:50,690 --> 00:17:52,220
and interviewing
candidates, setting

390
00:17:52,220 --> 00:17:53,575
expectations, et cetera.

391
00:17:53,575 --> 00:17:56,630
We need to pair academic and
non-academic staff and dean

392
00:17:56,630 --> 00:17:58,460
or equivalent roles
to center the training

393
00:17:58,460 --> 00:18:02,960
experience, integrating academic
advising with career centers

394
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,080
to provide early
directed pathways,

395
00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,230
and relieve some of these duties
from the complex faculty job

396
00:18:09,230 --> 00:18:11,990
and provide an informed,
unbiased sounding board

397
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:16,100
and reviewer of progress.

398
00:18:16,100 --> 00:18:18,500
Revamp tenure to
keep protections

399
00:18:18,500 --> 00:18:21,532
of controversial work while at
the same time holding faculty

400
00:18:21,532 --> 00:18:23,990
accountable for the treatment
and success of their trainees

401
00:18:23,990 --> 00:18:25,250
and students.

402
00:18:25,250 --> 00:18:27,830
Creating clear expectations
and standards for time

403
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:31,160
to completion of postdocs and
for proper treatment in labs,

404
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:34,340
monitoring repeat offenders
and holding them accountable.

405
00:18:34,340 --> 00:18:37,070
A way for postdocs to
anonymously report concerns

406
00:18:37,070 --> 00:18:41,840
to NIH and it's not just up
to faculty to fund postdocs.

407
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,620
Lastly, creating postdoctoral
pathways and career clarity,

408
00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:48,230
which looks like separate
non-academic options

409
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:48,870
of postdocs.

410
00:18:48,870 --> 00:18:51,770
So separating postdocs
into two different paths.

411
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:55,070
By allowing that candor
that some postdocs may

412
00:18:55,070 --> 00:18:57,530
go into other fields
and providing education

413
00:18:57,530 --> 00:18:59,480
and preparation for
these fields allows

414
00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:01,910
for completion of
strong academic science

415
00:19:01,910 --> 00:19:04,910
but on a short term,
well defined basis.

416
00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:06,590
And very early education.

417
00:19:06,590 --> 00:19:08,600
Understanding as
early as undergrad

418
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,030
what science is, what
the career options are,

419
00:19:11,030 --> 00:19:14,260
how to choose grad school and
postdocs, and the implications

420
00:19:14,260 --> 00:19:16,660
of that choice.

421
00:19:16,660 --> 00:19:17,440
Thank you.

422
00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:22,520


423
00:19:22,520 --> 00:19:25,070
TARA SCHWETZ: Thank
you so much, Stevie.

424
00:19:25,070 --> 00:19:28,670
Our final speaker for the
day will be Dr. Dawn Bonnell,

425
00:19:28,670 --> 00:19:32,570
who is the Senior Vice Provost
for Research at the University

426
00:19:32,570 --> 00:19:34,040
of Pennsylvania.

427
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,970
In this capacity, Dr. Bonnell
shapes policy and advances

428
00:19:37,970 --> 00:19:40,790
administrative initiatives
for the University's research

429
00:19:40,790 --> 00:19:43,340
enterprise, plays
a leadership role

430
00:19:43,340 --> 00:19:45,230
in strategic planning
for research,

431
00:19:45,230 --> 00:19:48,740
and administers the development
of new research facilities.

432
00:19:48,740 --> 00:19:50,763
So with that, I will turn
it over to you, Dawn.

433
00:19:50,763 --> 00:19:51,930
DAWN BONNELL: Great, thanks.

434
00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:53,972
Well, first of all, thank
you for the opportunity

435
00:19:53,972 --> 00:19:55,170
to be in this discussion.

436
00:19:55,170 --> 00:19:57,230
This is an important
set of issues for us

437
00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:58,880
to be considering.

438
00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:00,500
And there's lots to talk about.

439
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:02,450
I have three
comments, and I think

440
00:20:02,450 --> 00:20:05,210
we'll see that there's overlap
on some of these themes, which

441
00:20:05,210 --> 00:20:07,830
isn't really surprising.

442
00:20:07,830 --> 00:20:10,670
So let me start first with
my first comment about career

443
00:20:10,670 --> 00:20:11,900
pathways.

444
00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:14,750
As was shown in
the chart earlier

445
00:20:14,750 --> 00:20:17,090
on about graduate
students, it's also true

446
00:20:17,090 --> 00:20:19,580
and has been referred
to that postdocs

447
00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:23,900
take positions in a wide
variety of job descriptions

448
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:27,500
in academics, in national
labs, in large corporations,

449
00:20:27,500 --> 00:20:30,740
in government, in business,
in startup companies.

450
00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:32,750
There's a wide variation.

451
00:20:32,750 --> 00:20:37,130
And while there are differences
in the ratios of these outcomes

452
00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:39,800
between disciplines and
between institutions,

453
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:43,100
let's say, the
majority of them do not

454
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:45,020
end up being faculty
members, do not

455
00:20:45,020 --> 00:20:47,780
end up in academic roles
across the country.

456
00:20:47,780 --> 00:20:52,910
And yet many are trained
within universities.

457
00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:54,980
So our universities
across the country

458
00:20:54,980 --> 00:20:57,780
have understood the need for
professional development.

459
00:20:57,780 --> 00:21:01,490
And I think it's fair to say
that most universities have

460
00:21:01,490 --> 00:21:04,850
suites of programs that employ--

461
00:21:04,850 --> 00:21:07,550
suites of programs for
professional development,

462
00:21:07,550 --> 00:21:09,350
employ individual
development plans

463
00:21:09,350 --> 00:21:11,480
and so forth, and try
to have frameworks

464
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:17,240
around effective professional
development for postdocs.

465
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,400
But I think there is
an opportunity now

466
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,790
to consider how to provide
a more balanced approach

467
00:21:22,790 --> 00:21:26,150
to professional
development more aligned

468
00:21:26,150 --> 00:21:29,390
with the portfolio of
jobs that they end up

469
00:21:29,390 --> 00:21:32,690
taking with much more
aggressive exposure

470
00:21:32,690 --> 00:21:36,380
to skill sets that match
those opportunities.

471
00:21:36,380 --> 00:21:39,740
I was thinking that perhaps
those of us in STEM fields

472
00:21:39,740 --> 00:21:41,930
might take a lesson
from law or business

473
00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:44,930
who provide postdocs
some experience tailored

474
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:48,590
to specific job
goals, for example.

475
00:21:48,590 --> 00:21:52,520
I could envision numbers
of ways to do this.

476
00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,430
For internships and startups
to think about research

477
00:21:55,430 --> 00:21:58,760
translation, data analytics
way beyond their research

478
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:01,170
that could propel them
into different directions.

479
00:22:01,170 --> 00:22:04,100
So there are a lot of
ways to think about how

480
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,667
we might be able to do that.

481
00:22:06,667 --> 00:22:08,750
If we're doing that, are
we doing that well enough

482
00:22:08,750 --> 00:22:10,820
and should be expand it?

483
00:22:10,820 --> 00:22:14,630
And at this time,
this moment right now

484
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:17,540
with the multiple large
scale national programs

485
00:22:17,540 --> 00:22:20,630
directed at practical workforce
development for the next four

486
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:23,810
or five years, this might
be a good opportunity for us

487
00:22:23,810 --> 00:22:26,090
to partner with some
of those programs

488
00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:29,810
and enhance the way that
we're developing the skill

489
00:22:29,810 --> 00:22:35,000
sets for our postdocs for the
jobs that they actually have.

490
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,380
The second comment that I have,
and again, this was mentioned,

491
00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:44,420
is the long timelines
for academic positions.

492
00:22:44,420 --> 00:22:47,780
We should work to
have most postdocs

493
00:22:47,780 --> 00:22:49,520
ready for their next
stage even if it's

494
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,430
an academic stage in
five years or less.

495
00:22:52,430 --> 00:22:54,470
I mean, it just shouldn't
take longer than

496
00:22:54,470 --> 00:22:57,260
that if we're doing our job.

497
00:22:57,260 --> 00:22:59,540
To get this to
happen, part of this

498
00:22:59,540 --> 00:23:03,470
would require evolving a culture
of escalating expectations

499
00:23:03,470 --> 00:23:04,940
for academic positions.

500
00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:07,400
Which just it leads to the
circle of longer and longer

501
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,910
time to reach that point where
people think that they're

502
00:23:10,910 --> 00:23:13,850
prepared then to go in.

503
00:23:13,850 --> 00:23:15,650
There are things
we can think about.

504
00:23:15,650 --> 00:23:19,940
We could explore new pathways
to academic positions.

505
00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:22,910
Perhaps, for example,
a track for junior

506
00:23:22,910 --> 00:23:25,910
postdocs to have pre-faculty
positions with a path

507
00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:28,370
to tenure.

508
00:23:28,370 --> 00:23:31,230
It's possible to think about
doing some of these things.

509
00:23:31,230 --> 00:23:33,620
And even though it would
require a culture change,

510
00:23:33,620 --> 00:23:38,070
if the community sees value
in that, we could get it done.

511
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:40,040
I think as an
example, the K grants

512
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,110
aim to do this in some frame.

513
00:23:42,110 --> 00:23:45,080
But actually, they don't
end up having the mentorship

514
00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:46,910
of a department chair
and the department

515
00:23:46,910 --> 00:23:49,580
that's interested in them
being successful in that role.

516
00:23:49,580 --> 00:23:52,280
So I know that there
are discussions

517
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,260
of these sorts
going on, and I hope

518
00:23:54,260 --> 00:23:56,930
that those will expand
and ultimately provide

519
00:23:56,930 --> 00:24:02,090
some paths that lead to
success in that area and also

520
00:24:02,090 --> 00:24:05,240
some strategies that allow
us to get people there

521
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:09,890
in fewer years of time.

522
00:24:09,890 --> 00:24:11,930
And the third and last
comment I want to make

523
00:24:11,930 --> 00:24:15,050
is a more sort of higher
level strategy issue

524
00:24:15,050 --> 00:24:19,400
about the future
of the workforce.

525
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,200
The very important
issue of compensation

526
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:24,770
was addressed in one of the
earlier sessions that you had.

527
00:24:24,770 --> 00:24:27,830
And it's all great to
see changes being made,

528
00:24:27,830 --> 00:24:31,550
and it's clear that we have
to be supporting postdocs

529
00:24:31,550 --> 00:24:32,390
appropriately.

530
00:24:32,390 --> 00:24:35,510
I mean, that's just what
we need to be doing.

531
00:24:35,510 --> 00:24:37,400
There is, however,
and it was kind of

532
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,510
hinted at, a concern about
some unintended consequences.

533
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:44,270
Unless we think about how
the federal agency support

534
00:24:44,270 --> 00:24:49,640
the postdocs in
four to five years,

535
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,250
the size of the
postdoc workforce

536
00:24:52,250 --> 00:24:54,740
could substantially
decline if we

537
00:24:54,740 --> 00:24:58,160
don't understand that support.

538
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,590
The modular grant
for several agencies

539
00:25:00,590 --> 00:25:01,940
hasn't changed in decades.

540
00:25:01,940 --> 00:25:05,810
And many of the postdocs are
supported on those grants.

541
00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:08,390
Now, obviously NIH
and the other agencies

542
00:25:08,390 --> 00:25:10,910
have a large portfolio
of programs and lots

543
00:25:10,910 --> 00:25:12,860
of ways to be able
to think about this.

544
00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:14,390
But I think it's
a good time for us

545
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:17,360
to assess how those
mechanisms are working

546
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:19,790
and determine whether
there are different support

547
00:25:19,790 --> 00:25:25,160
mechanisms or additional
support mechanisms that

548
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,080
would be warranted.

549
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,562
And it could be
internally at NIH

550
00:25:28,562 --> 00:25:30,020
they have been
doing those studies.

551
00:25:30,020 --> 00:25:31,730
I haven't seen the
outcomes of them.

552
00:25:31,730 --> 00:25:34,190
But this is just
not the time that we

553
00:25:34,190 --> 00:25:37,880
want to have this highly
technical, relevant,

554
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,200
and extremely valuable workforce
decline over the next five

555
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:43,560
or six years.

556
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,920
So thank you for the
opportunity to speak,

557
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,420
and I really look
forward to hearing

558
00:25:47,420 --> 00:25:50,540
what the discussion contains.

559
00:25:50,540 --> 00:25:53,340


560
00:25:53,340 --> 00:25:55,440
TARA SCHWETZ: Thank you
so much, Dawn, and again,

561
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,020
to all of our
speakers for sharing

562
00:25:58,020 --> 00:26:00,060
your insightful comments
and perspectives.

563
00:26:00,060 --> 00:26:03,870
And really appreciate the
suggestions that you offered.

564
00:26:03,870 --> 00:26:07,980
We now want to open the floor
to all of your comments.

565
00:26:07,980 --> 00:26:12,090
We have 400 or so people
online and really want

566
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:13,440
to hear from you.

567
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,640
And as noted at the
beginning of the meeting,

568
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,000
and as I see many of
you are already doing,

569
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,780
we encourage you to share your
input using the QA function.

570
00:26:21,780 --> 00:26:25,680
You may provide your comment
directly or the general topic

571
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,360
of your comment.

572
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:31,320
The facilitators will then
invite specific participants

573
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,575
by name to share their thoughts.

574
00:26:33,575 --> 00:26:34,950
And once you're
invited, the host

575
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:38,730
will enable that person
to unmute and then share

576
00:26:38,730 --> 00:26:40,560
their comment out loud.

577
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,660
And we fully
anticipate that we're

578
00:26:42,660 --> 00:26:45,670
going to have more comments
than we can address today.

579
00:26:45,670 --> 00:26:47,820
So apologies in
advance for that.

580
00:26:47,820 --> 00:26:50,730
And we ask that each
participant limit their comments

581
00:26:50,730 --> 00:26:54,300
to about one to two minutes so
that we can hear from as many

582
00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:56,530
of you as possible.

583
00:26:56,530 --> 00:26:59,250
If you wish for the facilitators
to read your comment out

584
00:26:59,250 --> 00:27:02,430
loud, please note that
in the QA function

585
00:27:02,430 --> 00:27:05,250
and they'll be pleased to do so.

586
00:27:05,250 --> 00:27:08,830
Alternatively, if you prefer
to comment anonymously,

587
00:27:08,830 --> 00:27:12,300
please use the anonymous option
that's in the QA function

588
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:14,400
and one of the facilitators
will read it out

589
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,210
loud without attribution.

590
00:27:16,210 --> 00:27:16,710
All right.

591
00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:19,500
With that, I will now
turn it over to Chrystal

592
00:27:19,500 --> 00:27:22,130
to walk through
the first comment.

593
00:27:22,130 --> 00:27:23,630
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Hello, everybody.

594
00:27:23,630 --> 00:27:25,670
I am glad to be here today.

595
00:27:25,670 --> 00:27:27,890
Before I read the first
comment, which is anonymous,

596
00:27:27,890 --> 00:27:31,150
so I'm going to read this
one, I just two quick notes.

597
00:27:31,150 --> 00:27:34,180
We will do our absolute best to
pronounce your names correctly.

598
00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:35,788
If we don't, I apologize.

599
00:27:35,788 --> 00:27:37,330
Please feel free to
correct us, but I

600
00:27:37,330 --> 00:27:39,110
promise we'll do our best.

601
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:41,680
And then the other thing is
this is a listening session.

602
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,370
So we'll try to comment
afterwards less and try

603
00:27:45,370 --> 00:27:47,740
to really give an opportunity
to listen to all of you.

604
00:27:47,740 --> 00:27:51,820
But I promise, as Tara has
said, that the committee

605
00:27:51,820 --> 00:27:54,730
will be aware of and
receive all the comments

606
00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:57,290
and have them as
discussion points.

607
00:27:57,290 --> 00:27:57,790
All right.

608
00:27:57,790 --> 00:28:01,630
So the first comment
is anonymous.

609
00:28:01,630 --> 00:28:04,450
So this comment is about
alternative sources

610
00:28:04,450 --> 00:28:05,035
for funding.

611
00:28:05,035 --> 00:28:10,330


612
00:28:10,330 --> 00:28:13,270
And it says if
postdoctoral researchers

613
00:28:13,270 --> 00:28:16,720
play a vital role in
scientific research in the US,

614
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,020
create a permanent workforce
of academic researchers

615
00:28:20,020 --> 00:28:21,220
at this level.

616
00:28:21,220 --> 00:28:23,140
The problem, of
course, is money.

617
00:28:23,140 --> 00:28:24,940
Where will this money come from?

618
00:28:24,940 --> 00:28:28,330
The obvious answer is to look
at the institutions themselves.

619
00:28:28,330 --> 00:28:31,690
In the last 25 years,
R1 universities

620
00:28:31,690 --> 00:28:36,010
have seen administration grow
at vastly disproportionate rates

621
00:28:36,010 --> 00:28:38,170
to the number of
full time faculty.

622
00:28:38,170 --> 00:28:41,350
The NIH should work with other
government funding agencies

623
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:44,350
to unilaterally
require institutions

624
00:28:44,350 --> 00:28:49,420
provide at least 50% to 75%
of base salary for full time

625
00:28:49,420 --> 00:28:51,550
academic researchers
and treat them

626
00:28:51,550 --> 00:28:53,380
as employees with benefits.

627
00:28:53,380 --> 00:28:57,790
Or alternatively, to hire
tenure track faculty at a rate

628
00:28:57,790 --> 00:29:01,180
commensurate with the relative
growth in administration

629
00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:02,920
in these institutions.

630
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,170
Funding mandates
regulating the number

631
00:29:05,170 --> 00:29:08,620
of graduate students versus
permanent academic researchers

632
00:29:08,620 --> 00:29:10,960
also need to be part
of the equation.

633
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,890
R1 universities
enormously benefit

634
00:29:14,890 --> 00:29:17,260
from the labor of
postdoctoral researchers

635
00:29:17,260 --> 00:29:19,940
and they need to contribute
their fair share.

636
00:29:19,940 --> 00:29:22,330
Thank you for that
comment, which I think

637
00:29:22,330 --> 00:29:24,402
is an important one.

638
00:29:24,402 --> 00:29:25,860
DONNA GINTHER:
Thank you, Chrystal.

639
00:29:25,860 --> 00:29:28,470
I'm going to read another
anonymous comment.

640
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:32,280
I'm wondering how frequently
T32s twos are initially

641
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:34,530
proposed to fund postdocs.

642
00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:37,800
In my experience, the
postdoc support from T32s

643
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,920
is often used to help
PhD students transition

644
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,220
from their defense to their next
step while being still employed

645
00:29:44,220 --> 00:29:46,140
at the same institution.

646
00:29:46,140 --> 00:29:51,120
Has there been any suggestion to
re-envision a T32 type funding

647
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,730
mechanism specifically
for postdocs

648
00:29:53,730 --> 00:29:56,220
that can focus on
department wide recruitment

649
00:29:56,220 --> 00:29:58,230
of a cohort of postdocs?

650
00:29:58,230 --> 00:30:02,070
Hiring postdocs as a cohort
could be really valuable.

651
00:30:02,070 --> 00:30:04,740
As a postdoc, I started
around the same time

652
00:30:04,740 --> 00:30:07,920
as three other brand new
postdocs in my department.

653
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,440
That has helped
me have a support

654
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,110
system of peers in all
aspects of my early career.

655
00:30:14,110 --> 00:30:17,880
I envision these
postdoc T32s could also

656
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,310
include funding for
professional development

657
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:22,440
aside from just
visiting conferences.

658
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,810
Perhaps something like
an organized program

659
00:30:24,810 --> 00:30:28,470
for preparing for the job market
with a mentoring committee

660
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:30,870
funds, to send postdocs
to give seminars

661
00:30:30,870 --> 00:30:34,380
at hiring institutions, and
grant writing workshops,

662
00:30:34,380 --> 00:30:35,520
for example.

663
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,370
We really appreciate
this comment

664
00:30:38,370 --> 00:30:41,720
and we'll take it back
to the working group.

665
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:43,490
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Absolutely.

666
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:46,670
The next comment is
on alternative careers

667
00:30:46,670 --> 00:30:49,370
and comes from
Rachel Presskreicher.

668
00:30:49,370 --> 00:30:54,680
Rachel, would you be willing to
unmute and share your thoughts?

669
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,070
AUDIENCE: Yes, can you hear me?

670
00:30:56,070 --> 00:30:57,590
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Yes.

671
00:30:57,590 --> 00:31:01,850
AUDIENCE: So I am a
health policy trained PhD,

672
00:31:01,850 --> 00:31:05,810
and I feel like a lot of
the alternative career

673
00:31:05,810 --> 00:31:08,570
options and information
are so targeted

674
00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:13,190
to biomedical sciences,
pharmaceutical, basic science,

675
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:16,550
trained researchers,
and [INAUDIBLE]

676
00:31:16,550 --> 00:31:19,040
they're as a second
afterthought.

677
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:20,690
Like oh, if you're
a social scientist,

678
00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:22,700
here's some options for you.

679
00:31:22,700 --> 00:31:26,180
And in the policy world, it's
easy to look at government

680
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:26,940
or think tanks.

681
00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:28,650
But I think there's
a lot of other peers

682
00:31:28,650 --> 00:31:32,360
I've had who feel like
there's not a place for them

683
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:35,540
and they don't want to
be in biotech or pharma.

684
00:31:35,540 --> 00:31:37,910
They want to be in
services research,

685
00:31:37,910 --> 00:31:41,990
but they're not sure what that
looks like outside of academia.

686
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:45,200
And my only other quick thought
was about the K mechanisms

687
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:47,030
where it feels like--

688
00:31:47,030 --> 00:31:49,490
I've been on T32, so
this may be different

689
00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:51,350
because I've been
a, quote, "trainee."

690
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:54,140
But it feels constantly
the idea is, well, you

691
00:31:54,140 --> 00:31:56,960
must need more training and
more training and more training.

692
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,930
And it's hard, because
there's this idea that

693
00:31:59,930 --> 00:32:04,280
to get an academic position,
you need a K to bring money

694
00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:06,680
in certain fields.

695
00:32:06,680 --> 00:32:08,810
K99/R00.

696
00:32:08,810 --> 00:32:10,910
But I don't know
that I feel like I

697
00:32:10,910 --> 00:32:14,120
need a ton more training because
I've had so much training.

698
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,490
And so there's this
kind of argument like,

699
00:32:16,490 --> 00:32:20,330
I don't need all these mentors
and training opportunities

700
00:32:20,330 --> 00:32:21,290
for learning.

701
00:32:21,290 --> 00:32:23,900
I need it for how do I
become a faculty member?

702
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,990
And that's not
really what is set up

703
00:32:26,990 --> 00:32:28,820
and it feels like
departments really

704
00:32:28,820 --> 00:32:33,350
rely on you to bring money in
order to justify hiring you.

705
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:36,440
But that's also not
really allowed for things.

706
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,380
You can't apply for a K01
until you're a faculty member.

707
00:32:39,380 --> 00:32:40,880
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Yeah, absolutely.

708
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,150
Thank you for
sharing that comment.

709
00:32:44,150 --> 00:32:45,110
DONNA GINTHER: OK.

710
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:48,140
We have another comment on
where additional money might

711
00:32:48,140 --> 00:32:49,923
come from from Chris Smith.

712
00:32:49,923 --> 00:32:52,340
AUDIENCE: So, yeah, I manage
an office of postdoc affairs.

713
00:32:52,340 --> 00:32:54,410
So I'm not a faculty
or a postdoc,

714
00:32:54,410 --> 00:32:56,120
even though I used
to be a postdoc.

715
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,980
And I think Dr. Bonnell
mentioned this point,

716
00:32:58,980 --> 00:33:01,940
but the fact that the NIH
modular budget hasn't increased

717
00:33:01,940 --> 00:33:09,200
in 20 plus years and faculty
are being sort of pushed

718
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,320
by their institutions to
increase salary and benefits

719
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,840
for their postdocs without
sort of other sources of funds.

720
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,570
And so they're trying
to make their NIH grants

721
00:33:17,570 --> 00:33:21,230
stretch further with less
and less buying power,

722
00:33:21,230 --> 00:33:24,860
essentially, as inflation
has eroded their budgets.

723
00:33:24,860 --> 00:33:28,280
And I think what's happening
in the UC system is great.

724
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,490
But from what I've
read in the news,

725
00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:35,487
there is no central source of
funds to cover those increases.

726
00:33:35,487 --> 00:33:37,070
So they're essentially
telling faculty

727
00:33:37,070 --> 00:33:38,400
you need to find the funds.

728
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,910
And so it kind of comes
back to a lot of pressure

729
00:33:40,910 --> 00:33:44,030
on faculty, who I don't think
are really the enemy here.

730
00:33:44,030 --> 00:33:46,190
The system needs
to better provide

731
00:33:46,190 --> 00:33:49,790
resources to help them pay
their postdocs living wages

732
00:33:49,790 --> 00:33:51,410
and support their benefits.

733
00:33:51,410 --> 00:33:52,910
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Yeah, absolutely.

734
00:33:52,910 --> 00:33:55,490
Thank you for that comment.

735
00:33:55,490 --> 00:33:57,620
The next comment
is on mentoring.

736
00:33:57,620 --> 00:33:59,990
This comes from Sarah Kathleen.

737
00:33:59,990 --> 00:34:02,270
So the comment
was, is there a way

738
00:34:02,270 --> 00:34:06,860
to implement an evaluation
system for mentors of postdocs?

739
00:34:06,860 --> 00:34:09,260
A huge reason I am
no longer planning

740
00:34:09,260 --> 00:34:11,570
on becoming an
independent investigator

741
00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:14,179
is lack of support
from my mentor.

742
00:34:14,179 --> 00:34:17,090
He has a number of R01s
and is well funded,

743
00:34:17,090 --> 00:34:22,350
but there is no oversight on
his actual mentoring activities.

744
00:34:22,350 --> 00:34:25,489
Thank you for sharing
that comments, Sarah.

745
00:34:25,489 --> 00:34:27,650
DONNA GINTHER: Yes, thank you.

746
00:34:27,650 --> 00:34:32,120
This next comment is on postdoc
associations and offices.

747
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:35,400
Nicole Maphis, would
you please unmute?

748
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,989
AUDIENCE: Yes, hi,
can you hear me?

749
00:34:36,989 --> 00:34:38,239
DONNA GINTHER: Yes, thank you.

750
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:38,929
AUDIENCE: Hi.

751
00:34:38,929 --> 00:34:41,120
So at my academic
institution, there

752
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,989
has never been a postdoctoral
association or a postdoc office

753
00:34:44,989 --> 00:34:47,639
to aid postdocs with
a variety of issues,

754
00:34:47,639 --> 00:34:51,230
including problems with
mentors and getting

755
00:34:51,230 --> 00:34:53,750
the necessary professional
development that we so

756
00:34:53,750 --> 00:34:56,070
crave in our training.

757
00:34:56,070 --> 00:34:59,540
We are currently forming
a postdoc association,

758
00:34:59,540 --> 00:35:01,610
but we've run into a
number of troubles,

759
00:35:01,610 --> 00:35:03,950
including finding
financial support

760
00:35:03,950 --> 00:35:05,750
to host events
that could support

761
00:35:05,750 --> 00:35:09,020
professional development and
provide networking and job

762
00:35:09,020 --> 00:35:11,810
opportunities as well
as additional mentorship

763
00:35:11,810 --> 00:35:14,660
opportunities and
mentoring opportunities.

764
00:35:14,660 --> 00:35:16,850
And what we're
wondering is if is

765
00:35:16,850 --> 00:35:19,580
some of this change can
happen at the national level

766
00:35:19,580 --> 00:35:22,700
or within that modular NIH
budget, which hasn't changed in

767
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,060
forever, in order to provide
these academic institutions

768
00:35:26,060 --> 00:35:30,320
with finances to support this,
to support funding and creating

769
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,950
postdoc offices and allowing
us to do this work so we

770
00:35:33,950 --> 00:35:35,510
can actually get training.

771
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:38,080


772
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,170
I'm fortunate in that I
am [INAUDIBLE] fellow,

773
00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:44,170
so I am receiving a lot
of mentorship training.

774
00:35:44,170 --> 00:35:47,680
I'm taking a lot of classes that
are being funded and supported

775
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:48,460
by.

776
00:35:48,460 --> 00:35:51,580
But unfortunately, a lot of
my colleagues who are postdocs

777
00:35:51,580 --> 00:35:55,090
here don't receive
the same treatment.

778
00:35:55,090 --> 00:35:58,420
And it happens broadly, I
feel, in biomedical sciences

779
00:35:58,420 --> 00:35:59,410
we're very supported.

780
00:35:59,410 --> 00:36:00,460
I have a great mentor.

781
00:36:00,460 --> 00:36:02,470
I have a great mentorship team.

782
00:36:02,470 --> 00:36:05,950
But our postdocs on main campus
in a variety of other fields

783
00:36:05,950 --> 00:36:08,410
do not get the same sort
of mentorship or training

784
00:36:08,410 --> 00:36:09,710
that we do.

785
00:36:09,710 --> 00:36:12,220
And so broadly, we've
been trying to figure out

786
00:36:12,220 --> 00:36:15,295
a way to navigate this.

787
00:36:15,295 --> 00:36:17,420
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Sounds
like a challenge, Nicole.

788
00:36:17,420 --> 00:36:18,820
Thank you for your comment.

789
00:36:18,820 --> 00:36:20,420
We'll take it to
the working group.

790
00:36:20,420 --> 00:36:21,940
AUDIENCE: Thank you.

791
00:36:21,940 --> 00:36:23,148
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Thank you.

792
00:36:23,148 --> 00:36:26,470
And I think this is
something [INAUDIBLE]..

793
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:30,220
The next comment
is from Alex Gener.

794
00:36:30,220 --> 00:36:32,410
And this comment is
on the terminology

795
00:36:32,410 --> 00:36:35,140
that we use to refer to
postdocs, the harassment

796
00:36:35,140 --> 00:36:37,300
and work environment,
and funding.

797
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:39,525
Alex, would you
be able to unmute?

798
00:36:39,525 --> 00:36:40,150
AUDIENCE: Yeah.

799
00:36:40,150 --> 00:36:41,210
Can you guys hear me?

800
00:36:41,210 --> 00:36:42,280
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Yes.

801
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:42,520
AUDIENCE: Great.

802
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:43,020
Thank you.

803
00:36:43,020 --> 00:36:44,930
And thanks for the opportunity.

804
00:36:44,930 --> 00:36:46,180
So a little bit of background.

805
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:48,610
So I finished my postdoc at
Baylor College of Medicine

806
00:36:48,610 --> 00:36:51,610
and then I worked with the
CDC during the COVID response

807
00:36:51,610 --> 00:36:53,350
as a bioinformatics fellow.

808
00:36:53,350 --> 00:36:56,200
And then because the job
market's a hot mess right now

809
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,410
and a lot of gears
are moving, I decided

810
00:36:59,410 --> 00:37:02,140
to kind of try to apply
to postdoc to not give up

811
00:37:02,140 --> 00:37:03,670
on academia, so to speak.

812
00:37:03,670 --> 00:37:07,420
But then also I'm also starting
a couple of different companies

813
00:37:07,420 --> 00:37:10,300
just to try to see if
we can kind of get that

814
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:11,140
off the ground.

815
00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:14,500
So I'm half in
academia and then half

816
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:16,210
ditching and running
away and trying

817
00:37:16,210 --> 00:37:18,980
to help people along
the way, understanding

818
00:37:18,980 --> 00:37:20,980
that most of the people
that I'd be working with

819
00:37:20,980 --> 00:37:23,313
are coming from academia.

820
00:37:23,313 --> 00:37:24,730
So I think the
first thing is just

821
00:37:24,730 --> 00:37:29,230
understanding that there's this
inbred concept that we have

822
00:37:29,230 --> 00:37:30,970
to keep learning about stuff.

823
00:37:30,970 --> 00:37:32,560
And sometimes
those opportunities

824
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,530
rely on sucking up to
mentors and putting ourselves

825
00:37:35,530 --> 00:37:38,390
into these permanently
vulnerable positions.

826
00:37:38,390 --> 00:37:41,170
So the second we realize that
postdocs are not trainees,

827
00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:44,410
we're early stage
scientists, I think

828
00:37:44,410 --> 00:37:47,980
that will give us room to
step away from that paradigm

829
00:37:47,980 --> 00:37:53,060
and to actually fairly
ask for resources.

830
00:37:53,060 --> 00:37:55,810
The next comment kind
of responding to abuse.

831
00:37:55,810 --> 00:37:58,360
I've definitely
seen institutions

832
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,630
with a lot of smart people
that they pay game the system

833
00:38:01,630 --> 00:38:05,590
and have boxes to check,
for example, if something

834
00:38:05,590 --> 00:38:06,560
bad happens.

835
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,070
We had an investigation,
let's say, and then

836
00:38:09,070 --> 00:38:11,830
nothing actually
substantive comes

837
00:38:11,830 --> 00:38:14,230
from that or separate
investigations

838
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:17,050
are handled separately and
then you don't necessarily

839
00:38:17,050 --> 00:38:20,020
see the body count
behind different PIs'

840
00:38:20,020 --> 00:38:22,240
inappropriate behavior or
different administrators'

841
00:38:22,240 --> 00:38:24,760
inappropriate behavior.

842
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:28,870
I think if we looked at
and were able to compare

843
00:38:28,870 --> 00:38:31,930
all of the institution's
grievance processes,

844
00:38:31,930 --> 00:38:34,420
we would more easily
be able to advocate

845
00:38:34,420 --> 00:38:36,598
for less shady practices.

846
00:38:36,598 --> 00:38:38,890
And that should be done before
any type of recruitment.

847
00:38:38,890 --> 00:38:40,473
Because once you're
at an institution,

848
00:38:40,473 --> 00:38:42,370
you're kind of locked
in and the situation

849
00:38:42,370 --> 00:38:46,360
is worse for
international postdocs.

850
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,370
If we funded
individual postdocs,

851
00:38:48,370 --> 00:38:50,770
then we wouldn't have
to necessarily stand

852
00:38:50,770 --> 00:38:52,660
any of the abuse and
we could potentially

853
00:38:52,660 --> 00:38:57,070
leave to better institutions
and shadier institutions

854
00:38:57,070 --> 00:39:01,420
would have more pressure to
improve their environments.

855
00:39:01,420 --> 00:39:03,730
And then the last little
bit has to do a little bit

856
00:39:03,730 --> 00:39:05,860
with financial stability
but then also kind

857
00:39:05,860 --> 00:39:08,800
applies to all trainees
or workforce members

858
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,430
where the NIH has a
loan repayment program,

859
00:39:12,430 --> 00:39:13,780
but you have to apply for it.

860
00:39:13,780 --> 00:39:17,000
I think it only happens
maybe once or twice a year.

861
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,200
And so realistically, you're in
a financially tough situation

862
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,620
until that kicks in, and it's
not necessarily guaranteed

863
00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:24,430
to renew.

864
00:39:24,430 --> 00:39:26,680
We can get rid of
all of that red tape

865
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:30,160
if we're saying that we want to
support our workforce members.

866
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,310
And I understand that might be
expensive, but you know what?

867
00:39:33,310 --> 00:39:35,778
We're smart people and we
can advocate for ourselves.

868
00:39:35,778 --> 00:39:36,820
And we're doing that now.

869
00:39:36,820 --> 00:39:37,900
So thank you again.

870
00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:40,558


871
00:39:40,558 --> 00:39:42,100
DONNA GINTHER: Well,
thank you, Alex.

872
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:44,710
I'm going to read a
comment on mentoring

873
00:39:44,710 --> 00:39:46,810
from an anonymous attendee.

874
00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:49,600
One thing I've heard echoed
many times over these sessions

875
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,450
is that a postdoc is no
longer what it used to be

876
00:39:52,450 --> 00:39:54,130
or what it was intended to be.

877
00:39:54,130 --> 00:39:56,440
Many PIs looking
to hire postdocs

878
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,510
are searching for highly
skilled scientists

879
00:39:58,510 --> 00:40:01,630
to hit the ground running
rather than trainees

880
00:40:01,630 --> 00:40:05,680
who want a mentored expansion
of skills and hands on teaching

881
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,470
of the postdoc can
suffer as a result.

882
00:40:08,470 --> 00:40:12,010
In larger labs, postdocs
may only interact with PIs

883
00:40:12,010 --> 00:40:16,090
at large lab meetings or over
Slack, which is not ideal.

884
00:40:16,090 --> 00:40:18,310
Of course, there are
PIs and institutions

885
00:40:18,310 --> 00:40:21,550
that continue to help postdoc
develop professionally,

886
00:40:21,550 --> 00:40:25,510
but I have encountered
late stage postdocs who

887
00:40:25,510 --> 00:40:28,840
still have no clarity on
tenure or academic structure

888
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,420
because no one has taken
the time to teach them.

889
00:40:31,420 --> 00:40:33,640
Postdocs who have
limited understanding

890
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:35,920
of grant writing, grant
mechanisms, and grant review

891
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,520
processes, again, because
no one has explained.

892
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,010
Ideally, NIH could
help provide some

893
00:40:42,010 --> 00:40:43,720
of these professional
developments

894
00:40:43,720 --> 00:40:46,060
such as how to develop
a budget for grants,

895
00:40:46,060 --> 00:40:49,570
negotiating startup,
chalk talks, et cetera.

896
00:40:49,570 --> 00:40:50,740
Thank you for this comment.

897
00:40:50,740 --> 00:40:53,630
We'll take it back
to the working group.

898
00:40:53,630 --> 00:40:54,880
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Absolutely.

899
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,260
Thank you.

900
00:40:56,260 --> 00:40:59,140
The next comment is
on diversity in hiring

901
00:40:59,140 --> 00:41:02,713
and comes from
Debora Kamin Mukaz.

902
00:41:02,713 --> 00:41:03,880
Debora, would you be able t?

903
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:04,380
Unmute.

904
00:41:04,380 --> 00:41:04,963
AUDIENCE: Yes.

905
00:41:04,963 --> 00:41:05,688
Can you hear me?

906
00:41:05,688 --> 00:41:06,730
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: I can.

907
00:41:06,730 --> 00:41:07,313
AUDIENCE: Yes.

908
00:41:07,313 --> 00:41:08,230
So thank you so much.

909
00:41:08,230 --> 00:41:10,450
I'm Debora Kamin Mukaz
and I'm a postdoc

910
00:41:10,450 --> 00:41:12,200
at the University of Vermont.

911
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:17,260
So we've been hearing
about quality of life

912
00:41:17,260 --> 00:41:19,960
and also job prospects
for postdocs.

913
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,570
But I'm speaking for
postdocs of color, especially

914
00:41:22,570 --> 00:41:23,900
Black postdocs.

915
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:26,500
So we often hear that
issues with diversity

916
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:28,390
are related to implicit bias.

917
00:41:28,390 --> 00:41:29,980
But I think the
bigger problem here is

918
00:41:29,980 --> 00:41:32,230
that we need structural change.

919
00:41:32,230 --> 00:41:34,820
We need structural change
at the institutional level,

920
00:41:34,820 --> 00:41:37,870
but we also need structural
change at the NIH.

921
00:41:37,870 --> 00:41:40,840
Because we do see that
there are disparities

922
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,100
when it comes to
funding for Black people

923
00:41:45,100 --> 00:41:47,150
and Black postdocs.

924
00:41:47,150 --> 00:41:49,870
So at the NIH
level, something has

925
00:41:49,870 --> 00:41:52,900
to be done in order
for Black postdocs

926
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:54,940
to have similar
levels of funding

927
00:41:54,940 --> 00:41:58,060
compared to other postdocs
in the United States.

928
00:41:58,060 --> 00:42:02,020
And when it comes to the other
side of structural changes also

929
00:42:02,020 --> 00:42:04,460
looking at retaining
Black scientists,

930
00:42:04,460 --> 00:42:06,490
so what usually
happens is that we

931
00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:08,320
want to recruit
Black scientists,

932
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,510
but we also have to retain them.

933
00:42:10,510 --> 00:42:15,340
And we cannot retain them by
just having these conversations

934
00:42:15,340 --> 00:42:17,020
around implicit bias.

935
00:42:17,020 --> 00:42:18,790
We have to have rules.

936
00:42:18,790 --> 00:42:21,680
Institutions have to
implement rules, policies,

937
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:23,950
and they have to
take into account

938
00:42:23,950 --> 00:42:28,870
the very particular experiences
of Black scientists.

939
00:42:28,870 --> 00:42:31,050
So that was my comment.

940
00:42:31,050 --> 00:42:32,050
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Yeah.

941
00:42:32,050 --> 00:42:33,175
Thank you for that comment.

942
00:42:33,175 --> 00:42:34,528
This is on important points.

943
00:42:34,528 --> 00:42:36,820
These are the things that we
will definitely bring back

944
00:42:36,820 --> 00:42:39,210
to the working group.

945
00:42:39,210 --> 00:42:40,600
DONNA GINTHER: Yes, thank you.

946
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,280
And now we have a comment on
publishing from James Gould.

947
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:45,345
James, can you unmute?

948
00:42:45,345 --> 00:42:48,000


949
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,000
AUDIENCE: Hi, thank you.

950
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:49,880
Can you hear me?

951
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:50,080
DONNA GINTHER: Yes.

952
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:50,620
AUDIENCE: Hi.

953
00:42:50,620 --> 00:42:52,537
This is Jim Gould from
Harvard Medical School.

954
00:42:52,537 --> 00:42:58,240
I was just commenting on the
importance of, correct or not,

955
00:42:58,240 --> 00:43:00,850
the importance of publications
in postdoc career advancement

956
00:43:00,850 --> 00:43:05,110
and faculty career advancement,
especially in academia.

957
00:43:05,110 --> 00:43:08,140
I think we're ignoring a key
factor in training and well

958
00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:12,520
being by not including
publishers and journals

959
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,780
in this discussion,
because they influence just

960
00:43:16,780 --> 00:43:20,410
about every element
of postdoc training,

961
00:43:20,410 --> 00:43:25,060
current in postdoc
training, graduate training,

962
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:29,930
as well as a transition into
faculty and even into industry.

963
00:43:29,930 --> 00:43:35,320
So I think we're just ignoring
publications and publishers

964
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:36,040
and journals.

965
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,780
There is a lot going on
that needs to go into that.

966
00:43:39,780 --> 00:43:48,520
Postdoc tenure time, stress,
misrepresentation of data,

967
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:54,250
pressure to publish
in higher end journals

968
00:43:54,250 --> 00:43:56,120
or not allowed to
publish at all.

969
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,450
So I think we need to include
that in our discussions.

970
00:43:59,450 --> 00:43:59,950
Thanks.

971
00:43:59,950 --> 00:44:02,910


972
00:44:02,910 --> 00:44:05,100
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Thank
you for that comment.

973
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:07,017
We're not really supposed
to comment too much,

974
00:44:07,017 --> 00:44:09,120
but I will say we are
definitely including people

975
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,245
from publications and
journals in our working group

976
00:44:11,245 --> 00:44:11,890
discussions.

977
00:44:11,890 --> 00:44:13,260
Absolutely.

978
00:44:13,260 --> 00:44:15,460
And will continue to do so.

979
00:44:15,460 --> 00:44:18,420
So our next comment is
from an anonymous attendee.

980
00:44:18,420 --> 00:44:20,130
So I'll read this one.

981
00:44:20,130 --> 00:44:23,340
This is about postdocs
replying to Rs.

982
00:44:23,340 --> 00:44:25,740
It says I think it could
be useful to encourage

983
00:44:25,740 --> 00:44:30,610
universities to allow postdocs
to apply for R grants.

984
00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:32,400
In quotes, some
universities do not

985
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:37,350
allow postdocs to be PI
on Rs outside the R03.

986
00:44:37,350 --> 00:44:40,800
The K99 is a time limited
in highly competitive grant,

987
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:43,320
but encouraging universities
to allow postdocs

988
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:47,490
to apply for other mechanisms
could increase success and aid

989
00:44:47,490 --> 00:44:49,093
job searches.

990
00:44:49,093 --> 00:44:50,010
So that's the comment.

991
00:44:50,010 --> 00:44:52,518
Thank you very much for that.

992
00:44:52,518 --> 00:44:53,310
DONNA GINTHER: Yes.

993
00:44:53,310 --> 00:44:56,400
And now there's a comment on
funding trajectory outside

994
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,650
of academia from Beth Cimini.

995
00:44:58,650 --> 00:45:01,320
Beth, could you unmute, please?

996
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:03,000
AUDIENCE: Yes, hi.

997
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,210
I just wanted to say I agree
with one of the earlier

998
00:45:06,210 --> 00:45:08,670
panelists that it's not
a problem if postdocs

999
00:45:08,670 --> 00:45:11,820
don't want to stay in academia
at the end of their postdoc.

1000
00:45:11,820 --> 00:45:14,010
But if we do want to
create roles for them

1001
00:45:14,010 --> 00:45:16,560
to stay in academia, the
obvious place to do that

1002
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,610
is in terms of staff scientist
or tech specialist roles.

1003
00:45:20,610 --> 00:45:22,590
But those roles are
extremely difficult to fund

1004
00:45:22,590 --> 00:45:25,710
from the point of view of grants
with modular budgets so small

1005
00:45:25,710 --> 00:45:28,210
and with no specialized
opportunities for those.

1006
00:45:28,210 --> 00:45:31,170
So if we want to think about
where people who are currently

1007
00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:34,050
postdocs can go, that seems
like a major problem that

1008
00:45:34,050 --> 00:45:35,580
also needs to be addressed.

1009
00:45:35,580 --> 00:45:39,610


1010
00:45:39,610 --> 00:45:42,680
DONNA GINTHER: Thank
you for that comment.

1011
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:44,270
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Yes, thank you.

1012
00:45:44,270 --> 00:45:48,470
The next comment is an anonymous
comment on unfair termination

1013
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:49,640
without protection.

1014
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:51,850
So I'll read this one as well.

1015
00:45:51,850 --> 00:45:55,660
I am a postdoc at Mount Sinai
and one of the major concerns

1016
00:45:55,660 --> 00:45:57,850
postdocs here have
is that we don't

1017
00:45:57,850 --> 00:46:01,090
have protections against
termination without cause.

1018
00:46:01,090 --> 00:46:03,490
Unfair terminations
are especially

1019
00:46:03,490 --> 00:46:06,400
disruptive for
international postdocs

1020
00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:09,010
who need to leave the
country within 30 days.

1021
00:46:09,010 --> 00:46:11,170
We recently formed
a postdoc union

1022
00:46:11,170 --> 00:46:13,540
to fight for better
job security, which

1023
00:46:13,540 --> 00:46:15,460
will lead to better science.

1024
00:46:15,460 --> 00:46:17,380
Thank you so much for
sharing that comment,

1025
00:46:17,380 --> 00:46:20,450
and we'll be sure to bring
that up with the working group.

1026
00:46:20,450 --> 00:46:21,700
DONNA GINTHER: Yes, thank you.

1027
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:24,940
And the next comment is about
perceptions of the funding

1028
00:46:24,940 --> 00:46:29,500
portfolio and the connections
to the DEIA efforts

1029
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:31,000
from Catharine Krebs.

1030
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,870
Catharine, would
you please unmute?

1031
00:46:33,870 --> 00:46:34,950
AUDIENCE: Hello.

1032
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:37,710
My name is Catharine Krebs
with the Physicians Committee

1033
00:46:37,710 --> 00:46:39,660
For Responsible Medicine.

1034
00:46:39,660 --> 00:46:41,280
The next generation
of scientists

1035
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,200
needs to be supported
and equipped

1036
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,500
with the most ethical and
effective experimental tools

1037
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:50,730
and know how to tackle our
most pressing health challenges

1038
00:46:50,730 --> 00:46:53,760
and to be competitive
in biomedical research.

1039
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,730
The NIH research
portfolio overwhelmingly

1040
00:46:56,730 --> 00:47:00,090
favors biological
mechanistic investigations

1041
00:47:00,090 --> 00:47:03,600
which aim to translate to
pharmaceutical interventions.

1042
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:07,050
This under prioritizes
and defunds research

1043
00:47:07,050 --> 00:47:10,020
and interventions, targeting
social and structural

1044
00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:13,530
determinants of health, thus
failing to adequately support

1045
00:47:13,530 --> 00:47:15,450
researchers interested
in addressing

1046
00:47:15,450 --> 00:47:18,000
health disparities
who, for example, are

1047
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:19,740
more likely to be Black.

1048
00:47:19,740 --> 00:47:23,550
Participation from researchers
and research subjects

1049
00:47:23,550 --> 00:47:26,850
from underrepresented and
socially disadvantaged groups

1050
00:47:26,850 --> 00:47:29,580
in NIH funded
science is crucial,

1051
00:47:29,580 --> 00:47:33,030
but it requires a shift
in strategies and funds.

1052
00:47:33,030 --> 00:47:37,050
Moreover, diversity, equity,
inclusion, and accessibility

1053
00:47:37,050 --> 00:47:39,360
efforts will
continually fall short

1054
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:43,650
without a significant change
in scientific culture.

1055
00:47:43,650 --> 00:47:47,770
The Unite initiative, for
example, is a promising start.

1056
00:47:47,770 --> 00:47:51,090
But ending structural
racism is a long road ahead,

1057
00:47:51,090 --> 00:47:53,970
and there's a really important
opportunity here when

1058
00:47:53,970 --> 00:47:55,950
addressing the postdoc issue.

1059
00:47:55,950 --> 00:47:59,490
And I also want to
echo the comment

1060
00:47:59,490 --> 00:48:03,720
that Neal Sweeney made about
the importance of forming

1061
00:48:03,720 --> 00:48:05,670
labor unions.

1062
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:08,230
And I strongly support
his recommendation

1063
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:12,750
that the NIH require grantees
to remain neutral when

1064
00:48:12,750 --> 00:48:14,400
workers are forming unions.

1065
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,220
I think this could
go a really long way

1066
00:48:17,220 --> 00:48:21,180
in supporting postdocs
and graduate students when

1067
00:48:21,180 --> 00:48:22,740
forming labor unions.

1068
00:48:22,740 --> 00:48:23,550
Thank you.

1069
00:48:23,550 --> 00:48:26,745


1070
00:48:26,745 --> 00:48:28,120
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Yes, thank you

1071
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:33,490
so much for that comment
or those comments, really,

1072
00:48:33,490 --> 00:48:36,670
on really important
and critical topics.

1073
00:48:36,670 --> 00:48:40,570
The next comment is an
idea on a two tier postdoc.

1074
00:48:40,570 --> 00:48:42,850
And this is also an
anonymous comment.

1075
00:48:42,850 --> 00:48:43,990
So I will read it.

1076
00:48:43,990 --> 00:48:46,420
It says, I would like to
see the implementation

1077
00:48:46,420 --> 00:48:49,660
of different phases within
the postdoc experience.

1078
00:48:49,660 --> 00:48:52,570
Postdocs could start as
"trainees," in quotes,

1079
00:48:52,570 --> 00:48:57,070
and have this period last only
for a one to two year period.

1080
00:48:57,070 --> 00:48:59,020
Postdocs are highly
skilled, so being

1081
00:48:59,020 --> 00:49:01,090
considered a
trainee doesn't make

1082
00:49:01,090 --> 00:49:03,040
much sense after this period.

1083
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,950
Being mentored is not the
same as being trained.

1084
00:49:05,950 --> 00:49:07,870
After one to two
years, they could then

1085
00:49:07,870 --> 00:49:09,820
choose between a
variety of tracks.

1086
00:49:09,820 --> 00:49:12,820
Industry track, young
investigator track, et cetera.

1087
00:49:12,820 --> 00:49:15,320
With clear definitions
and guidelines.

1088
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:17,890
So PIs won't push back
on time being used

1089
00:49:17,890 --> 00:49:19,990
for internships, et cetera.

1090
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:23,260
Universities would need guidance
for how to implement training

1091
00:49:23,260 --> 00:49:25,150
for non-academic jobs.

1092
00:49:25,150 --> 00:49:25,970
Thank you for that.

1093
00:49:25,970 --> 00:49:27,700
I think that's a
really exciting idea

1094
00:49:27,700 --> 00:49:30,998
and we'll be sure to share
that with the working group.

1095
00:49:30,998 --> 00:49:32,540
DONNA GINTHER: And
here's a follow up

1096
00:49:32,540 --> 00:49:36,590
comment on the
pre-faculty position idea.

1097
00:49:36,590 --> 00:49:40,010
This person says,
I strongly disagree

1098
00:49:40,010 --> 00:49:42,230
with the pre-faculty
position idea.

1099
00:49:42,230 --> 00:49:44,730
That is why postdoc
positions were created

1100
00:49:44,730 --> 00:49:46,040
and we see the results.

1101
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:49,850
Adding more in between
steps wastes people's lives.

1102
00:49:49,850 --> 00:49:52,790
These are 30 to 35
plus year old people

1103
00:49:52,790 --> 00:49:56,150
already in very vulnerable
and unstable positions.

1104
00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:59,580
Adding one more of that
will only make it worse.

1105
00:49:59,580 --> 00:50:03,320
And I agree that postdocs
are not trainees.

1106
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:08,120
First what are we trained
for for seven plus years?

1107
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,210
Even PhDs do not
take you that long.

1108
00:50:11,210 --> 00:50:14,855
Calling postdocs
trainees is abuse.

1109
00:50:14,855 --> 00:50:16,730
Thank you for that
comment, and we'll take it

1110
00:50:16,730 --> 00:50:19,320
back to the working group.

1111
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,040
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Yes, thank you.

1112
00:50:21,040 --> 00:50:24,120
Our next comment is
on funding issues

1113
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,610
within the modular budget.

1114
00:50:26,610 --> 00:50:30,750
This comment comes from
Lisa Privette Vinnedge.

1115
00:50:30,750 --> 00:50:32,236
Lisa, would you
be able to unmute?

1116
00:50:32,236 --> 00:50:35,500


1117
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:36,710
AUDIENCE: Can you hear me.

1118
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:37,720
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Yes.

1119
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:39,637
AUDIENCE: Well, I've had
a couple of comments.

1120
00:50:39,637 --> 00:50:42,480
This was on the modular
budget, correct?

1121
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:43,030
Yeah.

1122
00:50:43,030 --> 00:50:46,000
So there's been
a few mentionings

1123
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,860
of concerns about
modular budgets

1124
00:50:47,860 --> 00:50:52,580
and their inadequacy and
their inadequate buying power.

1125
00:50:52,580 --> 00:50:55,660
And I just wanted to add
that as a faculty member,

1126
00:50:55,660 --> 00:51:01,630
the modular budget is now so bad
that our leadership is telling

1127
00:51:01,630 --> 00:51:05,200
us do not even request the
modular budget, because it

1128
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:09,010
won't be enough to cover
the needed salaries

1129
00:51:09,010 --> 00:51:12,980
and supplies to actually do
the work you're proposing.

1130
00:51:12,980 --> 00:51:15,090
So I don't know if
the NIH realizes that.

1131
00:51:15,090 --> 00:51:18,800
But I'd be curious to see
if there's a declining

1132
00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,860
request in the modular
budget at the same time

1133
00:51:21,860 --> 00:51:26,120
that you're seeing
staffing issues.

1134
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,740


1135
00:51:28,740 --> 00:51:29,740
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Yeah.

1136
00:51:29,740 --> 00:51:33,000
Thank you for pointing out
that important comment.

1137
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:34,950
DONNA GINTHER: Yes, thank you.

1138
00:51:34,950 --> 00:51:40,680
Here is an anonymous comment
on the oversight of mentoring.

1139
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,920
In academia, faculty are the
gatekeepers to opportunity,

1140
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:48,180
T32 support, and who the
department will support

1141
00:51:48,180 --> 00:51:52,260
for a K, speaking opportunities,
and professional development.

1142
00:51:52,260 --> 00:51:57,000
There needs to be a mechanism
in place to monitor and evaluate

1143
00:51:57,000 --> 00:52:00,000
bias in the oversight of
government funded opportunities

1144
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:02,340
by faculty and the institution.

1145
00:52:02,340 --> 00:52:06,060
This oversight needs to be
supported and transparent.

1146
00:52:06,060 --> 00:52:08,262
Thank you for this comment.

1147
00:52:08,262 --> 00:52:09,220
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: Yes.

1148
00:52:09,220 --> 00:52:11,320
And the next comment
is also anonymous.

1149
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:15,520
This comment is on mentors slash
PIs and the management training

1150
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,287
they receive or don't receive.

1151
00:52:17,287 --> 00:52:18,370
So I'll read this comment.

1152
00:52:18,370 --> 00:52:21,340
A major deficit in
the academic model

1153
00:52:21,340 --> 00:52:24,970
is that faculty are acting as
managers without ever receiving

1154
00:52:24,970 --> 00:52:27,220
meaningful management training.

1155
00:52:27,220 --> 00:52:30,490
My spouse is in business and
the standards for managers

1156
00:52:30,490 --> 00:52:33,860
are so much higher I'm
assuming in that field.

1157
00:52:33,860 --> 00:52:36,278
Thank you for that comment.

1158
00:52:36,278 --> 00:52:37,320
DONNA GINTHER: Thank you.

1159
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,270
And we'll go to Lisa
Privette Vinnedge again.

1160
00:52:41,270 --> 00:52:44,070
Please unmute, Lisa.

1161
00:52:44,070 --> 00:52:44,630
AUDIENCE: Hi.

1162
00:52:44,630 --> 00:52:46,360
I'm back.

1163
00:52:46,360 --> 00:52:48,070
So in addition to
a faculty member,

1164
00:52:48,070 --> 00:52:51,210
I'm a director of
our postdoc office.

1165
00:52:51,210 --> 00:52:58,290
And speaking about the
financial hardships,

1166
00:52:58,290 --> 00:53:01,410
there's been a lot of
discussion on the rising

1167
00:53:01,410 --> 00:53:06,030
cost of undergraduate tuition
and just tuition in general

1168
00:53:06,030 --> 00:53:09,030
and loan forgiveness
at the national level.

1169
00:53:09,030 --> 00:53:13,170
But I could see an opportunity
with the NIH existing loan

1170
00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:14,430
repayment program.

1171
00:53:14,430 --> 00:53:18,360
So a lot of those
opportunities for the LRP

1172
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:24,420
are limited to clinicians or
certain fields of research that

1173
00:53:24,420 --> 00:53:27,900
exclude a huge portion of
the biomedical research

1174
00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:29,860
basic science workforce.

1175
00:53:29,860 --> 00:53:32,940
And so I think broadening
that existing program would

1176
00:53:32,940 --> 00:53:35,820
be a really enticing way to
encourage graduate students

1177
00:53:35,820 --> 00:53:38,370
to enter postdocs if
there was a chance

1178
00:53:38,370 --> 00:53:39,960
that their undergraduate
loans could

1179
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,320
be repaid partially or in full.

1180
00:53:43,320 --> 00:53:45,900
And that would relieve
a lot of their stress

1181
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:50,490
as well, their financial stress,
and free up their salaries

1182
00:53:50,490 --> 00:53:53,220
for things that would help
them in their life a little bit

1183
00:53:53,220 --> 00:53:55,480
more.

1184
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,733
DONNA GINTHER: Thank
you, Lisa, for that idea.

1185
00:53:58,733 --> 00:54:00,150
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD:
Yes, thank you.

1186
00:54:00,150 --> 00:54:04,320
The next comment is anonymous
and it's about transparency

1187
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:05,730
for institutions.

1188
00:54:05,730 --> 00:54:08,820
The comment reads
NIH funded institutes

1189
00:54:08,820 --> 00:54:12,480
must reveal all of their
institutional policies

1190
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:15,630
so workforce members
have informed consent

1191
00:54:15,630 --> 00:54:18,330
into which kinds of environments
they may be stepping

1192
00:54:18,330 --> 00:54:20,430
into before recruitment.

1193
00:54:20,430 --> 00:54:24,270
Yes, establish a
paradigm, then publicly

1194
00:54:24,270 --> 00:54:29,370
score universities to very
clearly show how close they

1195
00:54:29,370 --> 00:54:32,400
are to NIH expectations.

1196
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:36,240
At our institution, and I'm a
postdoc office administrator,

1197
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:37,980
this would greatly
help our office

1198
00:54:37,980 --> 00:54:41,670
to make changes and
justify budget allocations.

1199
00:54:41,670 --> 00:54:45,060
Thank you for that comment.

1200
00:54:45,060 --> 00:54:47,520
DONNA GINTHER: OK, we have
another anonymous comment

1201
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:52,350
on mentor evaluations as a
component of RPPR progress

1202
00:54:52,350 --> 00:54:53,610
reports.

1203
00:54:53,610 --> 00:54:57,030
The NIH has the potential
to be a driver of change.

1204
00:54:57,030 --> 00:54:58,860
It should require
that any funds used

1205
00:54:58,860 --> 00:55:02,250
to cover postdoc trainees
as reported on the progress

1206
00:55:02,250 --> 00:55:07,050
reports include a standardized
evaluation by the trainee done

1207
00:55:07,050 --> 00:55:09,300
via portal
administered by the NIH

1208
00:55:09,300 --> 00:55:12,180
to avoid the risk
of bias coercion

1209
00:55:12,180 --> 00:55:14,400
to describe their
mentoring experience.

1210
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:16,380
And also the NIH
should do a follow

1211
00:55:16,380 --> 00:55:18,450
up one or two years later.

1212
00:55:18,450 --> 00:55:21,060
Future use of research
funds by the PI

1213
00:55:21,060 --> 00:55:24,300
to support postdoc
trainees would then

1214
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:27,210
be based on how their
past postdocs rated

1215
00:55:27,210 --> 00:55:29,470
the PI's mentorship support.

1216
00:55:29,470 --> 00:55:33,270
This could be a powerful
driver of cultural change.

1217
00:55:33,270 --> 00:55:35,070
And I'll continue with this.

1218
00:55:35,070 --> 00:55:37,470
PIs who can't
effectively mentor can

1219
00:55:37,470 --> 00:55:40,350
continue doing research
and getting research funds

1220
00:55:40,350 --> 00:55:42,990
but of course should not
be allowed near postdocs

1221
00:55:42,990 --> 00:55:46,170
unless they have done some
type of remediation training.

1222
00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:49,590
Another option is that prior
to allowing the use of research

1223
00:55:49,590 --> 00:55:52,620
grant funds for postdocs,
the PI is required

1224
00:55:52,620 --> 00:55:54,900
to do mentorship
training and be approved

1225
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:59,280
by the academic university
as being adequately skilled.

1226
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,735
Thank you for these ideas.

1227
00:56:00,735 --> 00:56:03,285


1228
00:56:03,285 --> 00:56:05,160
CHRYSTAL STARBIRD: And
then the next comment,

1229
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:07,920
I think perhaps the last
comment, is an anonymous one.

1230
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:09,930
It's a resource share.

1231
00:56:09,930 --> 00:56:13,200
Due to lack of mentorship on
obtaining faculty positions,

1232
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,110
we provide our postdocs
the HHMI resource

1233
00:56:16,110 --> 00:56:17,595
Making The Right Moves.

1234
00:56:17,595 --> 00:56:19,470
And so there's a website
associated with this

1235
00:56:19,470 --> 00:56:22,770
that you can find
online, but it's

1236
00:56:22,770 --> 00:56:24,585
HHMI Making The Right Moves.

1237
00:56:24,585 --> 00:56:26,950


1238
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:27,700
DONNA GINTHER: OK.

1239
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:30,560
And here's one more
anonymous comment.

1240
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,600
It would be useful to my work as
a postdoc office administrator

1241
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,980
if I could see more national
data on IDP effectiveness.

1242
00:56:38,980 --> 00:56:42,910
I've seen more than a few
PIs refuse to take the IDP

1243
00:56:42,910 --> 00:56:44,680
process seriously.

1244
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:49,400
And an IDP is Individual
Development Plan.

1245
00:56:49,400 --> 00:56:54,140
TARA SCHWETZ: With that, I know
that we are approaching time

1246
00:56:54,140 --> 00:56:55,750
here.

1247
00:56:55,750 --> 00:57:00,430
But I want to just take a
moment before we drop off,

1248
00:57:00,430 --> 00:57:03,970
before everyone starts
to leave, that I

1249
00:57:03,970 --> 00:57:06,610
want to just thank you all
again for your interest

1250
00:57:06,610 --> 00:57:07,390
in these topics.

1251
00:57:07,390 --> 00:57:11,350
And we've had four different
sessions, as we've said,

1252
00:57:11,350 --> 00:57:16,000
all with 400 plus attendees.

1253
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,310
Lots of really
great speakers who

1254
00:57:18,310 --> 00:57:23,020
have provided their input
and ideas and suggestions.

1255
00:57:23,020 --> 00:57:25,450
And of course, we always
appreciate the members

1256
00:57:25,450 --> 00:57:27,610
of the working group who
have offered their time

1257
00:57:27,610 --> 00:57:32,140
to help not just facilitate the
discussion here today, but also

1258
00:57:32,140 --> 00:57:34,750
on the working group itself.

1259
00:57:34,750 --> 00:57:38,380
Again, we, as we would
have anticipated,

1260
00:57:38,380 --> 00:57:40,150
unfortunately didn't
have time to get

1261
00:57:40,150 --> 00:57:44,170
to all of the about 100 or
so questions and comments

1262
00:57:44,170 --> 00:57:45,790
that came through.

1263
00:57:45,790 --> 00:57:49,000
As mentioned previously,
we are collecting

1264
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:51,760
all of the input that
has been submitted

1265
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:53,440
and will share it
with the working

1266
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,660
group for consideration.

1267
00:57:55,660 --> 00:57:58,930
I also just want to point out
that a recording of today's

1268
00:57:58,930 --> 00:58:03,370
listening session and accessible
materials along with materials

1269
00:58:03,370 --> 00:58:04,930
from all of the
sessions are going

1270
00:58:04,930 --> 00:58:08,770
to be posted to the working
group website next week.

1271
00:58:08,770 --> 00:58:10,990
And I guess the first
two sessions are actually

1272
00:58:10,990 --> 00:58:12,050
already available.

1273
00:58:12,050 --> 00:58:16,630
So I encourage you all to
take a look at the website.

1274
00:58:16,630 --> 00:58:20,410
This is our fourth and
final listening session.

1275
00:58:20,410 --> 00:58:24,620
It is not the last time
that you can engage with us.

1276
00:58:24,620 --> 00:58:28,390
You can also do so through the
open request for information.

1277
00:58:28,390 --> 00:58:31,930
That is still out and
will close on April 14.

1278
00:58:31,930 --> 00:58:35,450
So please, we invite you
to comment on these issues

1279
00:58:35,450 --> 00:58:36,980
there as well.

1280
00:58:36,980 --> 00:58:39,250
And I believe the
link to the RFI

1281
00:58:39,250 --> 00:58:41,740
and the website
should be in the chat.

1282
00:58:41,740 --> 00:58:44,080
I see them now.

1283
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,060
We really look forward,
though, to continue

1284
00:58:46,060 --> 00:58:48,460
to engage with all of
you with the community

1285
00:58:48,460 --> 00:58:50,620
as we develop these
recommendations

1286
00:58:50,620 --> 00:58:54,070
and as we continue
to gather feedback

1287
00:58:54,070 --> 00:58:57,640
and have robust discussions
and move forward

1288
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,510
with the development
of recommendations.

1289
00:58:59,510 --> 00:59:01,450
So with that, maybe
I'll turn it to Shelley

1290
00:59:01,450 --> 00:59:03,565
for some final words.

1291
00:59:03,565 --> 00:59:04,940
SHELLEY BERGER:
Yeah, I just want

1292
00:59:04,940 --> 00:59:06,560
to add my thanks to everyone.

1293
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,030
I know many of you I see
your names over and over,

1294
00:59:09,030 --> 00:59:12,260
so there are many people who've
been very interested coming

1295
00:59:12,260 --> 00:59:14,750
back for all of these sessions.

1296
00:59:14,750 --> 00:59:18,140
We really deeply
appreciate your input

1297
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:20,150
and ideas, recommendations.

1298
00:59:20,150 --> 00:59:22,610
There have been some really
interesting things that we

1299
00:59:22,610 --> 00:59:23,820
haven't yet thought of yet.

1300
00:59:23,820 --> 00:59:27,330
So we're collecting all of those
and we're going to evaluate.

1301
00:59:27,330 --> 00:59:31,760
So thanks to the speakers today.

1302
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:32,750
Great talks.

1303
00:59:32,750 --> 00:59:34,864
So we really appreciate that.

1304
00:59:34,864 --> 00:59:38,240
And to the working group
members who facilitated.

1305
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,070
Thanks to everyone.

1306
00:59:40,070 --> 00:59:42,190
Have a nice day.

1307
00:59:42,190 --> 00:59:43,000