1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:01,000 TARA SCHWETZ: All right. 2 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,050 Thank you for joining us all today. 3 00:00:03,050 --> 00:00:04,420 I am Dr. Tara Schwetz. 4 00:00:04,420 --> 00:00:08,500 I am the Acting Principal Deputy Director of the National 5 00:00:08,500 --> 00:00:10,570 Institutes of Health, and I'm also 6 00:00:10,570 --> 00:00:13,030 the co-chair of the NIH Advisory Committee 7 00:00:13,030 --> 00:00:17,590 to the Director Working Group on Re-Envisioning NIH-Supported 8 00:00:17,590 --> 00:00:19,018 Postdoctoral Training. 9 00:00:19,018 --> 00:00:20,560 And I'm really pleased to welcome you 10 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:23,530 all today to today's session. 11 00:00:23,530 --> 00:00:26,110 Joining me today, we have Dr. Shelley Berger, 12 00:00:26,110 --> 00:00:28,540 who's a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, 13 00:00:28,540 --> 00:00:32,240 and she's also a co-chair of the working group. 14 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:34,810 We also have the pleasure of having two additional members 15 00:00:34,810 --> 00:00:36,640 of the working group join us. 16 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:41,080 Tom Kimbis, who is the Executive Director and Chief Executive 17 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,860 Officer at the National Postdoctoral Association, 18 00:00:44,860 --> 00:00:47,440 and Dr. Emily Miller, who's the Deputy Vice 19 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:51,250 President for Institutional Policy at the Association 20 00:00:51,250 --> 00:00:53,510 of American Universities. 21 00:00:53,510 --> 00:00:57,920 Now I just want to take a moment to set the stage for what 22 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:00,200 brings us all here today, and that's 23 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,530 insuring the future of US competitiveness and innovation 24 00:01:03,530 --> 00:01:05,450 in biomedical research. 25 00:01:05,450 --> 00:01:09,050 This is really of utmost importance to NIH. 26 00:01:09,050 --> 00:01:11,630 And in order to do that, we must promote 27 00:01:11,630 --> 00:01:13,460 the well-being and sustainability 28 00:01:13,460 --> 00:01:16,610 of the biomedical workforce. 29 00:01:16,610 --> 00:01:18,470 Our working group was established 30 00:01:18,470 --> 00:01:21,200 to specifically address growing concerns 31 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:23,180 about the post-doctoral training system 32 00:01:23,180 --> 00:01:25,430 and academic research investigators' 33 00:01:25,430 --> 00:01:28,760 ability to recruit qualified postdoctoral candidates 34 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,690 in the future. 35 00:01:30,690 --> 00:01:32,870 The goal of the working group is to explore 36 00:01:32,870 --> 00:01:35,480 the status of the postdoctoral training system, 37 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,140 identify and understand critical factors and issues 38 00:01:39,140 --> 00:01:41,900 relating to this perceived decline in the number 39 00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:44,960 of postdoctoral fellows in academia, 40 00:01:44,960 --> 00:01:48,480 and provide recommendations to address those factors. 41 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:52,190 So today, NIH wants to hear from you, the biomedical research 42 00:01:52,190 --> 00:01:54,860 community, about all of these issues. 43 00:01:54,860 --> 00:01:59,010 Your feedback and input are critical to this endeavor. 44 00:01:59,010 --> 00:02:02,210 So to set the stage, you'll be hearing from a few invited 45 00:02:02,210 --> 00:02:03,350 speakers. 46 00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:04,910 And then we're going to open it up 47 00:02:04,910 --> 00:02:07,460 to structured discussion from all 48 00:02:07,460 --> 00:02:10,400 of the attendees for the remainder of the hour 49 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:11,810 before we close. 50 00:02:11,810 --> 00:02:14,870 Now we're going to collect comments and input 51 00:02:14,870 --> 00:02:19,700 using the Q&A function on Zoom, which is open now. 52 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:23,670 I will say that Q&A is a little bit of a misnomer in this case. 53 00:02:23,670 --> 00:02:27,080 So while we may address some clarifying questions, 54 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:29,540 I want to reiterate that this is a listening session. 55 00:02:29,540 --> 00:02:32,690 And we aim to listen to your comments, your input, 56 00:02:32,690 --> 00:02:35,840 and really importantly, we want your ideas and suggestions 57 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:37,980 for how we can move forward. 58 00:02:37,980 --> 00:02:40,520 So we ask that you please go ahead and provide either 59 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:44,210 your comment or a note on the topic of your comment 60 00:02:44,210 --> 00:02:46,700 using that Q&A function. 61 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:49,460 And you can feel free to use the Anonymous option 62 00:02:49,460 --> 00:02:53,270 and your note will be then read aloud without attribution. 63 00:02:53,270 --> 00:02:56,510 So feel free to start submitting your input and that Q&A box 64 00:02:56,510 --> 00:02:58,060 now. 65 00:02:58,060 --> 00:03:01,130 OK, with that, I'm going to hand it over to Shelley to frame 66 00:03:01,130 --> 00:03:02,090 today's-- 67 00:03:02,090 --> 00:03:03,770 the focus of today's session, which 68 00:03:03,770 --> 00:03:06,080 is on compensation and benefits, including 69 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:07,590 child and dependent care. 70 00:03:07,590 --> 00:03:08,973 So with that, Shelley? 71 00:03:08,973 --> 00:03:09,890 SHELLEY BERGER: Great. 72 00:03:09,890 --> 00:03:11,090 Thank you, Tara. 73 00:03:11,090 --> 00:03:16,710 And I want to reiterate my welcome to all of you. 74 00:03:16,710 --> 00:03:18,770 We're really happy to have you all 75 00:03:18,770 --> 00:03:21,590 here to contribute to the discussion 76 00:03:21,590 --> 00:03:23,690 and to get your comments. 77 00:03:23,690 --> 00:03:26,750 So I want to set the stage for today's conversation 78 00:03:26,750 --> 00:03:29,810 with just a few data points to get us started. 79 00:03:29,810 --> 00:03:36,830 And in this first slide, we've collected our impressions 80 00:03:36,830 --> 00:03:41,390 of the many forces that appear to be driving the decline 81 00:03:41,390 --> 00:03:44,600 and challenges that are experienced by postdocs 82 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:46,670 in this current period. 83 00:03:46,670 --> 00:03:49,940 These include limited opportunities in academia, 84 00:03:49,940 --> 00:03:53,390 the lengthening time to publish, new opportunities that have 85 00:03:53,390 --> 00:03:56,150 been coming up in pharma and biotech, 86 00:03:56,150 --> 00:04:00,110 expanding research expectations with all the new technologies 87 00:04:00,110 --> 00:04:05,090 and ways that we can approach our research interests, 88 00:04:05,090 --> 00:04:09,230 and then finally, of course, the difficulties in work-life 89 00:04:09,230 --> 00:04:14,180 balance and the cost of living, which really are key-- 90 00:04:14,180 --> 00:04:17,779 these are the key forces for today's consideration 91 00:04:17,779 --> 00:04:22,050 when talking about cost-of-living issues. 92 00:04:22,050 --> 00:04:26,660 So now on the next slide, if you take a look at the stipends 93 00:04:26,660 --> 00:04:29,720 that come from National Institutes of Health 94 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:34,400 for fellows, for postdoc fellows, 95 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,150 which is the NIH's main individual postdoc fellowship 96 00:04:38,150 --> 00:04:41,780 mechanism, here, you can see that they've been steadily 97 00:04:41,780 --> 00:04:45,920 growing over the last 10 years or so, and are now up 98 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:51,710 to 56,000-plus a bit for someone in their first-- 99 00:04:51,710 --> 00:04:54,590 just starting out in their first year as a postdoc. 100 00:04:54,590 --> 00:05:02,870 Now while postdocs on these NIH fellowship mechanisms 101 00:05:02,870 --> 00:05:06,200 are expecting can make more now than they did back 102 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,830 in my day, which is some time ago, nonetheless, 103 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:13,110 these numbers are not adjusted for inflation. 104 00:05:13,110 --> 00:05:17,030 And of course, the growing cost of living is a major concern. 105 00:05:17,030 --> 00:05:19,430 And I note, it varies considerably 106 00:05:19,430 --> 00:05:21,260 in different regions and cities, which 107 00:05:21,260 --> 00:05:23,768 I'm guessing are going to-- 108 00:05:23,768 --> 00:05:26,060 some of your comments are going to be surrounding that, 109 00:05:26,060 --> 00:05:28,700 so we're interested to hear about that. 110 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:30,530 All right, so in slide 3, let's look 111 00:05:30,530 --> 00:05:35,570 at postdoc pay in comparison to other job avenues using data 112 00:05:35,570 --> 00:05:38,570 from the National Science Foundation 2021 113 00:05:38,570 --> 00:05:41,060 Survey of Earned Doctorates. 114 00:05:41,060 --> 00:05:44,900 Now here you can see that the median postdoctoral pay 115 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:48,770 is much lower than in other avenues of employment 116 00:05:48,770 --> 00:05:54,390 where graduate students are exiting to. 117 00:05:54,390 --> 00:05:56,880 In fields of particular relevance to NIH, 118 00:05:56,880 --> 00:05:59,850 such as biological and biomedical sciences as well 119 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:04,050 as health sciences, the median first-year salary 120 00:06:04,050 --> 00:06:07,590 for employment is around 90,000 while postdoc pay 121 00:06:07,590 --> 00:06:16,380 hovers at or below the NRSA level in the low $50,000 range. 122 00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:18,930 So recently in response to difficulties 123 00:06:18,930 --> 00:06:22,830 with hiring postdocs and growing concerns around these issues, 124 00:06:22,830 --> 00:06:27,030 institutions, including MIT and St. Jude Children's Research 125 00:06:27,030 --> 00:06:29,940 Hospital, have raised their starting postdoc salaries 126 00:06:29,940 --> 00:06:35,520 to 65,000 and 70,000 respectively. 127 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:38,130 You might have also heard about the University of California 128 00:06:38,130 --> 00:06:41,340 system which has reached a five-year contract 129 00:06:41,340 --> 00:06:45,270 with the Postdoc Union to implement a new salary 130 00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:48,120 scale that will result in average increases 131 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:52,650 of 8% for all postdocs on the scale along with annual pay 132 00:06:52,650 --> 00:06:56,280 increases and experience-based pay increases, 133 00:06:56,280 --> 00:06:57,780 and again, I'm imagining we're going 134 00:06:57,780 --> 00:07:02,250 to hear some comments around these recent changes 135 00:07:02,250 --> 00:07:04,540 from all of you. 136 00:07:04,540 --> 00:07:08,160 So in slide 4, in addition, we certainly 137 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:10,230 note that difficulties for postdocs 138 00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:13,050 extend beyond salary into benefits. 139 00:07:13,050 --> 00:07:15,720 The National Postdoc Association's 140 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:21,750 2021 Institutional Policy Report polled about 200 member 141 00:07:21,750 --> 00:07:25,120 institutions on benefits policies. 142 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:30,180 And as you can see here, only about 30% of institutions 143 00:07:30,180 --> 00:07:33,180 offer the same benefit package to all postdocs, 144 00:07:33,180 --> 00:07:38,280 while many use different metrics, including 145 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:41,880 the postdoc source of funding, connection to their-- 146 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,300 connections to institutional payroll and classification 147 00:07:45,300 --> 00:07:48,390 title to determine benefits coverage. 148 00:07:48,390 --> 00:07:50,340 So it can really vary, and I'm guessing again, 149 00:07:50,340 --> 00:07:54,030 we're going to hear quite a lot from you on these points. 150 00:07:54,030 --> 00:07:56,700 One major point of conversation in the working group 151 00:07:56,700 --> 00:07:59,430 has been this variability, and that it 152 00:07:59,430 --> 00:08:03,030 leaves many postdocs vulnerable to loss of benefits 153 00:08:03,030 --> 00:08:05,940 such as health care in particular 154 00:08:05,940 --> 00:08:12,060 if they secure a grant, which is something of considerable note. 155 00:08:12,060 --> 00:08:15,090 And again, I'm sure we're going to hear from all of you 156 00:08:15,090 --> 00:08:15,810 about that. 157 00:08:15,810 --> 00:08:18,720 We want to thank Tom Kimbis, who's here with us today-- 158 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,400 in a moment you'll hear from him-- 159 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:23,760 for providing these data to the working group. 160 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:28,320 Finally, in slide 5, I just want to bring it all together, 161 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,140 that these data demonstrate the real financial 162 00:08:31,140 --> 00:08:35,190 and logistical constraints on young researchers who 163 00:08:35,190 --> 00:08:39,659 choose to pursue postdoctoral training, which, of course, has 164 00:08:39,659 --> 00:08:41,110 quite a lot of value. 165 00:08:41,110 --> 00:08:44,370 I mean, I really believe that, but there are issues around it 166 00:08:44,370 --> 00:08:46,120 that we want to talk about. 167 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,150 So it's very critical for the working group 168 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:50,880 to carefully consider the experiences and concerns 169 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,420 of postdocs and the biomedical community broadly. 170 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:57,120 So we're very pleased to have you here to share-- 171 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,160 again, share your comments and input. 172 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,460 We want to hear from you. 173 00:09:02,460 --> 00:09:06,480 If you have a question, the question's OK, 174 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,940 but it'd be great if you could add a comment, 175 00:09:08,940 --> 00:09:12,420 add your thoughts, your ideas, your recommendations. 176 00:09:12,420 --> 00:09:14,490 And with that, I'm going to hand it back to Tara 177 00:09:14,490 --> 00:09:18,270 to introduce our speakers before we move to your comments 178 00:09:18,270 --> 00:09:18,915 and ideas. 179 00:09:18,915 --> 00:09:21,247 180 00:09:21,247 --> 00:09:22,080 TARA SCHWETZ: Great. 181 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:23,190 Thanks so much, Shelley. 182 00:09:23,190 --> 00:09:27,270 So we have the pleasure of having four speakers join us 183 00:09:27,270 --> 00:09:30,810 today, and each are going to share their remarks 184 00:09:30,810 --> 00:09:35,020 and perspectives on the topic of compensation and benefits. 185 00:09:35,020 --> 00:09:36,930 So we're going to start off first 186 00:09:36,930 --> 00:09:43,005 with Dr. Krishna Mudumbi, who is an NCI Outstanding Early-Stage 187 00:09:43,005 --> 00:09:45,930 K99 Fellow at the Yale Cancer Biology 188 00:09:45,930 --> 00:09:48,690 institute in the Lab of Mark Lemmon. 189 00:09:48,690 --> 00:09:52,590 And he studies the kinetics of membrane receptor signaling. 190 00:09:52,590 --> 00:09:55,050 During this time at Yale, Krishna 191 00:09:55,050 --> 00:09:57,750 was the Vice Chair of the Yale Black Postdoctoral 192 00:09:57,750 --> 00:09:59,490 Association and chair. 193 00:09:59,490 --> 00:10:01,560 Of the Yale Postdoctoral Association 194 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:04,680 where he successfully advocated for child care stipends, 195 00:10:04,680 --> 00:10:07,740 expanded child care access during the pandemic, 196 00:10:07,740 --> 00:10:10,140 and benefits equity for NIH-funded postdocs. 197 00:10:10,140 --> 00:10:12,810 I understand, just recently stepped down from that role. 198 00:10:12,810 --> 00:10:17,425 So with that, I will turn it over to Krishna. 199 00:10:17,425 --> 00:10:18,550 KRISHNA MUDUMBI: All right. 200 00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:20,217 Thank you so much for that introduction, 201 00:10:20,217 --> 00:10:23,000 and thank you for inviting me to share my thoughts today. 202 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:24,250 I think it's really important. 203 00:10:24,250 --> 00:10:26,380 This topic is really important and it's very near 204 00:10:26,380 --> 00:10:28,520 and dear to my heart as well. 205 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,680 So as Shelley so nicely stated, postdocs have really 206 00:10:32,680 --> 00:10:35,512 been facing a lot of challenges in academia for quite 207 00:10:35,512 --> 00:10:36,970 some time, and this has really been 208 00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:39,550 exacerbated by the pandemic. 209 00:10:39,550 --> 00:10:43,343 We've really all come to know the challenges that we were all 210 00:10:43,343 --> 00:10:45,010 riding through in the beginning, but now 211 00:10:45,010 --> 00:10:48,700 we really are able to clearly focus on these things. 212 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:51,700 And really, I just want to make a point that we're 213 00:10:51,700 --> 00:10:53,590 all very highly trained individuals who 214 00:10:53,590 --> 00:10:56,540 bring valuable skill sets to the scientific endeavor, 215 00:10:56,540 --> 00:10:58,460 and we really should be treated as such. 216 00:10:58,460 --> 00:11:02,290 And I think it's this lack of, for lack of a better word, 217 00:11:02,290 --> 00:11:04,750 respect, that causes this disparity that we 218 00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:08,240 see between postdocs leaving for industry versus those that stay 219 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:10,390 to pursue an academic career. 220 00:11:10,390 --> 00:11:12,520 And this is really where we see this deficit 221 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:14,440 of graduate students as well as postdocs 222 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:17,230 that leave our industry or leave their current positions 223 00:11:17,230 --> 00:11:21,287 as postdocs to go on to industry or other pursuits. 224 00:11:21,287 --> 00:11:23,620 And one of the points I think that was really brought up 225 00:11:23,620 --> 00:11:25,810 was the fact of salary. 226 00:11:25,810 --> 00:11:28,720 A majority of postdocs live in cities or areas 227 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,570 with a very high cost of living, and the NRSA salary, 228 00:11:32,570 --> 00:11:35,350 which is often used as a guideline as a minimum salary 229 00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:39,220 by most universities regardless of their location, 230 00:11:39,220 --> 00:11:41,410 is really making it very difficult for postdocs 231 00:11:41,410 --> 00:11:43,900 to pursue a career in academia. 232 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:46,960 Many postdocs are often also moving across the country 233 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,000 or moving across the world to engage 234 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,532 with their academic pursuits, and it's 235 00:11:51,532 --> 00:11:52,990 very difficult for people like that 236 00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:54,820 to have a support network that is typically 237 00:11:54,820 --> 00:11:57,460 available to a majority of early career professionals. 238 00:11:57,460 --> 00:12:00,250 And this is particularly detrimental to postdoc parents 239 00:12:00,250 --> 00:12:02,230 that don't have a network that can support them 240 00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:04,120 as they raise their children. 241 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:06,340 And really, overall, these disparities, I think, 242 00:12:06,340 --> 00:12:08,260 are most harmful for women, particularly 243 00:12:08,260 --> 00:12:10,870 those that are parents or primary caregivers, 244 00:12:10,870 --> 00:12:13,300 and also postdocs from underrepresented groups. 245 00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:16,340 And I think that if we as a community of researchers, 246 00:12:16,340 --> 00:12:22,150 and if the NIH is truly earnest about retaining our women 247 00:12:22,150 --> 00:12:24,490 scientists and our underrepresented scientists, 248 00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:26,727 and I think we can take some of the following steps, 249 00:12:26,727 --> 00:12:28,060 I think, to really improve this. 250 00:12:28,060 --> 00:12:31,030 And I think the first one is I think to be competitive, 251 00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:35,175 the NIH should really increase the minimum NRSA stipend level, 252 00:12:35,175 --> 00:12:36,550 which is, like I said, often used 253 00:12:36,550 --> 00:12:38,590 as a guideline that the minimum postdoc salaries 254 00:12:38,590 --> 00:12:40,270 by most universities. 255 00:12:40,270 --> 00:12:43,210 And I think the majority of postdocs 256 00:12:43,210 --> 00:12:45,718 typically train in cities with high costs of living, which 257 00:12:45,718 --> 00:12:48,010 really means that we need to start to see salaries that 258 00:12:48,010 --> 00:12:52,660 start at somewhere between 65,000 to 75,000 259 00:12:52,660 --> 00:12:54,372 as our starting salary. 260 00:12:54,372 --> 00:12:56,830 I think the next step that I would really recommend that we 261 00:12:56,830 --> 00:13:00,550 take is that we should have the opportunity for all postdocs 262 00:13:00,550 --> 00:13:04,740 to apply for childcare care funds, not just NRA-funded-- 263 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:06,732 NRSA-funded postdocs. 264 00:13:06,732 --> 00:13:08,690 And I think the stipend should also be doubled. 265 00:13:08,690 --> 00:13:12,030 I think currently it's 2,400 or $2,500 266 00:13:12,030 --> 00:13:14,080 and I think it should be at least $5,000 267 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:17,590 to really offset the costs that postdoc parents typically 268 00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:22,100 face when they have to pay for daycare and after-school care. 269 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:26,110 And finally, I think the NIH should really provide much more 270 00:13:26,110 --> 00:13:29,210 clear wording in terms of NIH-funded postdocs 271 00:13:29,210 --> 00:13:32,290 so that they receive the same benefits as postdocs 272 00:13:32,290 --> 00:13:35,740 that are supported either by their PIs or their institutes. 273 00:13:35,740 --> 00:13:38,620 And this is really penalizing postdocs 274 00:13:38,620 --> 00:13:42,040 that, as Shelley mentioned, are able to get these-- 275 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,658 win these competitive and very prestigious funds, 276 00:13:44,658 --> 00:13:46,450 and I think this would really put everybody 277 00:13:46,450 --> 00:13:47,800 on a much more level playing field 278 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:49,480 and not make us decide whether we really 279 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,150 want to apply for NIH funding or whether we'd rather 280 00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:54,370 be supported by our PIs so that we can have 281 00:13:54,370 --> 00:13:58,090 the benefits that we would have if we were funded 282 00:13:58,090 --> 00:13:59,960 not through the NIH. 283 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,385 So thank you, that's my comment for today. 284 00:14:03,385 --> 00:14:05,010 TARA SCHWETZ: Great, thank you so much. 285 00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:11,040 And next, we'll turn to Dr. Lola Eniola-Adefeso who 286 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,670 is the University Diversity and Social Transformation 287 00:14:14,670 --> 00:14:17,910 Professor of Chemical Engineering, Biomedical 288 00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:20,460 Engineering, and Macromolecular Science 289 00:14:20,460 --> 00:14:22,800 and Engineering at the University of Michigan Ann 290 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:23,730 Arbor. 291 00:14:23,730 --> 00:14:26,100 She is the Associate Dean for Graduate 292 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,950 and Professional Education in the College of Engineering 293 00:14:28,950 --> 00:14:31,830 at the University of Michigan, and Associate Director 294 00:14:31,830 --> 00:14:34,620 of the Cellular Biotechnology Training Program. 295 00:14:34,620 --> 00:14:37,140 And her research interest is understanding 296 00:14:37,140 --> 00:14:40,200 how immune cells are recruited in response to inflammation 297 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,390 and using acquired knowledge to inform 298 00:14:42,390 --> 00:14:46,170 novel vascular-targeted imaging and drug therapy designs. 299 00:14:46,170 --> 00:14:48,415 So I'll turn it over to you, Lola. 300 00:14:48,415 --> 00:14:50,040 LOLA ENIOLA-ADEFESO: Thank you so much. 301 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,860 I think our first speaker, Krishna, 302 00:14:52,860 --> 00:14:57,150 covered a lot of ground in terms of what some of the key issues 303 00:14:57,150 --> 00:15:02,940 are and offered what I thought are practical ideas on how NIH 304 00:15:02,940 --> 00:15:04,770 might approach solving that. 305 00:15:04,770 --> 00:15:09,780 I should say that it is my view that postdoctoral scholars are 306 00:15:09,780 --> 00:15:10,900 professionals. 307 00:15:10,900 --> 00:15:14,350 They have the highest degree in their field. 308 00:15:14,350 --> 00:15:18,720 And so I want to echo that their pay should reflect that. 309 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,410 I think there is a huge demand or pressure 310 00:15:22,410 --> 00:15:27,000 of coming from the industrial market that is essentially 311 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:32,370 taking talent that would have been interested in academia 312 00:15:32,370 --> 00:15:35,280 away simply because of the dollar 313 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,480 difference and the difference in the quality of life 314 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:44,130 that an individual could have as a postdoc versus 315 00:15:44,130 --> 00:15:47,080 employed person in the industry. 316 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:50,610 So I would even push that number offered higher closer 317 00:15:50,610 --> 00:15:52,650 to that graph that you showed. 318 00:15:52,650 --> 00:15:56,910 If in the biomedical sciences, the average number for salary 319 00:15:56,910 --> 00:16:01,170 is 90K, why can't NIH offer compensation? 320 00:16:01,170 --> 00:16:04,530 Let's pay the people what the market rate is. 321 00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:10,260 And I do want to then pivot to this comment 322 00:16:10,260 --> 00:16:16,830 of most postdocs indeed do train in cities with extremely 323 00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:21,300 high cost of living, and one might even 324 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:23,760 suggest that part of that is that we know 325 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:29,370 that only a small handful of institutions in the United 326 00:16:29,370 --> 00:16:32,730 States supply future faculty, which is driving 327 00:16:32,730 --> 00:16:36,660 the movement of postdoctoral scholars 328 00:16:36,660 --> 00:16:43,870 to a handful of cities that are also very expensive cities. 329 00:16:43,870 --> 00:16:46,560 And so I think there is work, actually, 330 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,840 that NIH could do in that space to help 331 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,960 the discipline recognize that there 332 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:59,550 is cutting-edge phenomenal research being done 333 00:16:59,550 --> 00:17:03,330 across the United States in areas that 334 00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:06,369 offer good quality of life. 335 00:17:06,369 --> 00:17:08,609 And so maybe even pay structure that 336 00:17:08,609 --> 00:17:15,520 are mapped onto the cost of living in different places. 337 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,710 Why don't we pay postdocs higher? 338 00:17:19,710 --> 00:17:24,480 Part of that is the expectation that postdocs 339 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:30,480 are spending more and more time in this holding pad, six years. 340 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:32,500 Is that where we want it to be? 341 00:17:32,500 --> 00:17:35,250 I think that has to be part of the conversation. 342 00:17:35,250 --> 00:17:42,330 And the structure by which NIH offers those fellowships 343 00:17:42,330 --> 00:17:44,880 creates uncertainty for what would 344 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:48,690 be talent that are coming from underrepresented backgrounds, 345 00:17:48,690 --> 00:17:51,210 talent that are coming from low-income backgrounds. 346 00:17:51,210 --> 00:17:55,320 The long runway of six-plus years holding pad 347 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,620 where you don't have job security, 348 00:17:58,620 --> 00:18:03,630 where you don't have retirement benefits, all of those things 349 00:18:03,630 --> 00:18:11,310 make the decision easier for folks to go in the industry. 350 00:18:11,310 --> 00:18:15,850 And so that has to be part of the conversation as well, 351 00:18:15,850 --> 00:18:16,650 I think. 352 00:18:16,650 --> 00:18:20,430 In what ways can we allow postdoctoral scholars 353 00:18:20,430 --> 00:18:28,050 to start building those funds, retirement structure that 354 00:18:28,050 --> 00:18:31,240 essentially brings equity to them in those roles? 355 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,260 If we think that postdoctoral training is 356 00:18:34,260 --> 00:18:36,990 critical to the research enterprise in the United 357 00:18:36,990 --> 00:18:39,210 States, then we need to incentivize 358 00:18:39,210 --> 00:18:40,860 that the folks who are interested 359 00:18:40,860 --> 00:18:45,960 to be able to do so without giving up earning power 360 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:47,880 because they chose this way. 361 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:53,280 So science should not be the career 362 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,120 that you choose and then you end up being poor, 363 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:00,150 which is essentially how we're structuring it. 364 00:19:00,150 --> 00:19:04,910 The uncertainty of how long you're in the training 365 00:19:04,910 --> 00:19:08,550 and whether you might even get a position at the end of it, 366 00:19:08,550 --> 00:19:11,030 NIH could do something in that space 367 00:19:11,030 --> 00:19:14,180 as well, which I think it's coupled to the compensation. 368 00:19:14,180 --> 00:19:16,670 The fellowship structure, when are 369 00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:21,530 we awarding this fellowship, why not move it earlier? 370 00:19:21,530 --> 00:19:23,840 Follow the NSF model where people 371 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:25,880 bring in their own fellowships. 372 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,580 That might help with some of these issues 373 00:19:28,580 --> 00:19:31,730 around compensation, et cetera. 374 00:19:31,730 --> 00:19:33,360 So I will stop there. 375 00:19:33,360 --> 00:19:35,630 Thank you so much for inviting me. 376 00:19:35,630 --> 00:19:38,830 377 00:19:38,830 --> 00:19:40,750 TARA SCHWETZ: Thank you so much. 378 00:19:40,750 --> 00:19:44,235 All right, we will shift to our third speaker, Dr. Tori 379 00:19:44,235 --> 00:19:47,880 Osinski, who is a F32-funded postdoctoral fellow 380 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,350 at the University of Minnesota. 381 00:19:49,350 --> 00:19:51,510 And her research is at the intersection 382 00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:54,240 of autoimmunity and cardiovascular disease. 383 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,610 She is here on behalf of Minnesota's Postdoctoral 384 00:19:56,610 --> 00:19:59,220 Association, which has been working extensively 385 00:19:59,220 --> 00:20:01,650 with the administration to advance 386 00:20:01,650 --> 00:20:05,350 salary and benefits for postdocs at its institution. 387 00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:07,423 So Tori, turning it over to you. 388 00:20:07,423 --> 00:20:08,340 TORI OSINSKI: Awesome. 389 00:20:08,340 --> 00:20:10,423 Thank you, Tara, and to the rest of the organizers 390 00:20:10,423 --> 00:20:13,537 for this opportunity to speak with you all today. 391 00:20:13,537 --> 00:20:15,120 I think a lot of what I'm going to say 392 00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:17,078 is going to echo the first two, and hopefully I 393 00:20:17,078 --> 00:20:19,860 can inject a couple extra details 394 00:20:19,860 --> 00:20:23,520 just so that everybody gets a clear picture of what 395 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,740 is going on and where we think things should go. 396 00:20:26,740 --> 00:20:27,600 So to start out. 397 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,160 Postdoc salaries are low and often lack 398 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,900 appropriate yearly merit-based and cost-of-living adjustments. 399 00:20:33,900 --> 00:20:36,600 Unfortunately, this lack of pay coupled 400 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,820 with a number of other factors that make starting in 401 00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:42,910 or remaining in a postdoctoral position even more difficult. 402 00:20:42,910 --> 00:20:45,630 These challenges begin with the increased time required 403 00:20:45,630 --> 00:20:48,420 to graduate from a PhD to publish, 404 00:20:48,420 --> 00:20:51,870 to publish more as a postdoc, to find your open faculty 405 00:20:51,870 --> 00:20:54,270 positions, and then also to obtain those open faculty 406 00:20:54,270 --> 00:20:58,080 positions as I think Lola highlighted well. 407 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,450 With this extended timeline, many postdocs 408 00:21:00,450 --> 00:21:02,820 are older and seeking to be more established 409 00:21:02,820 --> 00:21:05,980 in other aspects of their lives. 410 00:21:05,980 --> 00:21:08,550 And so this lower pay means that individuals 411 00:21:08,550 --> 00:21:11,910 will struggle longer with increased costs of childcare, 412 00:21:11,910 --> 00:21:14,890 housing, and many other essential costs. 413 00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:17,910 This means our life savings, our investment opportunities, 414 00:21:17,910 --> 00:21:21,000 our capacity to start a family, or purchase our first home, 415 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,010 and more continue to fall further 416 00:21:23,010 --> 00:21:25,380 and further behind our peers who choose 417 00:21:25,380 --> 00:21:29,340 not to pursue this career path. 418 00:21:29,340 --> 00:21:32,850 Growing evidence also shows that this lack of financial support 419 00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:35,430 continues to reduce retention of historically 420 00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:36,943 excluded populations in research, 421 00:21:36,943 --> 00:21:38,610 as I think has been highlighted already, 422 00:21:38,610 --> 00:21:40,568 and I think is a really, really important thing 423 00:21:40,568 --> 00:21:43,230 to keep in mind. 424 00:21:43,230 --> 00:21:46,260 Furthermore, I think this transient training-oriented 425 00:21:46,260 --> 00:21:48,780 nature of a postdoc position means 426 00:21:48,780 --> 00:21:51,588 that the following benefits are often lacking from institutions 427 00:21:51,588 --> 00:21:53,130 and I think this is something that we 428 00:21:53,130 --> 00:21:54,700 could pay more attention to. 429 00:21:54,700 --> 00:21:59,010 So these benefits include the status of a full employee. 430 00:21:59,010 --> 00:22:01,290 For example, I'm a T30-- 431 00:22:01,290 --> 00:22:04,650 or an F32 recipient here at Minnesota, and because of that, 432 00:22:04,650 --> 00:22:07,410 I'm a non-employee at the university and lack of access 433 00:22:07,410 --> 00:22:09,580 to a lot of resources. 434 00:22:09,580 --> 00:22:12,090 I don't have access, like many other situations, 435 00:22:12,090 --> 00:22:14,700 to retirement accounts, along with contributions 436 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:17,370 to those accounts by employers. 437 00:22:17,370 --> 00:22:19,350 And there's also a lack of access 438 00:22:19,350 --> 00:22:21,300 to adequate and consistent health insurance 439 00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:25,860 plans that could be dictated by your job code and funding 440 00:22:25,860 --> 00:22:28,350 situation. 441 00:22:28,350 --> 00:22:30,480 After consulting with other leaders 442 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:32,280 in our postdoc association, some of 443 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:34,320 the NIH-centric considerations we 444 00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:38,160 wanted to share during the session are as follows. 445 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,010 Current grant mechanisms allow institutions 446 00:22:41,010 --> 00:22:42,750 to designate fellowship recipients 447 00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:46,560 as non-institutional employees, as I touched on. 448 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,270 While receiving these fellowships 449 00:22:48,270 --> 00:22:51,000 is a highly sought after and respected accomplishment, 450 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,860 it often creates further challenges 451 00:22:52,860 --> 00:22:57,750 for postdocs who may have to change their health insurance, 452 00:22:57,750 --> 00:23:00,570 lose access to institutional resources like daycare, 453 00:23:00,570 --> 00:23:05,310 parking, retirement accounts, and adjust to altered taxation 454 00:23:05,310 --> 00:23:09,480 processes as well, which are often without needed advice 455 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:11,640 and expertise. 456 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,890 Beyond fellowship recipients, though, there 457 00:23:13,890 --> 00:23:15,600 are a number of postdocs whose salaries 458 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,520 are paid for by other NIH grants, 459 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,970 such as R01s and those sorts. 460 00:23:20,970 --> 00:23:24,450 And they do not receive a salary that meets the NRSA scale. 461 00:23:24,450 --> 00:23:27,210 Institutions dictate postdoctoral salaries, 462 00:23:27,210 --> 00:23:30,690 and many principal investigators encounter resistance 463 00:23:30,690 --> 00:23:33,390 when trying to increase their postdoctoral salaries. 464 00:23:33,390 --> 00:23:34,980 And so there seems to be a disconnect 465 00:23:34,980 --> 00:23:38,760 between the institution and them communicating with the NIH 466 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,400 and understanding the scale that they've set. 467 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,390 So I have three proposals for how we could try 468 00:23:45,390 --> 00:23:47,440 to address these challenges. 469 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,800 The first is to increase pay and incorporate 470 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,750 cost-of-living adjustments. 471 00:23:51,750 --> 00:23:55,530 The continued small incremental increases in pay that we see 472 00:23:55,530 --> 00:23:57,120 leave many frustrated with the low pay 473 00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:59,580 standard set for postdocs. 474 00:23:59,580 --> 00:24:02,670 Two, we'd like to see that the rules that 475 00:24:02,670 --> 00:24:05,010 allow grant mechanisms to designate individuals 476 00:24:05,010 --> 00:24:08,790 as non-institutional employees, we'd like to see that change. 477 00:24:08,790 --> 00:24:10,470 I think that creates a lot of the issues 478 00:24:10,470 --> 00:24:13,720 that we struggle with related to compensation and benefits. 479 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:16,890 And then finally, we'd love for the NIH 480 00:24:16,890 --> 00:24:19,920 to provide requirements that institutions adhere 481 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,760 to base salaries, annual cost-of-living adjustments, 482 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:29,100 and merit-based raises that if they are receiving NIH grants. 483 00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:31,020 So hopefully that wasn't too much all at once, 484 00:24:31,020 --> 00:24:33,540 but thank you for your time and consideration. 485 00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:35,490 I'm grateful for this opportunity 486 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:38,677 and look forward to hearing everyone else's comments. 487 00:24:38,677 --> 00:24:39,510 TARA SCHWETZ: Great. 488 00:24:39,510 --> 00:24:41,150 Thanks so much. 489 00:24:41,150 --> 00:24:44,570 Our final speaker for today is Dr. Andrew Campbell 490 00:24:44,570 --> 00:24:47,660 who is a Professor of Medical Science at Brown University 491 00:24:47,660 --> 00:24:49,910 in Providence, Rhode Island. 492 00:24:49,910 --> 00:24:53,570 He served as the 15th Dean of Brown's Graduate School 493 00:24:53,570 --> 00:24:57,620 overseeing the training of unionized and non-unionized 494 00:24:57,620 --> 00:25:01,070 advanced degree students in more than 55 graduate programs 495 00:25:01,070 --> 00:25:03,530 and 34 academic departments. 496 00:25:03,530 --> 00:25:07,550 He is director and PI of Brown's NIH-funded Initiative 497 00:25:07,550 --> 00:25:12,200 to Maximize Student Development Program for PhD Students. 498 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,280 And is Co-Director Co-PI of Brown's NIH-funded Prep 499 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:17,660 Baccalaureate Program. 500 00:25:17,660 --> 00:25:21,470 He's also a AAAS Fellow, an ASCB Fellow, 501 00:25:21,470 --> 00:25:23,490 and has served on a number of boards, 502 00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:26,180 including serving as the Chair of the Board of Directors 503 00:25:26,180 --> 00:25:28,055 of the Council of Graduate Schools. 504 00:25:28,055 --> 00:25:30,035 So I will turn it over to you now, Andrew. 505 00:25:30,035 --> 00:25:31,160 ANDREW CAMPBELL: OK, great. 506 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,970 Great, thank you very much, everyone. 507 00:25:32,970 --> 00:25:36,020 I'm actually in Asia and I hope my internet connection is not 508 00:25:36,020 --> 00:25:38,520 unstable, so please forgive me if it is. 509 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,150 So first of all, I want to thank the organizers 510 00:25:41,150 --> 00:25:43,700 for the invitation, and I want to thank all of you 511 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:47,210 for being here to discuss this important topic. 512 00:25:47,210 --> 00:25:48,710 I want to start out by saying, there 513 00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:49,820 are going to be some comments that I 514 00:25:49,820 --> 00:25:52,280 make that are my own comments and not necessarily the views 515 00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,200 or positions of my institution, and I 516 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:55,880 think that's an important thing to note. 517 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,430 So there are going to be places where I cite what we actually 518 00:25:58,430 --> 00:26:03,770 do at my institutions, but I will include some opinions that 519 00:26:03,770 --> 00:26:06,170 are my own opinions. 520 00:26:06,170 --> 00:26:07,723 From the three previous speakers, 521 00:26:07,723 --> 00:26:09,890 it's clear that there are some universal themes that 522 00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:14,990 are expressed here, so I'm going to try not to be too redundant. 523 00:26:14,990 --> 00:26:17,000 Now as Dean of the Graduate School 524 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,190 and thinking about postdoctoral fellows, 525 00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:20,750 I think it's safe to say that what 526 00:26:20,750 --> 00:26:23,480 we see amongst graduate students often 527 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:26,145 foreshadows what we will see in the future 528 00:26:26,145 --> 00:26:27,770 when we look at the postdoctoral ranks. 529 00:26:27,770 --> 00:26:30,560 So just as the undergraduate population 530 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,397 represents a four-year preview of the future 531 00:26:32,397 --> 00:26:34,730 of the graduate ranks and a look at the graduate student 532 00:26:34,730 --> 00:26:37,730 population also provides for a preview 533 00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:42,570 of what the near-future of the postdoc ranks will look like. 534 00:26:42,570 --> 00:26:44,330 Again, I don't want to be too redundant, 535 00:26:44,330 --> 00:26:46,890 but just very briefly I want to make a couple of points. 536 00:26:46,890 --> 00:26:49,370 First, I want to talk about work-life balance. 537 00:26:49,370 --> 00:26:51,380 Thinking about supporting those who are birth 538 00:26:51,380 --> 00:26:54,600 and adopting parents and elder care providers. 539 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,830 So each year, we obviously see more and more individuals 540 00:26:57,830 --> 00:27:00,440 in the graduate ranks with children 541 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,770 who are elder care providers, having responsibilities 542 00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:06,740 for those who are not necessarily 543 00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:08,150 pursuing the careers they are. 544 00:27:08,150 --> 00:27:10,710 These individuals eventually flow into the postdoc ranks, 545 00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:12,950 and so they remain as non-employees 546 00:27:12,950 --> 00:27:15,980 and they don't qualify for the employee benefits or employee 547 00:27:15,980 --> 00:27:19,350 plans that traditional university employees do. 548 00:27:19,350 --> 00:27:23,210 And so as the number of trainees who have this responsibility 549 00:27:23,210 --> 00:27:24,932 increases in the postdoctoral ranks, 550 00:27:24,932 --> 00:27:26,390 I think serious consideration needs 551 00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:30,390 to be given to their needs. 552 00:27:30,390 --> 00:27:32,693 Some institutions have made efforts, 553 00:27:32,693 --> 00:27:34,610 and sometimes these are a little bit difficult 554 00:27:34,610 --> 00:27:38,990 because even though some postdocs can be granted access 555 00:27:38,990 --> 00:27:43,250 to employee programs, there are tax consequences, federal IRS 556 00:27:43,250 --> 00:27:45,200 complications that make it difficult 557 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,500 for other institutions to actually do that. 558 00:27:49,500 --> 00:27:51,260 So what we actually have done at Brown 559 00:27:51,260 --> 00:27:53,630 is that we actually provide paid time off 560 00:27:53,630 --> 00:27:57,080 for graduate students who are birth and adoptive parents. 561 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,010 Now I know not all institutions can do this, 562 00:27:59,010 --> 00:28:01,940 so maybe one can consider how we can support institutions 563 00:28:01,940 --> 00:28:06,170 that can't do this and encourage those who can do it to do that. 564 00:28:06,170 --> 00:28:07,880 We have a parental relief policy. 565 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:09,320 In that policy, graduate students 566 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,360 who are in good standing, who are supported by stipend-- 567 00:28:13,360 --> 00:28:16,130 so you can imagine, this might be true also for postdocs, 568 00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:17,960 they're eligible for parental relief 569 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,720 for the care of newborn infants or adopted children up 570 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,710 to the age of six. 571 00:28:23,710 --> 00:28:26,950 Our students can request parental leave up to two times 572 00:28:26,950 --> 00:28:29,500 during their tenure as students. 573 00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:34,660 And instances where co-parents are both students, or could 574 00:28:34,660 --> 00:28:37,990 be postdocs, both parents are eligible for parental relief, 575 00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:42,620 and this relief provides a stipend for a period of time, 576 00:28:42,620 --> 00:28:46,160 and you can imagine, that would be the semester or summer. 577 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:48,190 In addition to that parental relief, 578 00:28:48,190 --> 00:28:49,930 we also provide childcare subsidy, 579 00:28:49,930 --> 00:28:54,370 which really helps to provide funding and costs 580 00:28:54,370 --> 00:28:57,010 for degree-seeking students by granting them 581 00:28:57,010 --> 00:29:00,280 awards up to about $5,000 a year per child for up to three 582 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,970 children for those who have a total adjusted household 583 00:29:03,970 --> 00:29:06,310 income, I think, of about 100,000 or so, 584 00:29:06,310 --> 00:29:08,020 so that's sort of the limit. 585 00:29:08,020 --> 00:29:10,480 That subsidy is going to cover childcare 586 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,410 for dependents between the ages of zero and six, 587 00:29:14,410 --> 00:29:16,630 and it's going to vary from family to family and year 588 00:29:16,630 --> 00:29:19,030 to year really depending on the family's financial need 589 00:29:19,030 --> 00:29:20,610 of range. 590 00:29:20,610 --> 00:29:23,570 And there's also a backup care. 591 00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:28,250 We provide backup care for those who are taking care 592 00:29:28,250 --> 00:29:33,260 of children, and that care really helps when a child 593 00:29:33,260 --> 00:29:35,510 cannot go to daycare, a daycare is closed, 594 00:29:35,510 --> 00:29:38,282 the school is closed, when a child is sick or is under 595 00:29:38,282 --> 00:29:39,740 the weather, or it covers holidays. 596 00:29:39,740 --> 00:29:41,365 So these are things that I think really 597 00:29:41,365 --> 00:29:43,190 need to be considered as we think about how 598 00:29:43,190 --> 00:29:45,700 we support child care needs and benefits 599 00:29:45,700 --> 00:29:50,090 of postdoctoral fellows. 600 00:29:50,090 --> 00:29:52,670 And also, we provide a subsidy when 601 00:29:52,670 --> 00:29:54,800 it comes to insurance coverage. 602 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:57,080 We provide as much as 75% subsidy 603 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:02,060 on the cost of enrolling dependents in health insurance 604 00:30:02,060 --> 00:30:02,640 programs. 605 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,932 So that's something that really needs to be considered. 606 00:30:04,932 --> 00:30:07,550 And that's up to the age of 26 before a child becomes 607 00:30:07,550 --> 00:30:11,570 a non-dependent, so those are important factors. 608 00:30:11,570 --> 00:30:13,220 Now the one area I want to comment on, 609 00:30:13,220 --> 00:30:15,950 I think this is more where I make my own statement, 610 00:30:15,950 --> 00:30:18,350 and this is in the area of compensation and HR management 611 00:30:18,350 --> 00:30:21,000 and the area of increasing unionization. 612 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,180 So I was the first graduate dean to oversee 613 00:30:23,180 --> 00:30:25,430 unionization in the Graduate School at Brown. 614 00:30:25,430 --> 00:30:27,980 And so graduate students are one part training, 615 00:30:27,980 --> 00:30:31,070 one part student, one part activist, if you will. 616 00:30:31,070 --> 00:30:33,920 And more graduate students exist today 617 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,130 than they did five years ago. 618 00:30:35,130 --> 00:30:38,300 And so we really need to think about is these individuals 619 00:30:38,300 --> 00:30:41,520 flow into the postdoc ranks, what are we going to do? 620 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,265 How do we manage if a postdoc employee strikes? 621 00:30:44,265 --> 00:30:46,640 What are the obligations that the federal government will 622 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,910 assume as funded with regards to training compensation 623 00:30:49,910 --> 00:30:51,380 during strikes? 624 00:30:51,380 --> 00:30:54,320 Striking postdoctoral fellows affect research productivity, 625 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,020 and even in the case of IRACDA Fellows, 626 00:30:57,020 --> 00:31:00,350 it can affect teaching at multiple institutions. 627 00:31:00,350 --> 00:31:03,290 And when we also think about those places 628 00:31:03,290 --> 00:31:04,970 where there are postdoctoral units where 629 00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:08,450 we do see salary increases, sometimes those increases 630 00:31:08,450 --> 00:31:11,237 are greater than the increase we see in the compensation NIH 631 00:31:11,237 --> 00:31:12,320 provides to those fellows. 632 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,290 So we have this gap, this unfunded mandate, 633 00:31:15,290 --> 00:31:20,210 this gap that must be picked up by PIs or by the institutions. 634 00:31:20,210 --> 00:31:22,070 And that puts a strain on PI grants 635 00:31:22,070 --> 00:31:24,170 and institutional resources. 636 00:31:24,170 --> 00:31:26,990 And that could actually threaten the size 637 00:31:26,990 --> 00:31:28,910 of our postdoc populations. 638 00:31:28,910 --> 00:31:31,770 Now not all institutions have the capacity to cover that gap, 639 00:31:31,770 --> 00:31:34,760 and so that's where the concern really is. 640 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,650 And also, I think as more institutions 641 00:31:36,650 --> 00:31:42,020 recognize postdoctoral unions, are postdocs tied more 642 00:31:42,020 --> 00:31:45,140 to the institutions or to specific advisors 643 00:31:45,140 --> 00:31:45,920 or laboratories? 644 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:51,110 And so NIH really has to really determine the responsible party 645 00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:53,030 when it comes to grant-related work and work 646 00:31:53,030 --> 00:31:55,790 progress being affected by those sort of events. 647 00:31:55,790 --> 00:31:58,610 So you think about benefits, you think about 648 00:31:58,610 --> 00:32:01,730 support for postdocs-- and again, I 649 00:32:01,730 --> 00:32:05,210 want to refer back to looking at the graduate student population 650 00:32:05,210 --> 00:32:07,580 because I think we'll see a lot of changes 651 00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:10,400 in what the needs are and what the pressures are 652 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,170 on the federal system. 653 00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:14,780 So I'll stop there. 654 00:32:14,780 --> 00:32:17,010 And again, if there are additional questions, 655 00:32:17,010 --> 00:32:18,080 I'm happy to answer them. 656 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:21,067 657 00:32:21,067 --> 00:32:21,900 TARA SCHWETZ: Great. 658 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,540 Thank you so much to all four of you 659 00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:28,230 for providing those really insightful comments. 660 00:32:28,230 --> 00:32:30,900 We're now going to open the floor 661 00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:33,330 to all the comments from everyone 662 00:32:33,330 --> 00:32:38,520 else who is on the line, all about 400 or so of you. 663 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,290 As noted at the beginning of the meeting, 664 00:32:40,290 --> 00:32:42,750 please share your input using the Q&A function. 665 00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:44,200 Many of you already have. 666 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,730 We've already gotten over 50-some-odd comments coming 667 00:32:47,730 --> 00:32:49,560 through. 668 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:54,240 And you can provide your comment directly or a general topic 669 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,800 of your comment. 670 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,400 The facilitators, Emily and Tom, will then 671 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:03,660 invite specific participants by name to share their thought. 672 00:33:03,660 --> 00:33:06,120 And once invited, the host will enable that person 673 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,570 to unmute and share their common out loud. 674 00:33:08,570 --> 00:33:11,370 Now we expect to have more comments 675 00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:15,480 than we can address today, so we ask that each participant limit 676 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,580 their comments to about one to two minutes 677 00:33:17,580 --> 00:33:21,520 so that we can hear from as many of you as possible. 678 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,180 If you wish for the facilitators to read your comment out 679 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:27,120 loud, please note that in the Q&A function 680 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:29,340 and they will be pleased to do so. 681 00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:32,950 Alternatively, if you prefer to comment anonymously, 682 00:33:32,950 --> 00:33:35,880 please use the Anonymous option in the Q&A function 683 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:38,730 and one of the facilitators will read it aloud 684 00:33:38,730 --> 00:33:40,530 without attribution. 685 00:33:40,530 --> 00:33:43,590 So now I am going to turn it over to Tom 686 00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:46,028 to go through the comments. 687 00:33:46,028 --> 00:33:47,070 TOM KIMBIS: Thanks, Tara. 688 00:33:47,070 --> 00:33:51,240 And just before we start, a blanket apology if we-- 689 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,200 Emily and I, if either one of us mispronounced your name, 690 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,840 we're just reading off of your comments. 691 00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,320 So apologies in advance if we do so. 692 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,070 And also, we'll be looking at these questions real-time, 693 00:34:05,070 --> 00:34:12,030 so with the volume of questions and comments coming in, 694 00:34:12,030 --> 00:34:15,203 we may have a couple of ones slip through the cracks, 695 00:34:15,203 --> 00:34:17,620 but hopefully we'll get to you as many as we possibly can. 696 00:34:17,620 --> 00:34:20,130 So we'll start off with an anonymous one 697 00:34:20,130 --> 00:34:23,760 who states, my concern is that if the NIH is serious 698 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,250 about increasing diversity in academia, 699 00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:30,000 and by having such low salaries for grad students and postdocs, 700 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,489 we're selecting for people who can afford 701 00:34:32,489 --> 00:34:35,429 to stay in these underpaid positions for so long 702 00:34:35,429 --> 00:34:38,219 rather than the brightest, most innovative, et cetera. 703 00:34:38,219 --> 00:34:42,420 NIH recognizes low SES as an underrepresented group, 704 00:34:42,420 --> 00:34:44,860 and yet it seems like the only people who can, quote, 705 00:34:44,860 --> 00:34:47,190 "make it" in academia are ones who 706 00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:51,030 have a hefty financial support system. 707 00:34:51,030 --> 00:34:53,420 So with that comment, I'll turn it over to-- 708 00:34:53,420 --> 00:34:54,732 back to Emily. 709 00:34:54,732 --> 00:34:55,940 EMILY MILLER: Thank you, Tom. 710 00:34:55,940 --> 00:34:58,820 We have another anonymous comment about the variability 711 00:34:58,820 --> 00:34:59,900 in stipends. 712 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:02,450 My HR pushes back on stipend raises 713 00:35:02,450 --> 00:35:05,120 and I've not received a raise since 2020. 714 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,220 Starting postdocs make more than I do. 715 00:35:07,220 --> 00:35:10,700 It doesn't feel fair that there are such discrepancies when 716 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:12,230 I'm paid off an NIH grant. 717 00:35:12,230 --> 00:35:14,960 I submitted the F32 and did not get it 718 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,370 despite favorable comments. 719 00:35:17,370 --> 00:35:19,670 Thank you for expressing your lived experience, 720 00:35:19,670 --> 00:35:23,517 we will bring that back to the working group. 721 00:35:23,517 --> 00:35:24,600 TOM KIMBIS: Thanks, Emily. 722 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,880 The next question we have, or comment, 723 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:28,930 is in regard to child care. 724 00:35:28,930 --> 00:35:32,635 And it's from Monica Vasiliu. 725 00:35:32,635 --> 00:35:34,260 And if you're there, Monica, you should 726 00:35:34,260 --> 00:35:38,110 be able to unmute and ask your question. 727 00:35:38,110 --> 00:35:41,160 AUDIENCE: Thank you for this session. 728 00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,760 One issue we have is we receive 2,500 729 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,430 for each trainee every year beginning last year, 730 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:50,010 and not all trainees have children. 731 00:35:50,010 --> 00:35:53,490 Do you use those funds only for the trainees 732 00:35:53,490 --> 00:35:56,040 which actually have children instead of sending 733 00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,075 the funds back to NIH? 734 00:35:57,075 --> 00:36:03,850 735 00:36:03,850 --> 00:36:06,010 Hello? 736 00:36:06,010 --> 00:36:07,610 TOM KIMBIS: Yes. 737 00:36:07,610 --> 00:36:12,850 Thank you-- thank you for your comment, and it's something, 738 00:36:12,850 --> 00:36:14,698 of course, we'll be thinking of. 739 00:36:14,698 --> 00:36:16,990 Something we've heard already from some of our speakers 740 00:36:16,990 --> 00:36:19,360 today, we'll be taking it up and discussing in the working 741 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:20,985 group, so thank you very much for that. 742 00:36:20,985 --> 00:36:24,230 AUDIENCE: And I have one other question if I can speak. 743 00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:26,208 TOM KIMBIS: Sure, go ahead. 744 00:36:26,208 --> 00:36:26,750 AUDIENCE: OK. 745 00:36:26,750 --> 00:36:29,630 So some of the postdocs have to move 746 00:36:29,630 --> 00:36:32,930 from one part of the country to another part of the country, 747 00:36:32,930 --> 00:36:37,160 and they need funds for-- like moving expenses. 748 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:40,610 Well, the stipends-- I mean, would you 749 00:36:40,610 --> 00:36:46,660 consider to support moving expenses as well? 750 00:36:46,660 --> 00:36:48,880 TOM KIMBIS: Well, thank you for that, and just-- 751 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,720 thank you, Monica. 752 00:36:49,720 --> 00:36:52,600 And it just is a reminder, so this is-- 753 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:53,740 your questions are welcome. 754 00:36:53,740 --> 00:36:56,350 Comments even more so since this is intended 755 00:36:56,350 --> 00:36:57,405 as a listening session. 756 00:36:57,405 --> 00:36:59,530 We'll be listening and taking this information back 757 00:36:59,530 --> 00:37:02,560 as a working group and capture all of this information 758 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,020 and discuss it within the group, but we won't be 759 00:37:05,020 --> 00:37:06,850 answering the questions here. 760 00:37:06,850 --> 00:37:07,450 But thank you. 761 00:37:07,450 --> 00:37:08,283 AUDIENCE: Thank you. 762 00:37:08,283 --> 00:37:09,250 Thank you. 763 00:37:09,250 --> 00:37:10,450 TOM KIMBIS: Absolutely. 764 00:37:10,450 --> 00:37:11,480 Emily? 765 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:12,370 EMILY MILLER: Yes. 766 00:37:12,370 --> 00:37:15,250 We have a real distinction and a comment 767 00:37:15,250 --> 00:37:17,980 here about training versus an employment. 768 00:37:17,980 --> 00:37:20,230 Anonymously submitted, I think we 769 00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:22,510 need to stop comparing postdoc compensation 770 00:37:22,510 --> 00:37:23,560 to other employment. 771 00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,870 A postdoc is not supposed to be a career. 772 00:37:25,870 --> 00:37:27,790 It should be a step towards a career. 773 00:37:27,790 --> 00:37:30,870 I believe reduced compensation is reasonable, as long as 774 00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:33,940 is paired with corresponding training that sets up 775 00:37:33,940 --> 00:37:35,890 a successful career transition. 776 00:37:35,890 --> 00:37:39,320 This is why medical residents receive decreased compensation. 777 00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:40,900 They are receiving critical training 778 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:43,510 that will establish their careers and subsequent higher 779 00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:44,110 earnings. 780 00:37:44,110 --> 00:37:47,890 We would benefit by talking about postdoc positions 781 00:37:47,890 --> 00:37:50,980 in a similar way. 782 00:37:50,980 --> 00:37:51,700 Thank you. 783 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:54,260 784 00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:58,010 TOM KIMBIS: And we have another anonymous comment in regard 785 00:37:58,010 --> 00:38:01,160 to benefits and protections. 786 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,800 Look to labor unions representing postdocs 787 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,350 and graduate student workers as models 788 00:38:06,350 --> 00:38:09,170 for addressing the needs of early career researchers. 789 00:38:09,170 --> 00:38:11,600 Compensation is important, but so are 790 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,940 protections against discrimination, 791 00:38:13,940 --> 00:38:16,220 support for parents and people who 792 00:38:16,220 --> 00:38:19,730 are pregnant and lactating, and many, many other 793 00:38:19,730 --> 00:38:21,890 more rights, protections, and benefits. 794 00:38:21,890 --> 00:38:23,840 So thank you very much for that comment. 795 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:26,840 Again, that's a theme I think we've seen throughout this-- 796 00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,090 the beginning of this session and in discussions 797 00:38:29,090 --> 00:38:33,130 we've had already with the working group, so thank you. 798 00:38:33,130 --> 00:38:34,630 TOM KIMBIS: Some general points have 799 00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:37,150 been raised about advancement. 800 00:38:37,150 --> 00:38:40,720 About 25 to 30 years ago, almost all PhDs 801 00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:43,760 were assured a good role in academia, industry, 802 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,280 and were considered experts. 803 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:48,160 In the current era, there are way too many PhDs, 804 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,300 and greater than 75% of them are in limbo. 805 00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,240 This accounts for lower pay, no benefits, and finally, 806 00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:58,390 being treated like trainees when they are really experts. 807 00:38:58,390 --> 00:39:01,630 All of them may have equal expertise, 808 00:39:01,630 --> 00:39:03,760 but it is important to value the efforts 809 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,610 and treat all postdocs the way they are meant to be treated. 810 00:39:06,610 --> 00:39:09,730 This is the best way forward according to me. 811 00:39:09,730 --> 00:39:10,390 Thank you. 812 00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:12,190 This was a theme that has been expressed 813 00:39:12,190 --> 00:39:14,170 in a number of our working group discussions 814 00:39:14,170 --> 00:39:15,970 and across the listening sessions. 815 00:39:15,970 --> 00:39:17,170 Tom? 816 00:39:17,170 --> 00:39:19,222 I think we'll be recognizing Leslie? 817 00:39:19,222 --> 00:39:19,930 TOM KIMBIS: Yeah. 818 00:39:19,930 --> 00:39:20,430 Thanks. 819 00:39:20,430 --> 00:39:22,510 Thanks, Emily. 820 00:39:22,510 --> 00:39:26,890 Leslie Vosshall, if you'd like to unmute, the floor is yours. 821 00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:27,640 AUDIENCE: Perfect. 822 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,807 Thank you so much for holding the listening sessions 823 00:39:29,807 --> 00:39:31,030 and elevating all the voices. 824 00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:33,670 825 00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:36,100 So I work for HHMI and we're very 826 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:38,170 excited that these discussions are happening. 827 00:39:38,170 --> 00:39:41,410 We do feel like getting the minimum across the country 828 00:39:41,410 --> 00:39:46,090 to 65 to 70,000 will be essential for the continued 829 00:39:46,090 --> 00:39:48,790 sustainability of academic science in the United States, 830 00:39:48,790 --> 00:39:51,370 and so that that's my comment. 831 00:39:51,370 --> 00:39:54,860 And so my question is, unfunded mandates don't work, 832 00:39:54,860 --> 00:39:56,440 and so have there been discussions-- 833 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,540 difficult discussions at NIH for how you're 834 00:39:58,540 --> 00:40:04,120 going to fund the gap given that money doesn't grow on trees 835 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:07,160 and the modular budget hasn't changed in two decades? 836 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,652 Where will the money come from if you 837 00:40:09,652 --> 00:40:11,860 do what I think is the right thing, which is to raise 838 00:40:11,860 --> 00:40:15,310 the minimum to 65 or 70? 839 00:40:15,310 --> 00:40:18,070 TOM KIMBIS: Thank you, Leslie. 840 00:40:18,070 --> 00:40:21,370 Talking about compensation and how that delta can be made up 841 00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:24,190 is something that the working group is discussing, including 842 00:40:24,190 --> 00:40:27,220 various mechanisms for doing so, but it certainly 843 00:40:27,220 --> 00:40:28,570 is a critical one. 844 00:40:28,570 --> 00:40:30,730 And thank you for bringing that to the attention 845 00:40:30,730 --> 00:40:32,440 of this whole group. 846 00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,072 I'll pass it back to Emily. 847 00:40:34,072 --> 00:40:35,530 EMILY MILLER: Yes, next we're going 848 00:40:35,530 --> 00:40:38,410 to hear a comment from Rachel Buckley. 849 00:40:38,410 --> 00:40:41,610 You can unmute yourself. 850 00:40:41,610 --> 00:40:42,350 AUDIENCE: Hello. 851 00:40:42,350 --> 00:40:47,030 Yes, I appreciate the chance to speak today. 852 00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:49,383 My comment-- I had a few different comments 853 00:40:49,383 --> 00:40:50,300 that I wanted to make. 854 00:40:50,300 --> 00:40:52,010 They were mainly on recommendations 855 00:40:52,010 --> 00:40:54,320 because that was something that was mentioned. 856 00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,940 I really do think that the NIH salary guidelines are far too 857 00:40:56,940 --> 00:40:57,440 low. 858 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,410 This has already been mentioned by a few different people. 859 00:41:00,410 --> 00:41:02,570 Based on the graph that was presented earlier 860 00:41:02,570 --> 00:41:05,630 on in the talk, it does seem like to be 861 00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:08,598 commensurate with industry and other non-academic jobs, 862 00:41:08,598 --> 00:41:10,640 it looks like the starting salary should actually 863 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:13,910 be higher, I think, than 65 or 75,000. 864 00:41:13,910 --> 00:41:16,550 But my thought had been to go so far 865 00:41:16,550 --> 00:41:20,900 as to think about adjusting based on the city-- 866 00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:21,950 the location. 867 00:41:21,950 --> 00:41:24,920 Certain cities have far higher cost of living-- 868 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:26,650 I'm thinking of places like San Francisco 869 00:41:26,650 --> 00:41:28,370 and New York, Boston-- 870 00:41:28,370 --> 00:41:31,370 where the salary may need to be adjusted higher. 871 00:41:31,370 --> 00:41:35,960 Also, the budget threshold of 500,000 and the modular budgets 872 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,530 need to be increased in order to help incentivize 873 00:41:39,530 --> 00:41:42,560 lifting the salaries of postdoctoral fellows 874 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,500 within the budget constraints at NIH. 875 00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:47,600 And just to mirror again some of the comments that 876 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,517 have been made already by many of the speakers 877 00:41:49,517 --> 00:41:51,680 and some of the people on this call, 878 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,140 postdocs are often starting their job 879 00:41:54,140 --> 00:41:56,360 at a time commensurate with starting a family, 880 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,640 maybe purchasing a house, and there 881 00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,130 needs to be a consideration of those costs. 882 00:42:01,130 --> 00:42:05,060 Childcare costs in particular are extremely high, certainly 883 00:42:05,060 --> 00:42:08,630 in similar cities that I've been mentioning before, 884 00:42:08,630 --> 00:42:11,570 and some amount of benefit associated with childcare 885 00:42:11,570 --> 00:42:12,540 would be critical. 886 00:42:12,540 --> 00:42:15,200 Particularly for women in STEM, and I can speak 887 00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,060 to my own experience of that. 888 00:42:17,060 --> 00:42:21,560 And I really appreciate everybody hearing my comment. 889 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,460 Thanks very much. 890 00:42:22,460 --> 00:42:24,920 891 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:25,920 EMILY MILLER: Thank you. 892 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,760 Tom, I was going to just read a comment that 893 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,580 came that was also in this space about regional issues 894 00:42:32,580 --> 00:42:33,690 and around salary. 895 00:42:33,690 --> 00:42:37,200 So a comment was put in, in New York City, most of our postdocs 896 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,330 are getting 60 to 65,000. 897 00:42:39,330 --> 00:42:42,960 Salary satisfaction is very low among all postdocs making 898 00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:44,370 under 75,000. 899 00:42:44,370 --> 00:42:47,820 The Boston recommendation of a 75,000 floor 900 00:42:47,820 --> 00:42:49,500 is much needed in New York City. 901 00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:51,960 If folks want to start a family with two to three kids, 902 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,280 child care costs 15,000 and housing costs 35,000. 903 00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,610 It's very much-- it's very much not 904 00:42:59,610 --> 00:43:01,200 affordable for most families and is 905 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:03,570 likely to discriminate against women and members 906 00:43:03,570 --> 00:43:04,770 of marginalized communities. 907 00:43:04,770 --> 00:43:07,290 Child care should be paid for by the NIH 908 00:43:07,290 --> 00:43:09,000 regardless of the grant. 909 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,460 I'll turn it back to you now, Tom. 910 00:43:11,460 --> 00:43:13,140 TOM KIMBIS: Thanks, Emily. 911 00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:16,740 And the next few are comments anonymously regarding 912 00:43:16,740 --> 00:43:18,570 inequality at different institutions 913 00:43:18,570 --> 00:43:20,920 and within those institutions. 914 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,390 How can we actually implement standards at a university level 915 00:43:24,390 --> 00:43:25,470 that are being discussed? 916 00:43:25,470 --> 00:43:30,900 At UNC Chapel Hill, the starting minimum for postdoc-- 917 00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:33,930 0-level postdoc is 47,000. 918 00:43:33,930 --> 00:43:36,150 Many postdocs enter at that salary 919 00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:39,030 and they never see a raise throughout their five years. 920 00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:41,130 I propose that universities be required 921 00:43:41,130 --> 00:43:43,620 to disclose what they're paying their postdocs 922 00:43:43,620 --> 00:43:47,640 and justify why they're paying below the NIH minimum. 923 00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,660 In Chapel Hill, you just cannot survive off of $47,000 a year. 924 00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:54,390 So thank you for that comment. 925 00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:56,487 Again, I think you're seeing this theme 926 00:43:56,487 --> 00:43:59,070 throughout discussion and that the working group is very aware 927 00:43:59,070 --> 00:44:02,970 of in terms of what levels are actually 928 00:44:02,970 --> 00:44:08,760 tenable for postdocs in 2023 and beyond, so thank you for that. 929 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:10,840 And Emily, flip it back over to you. 930 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:11,840 EMILY MILLER: Thank you. 931 00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,570 We have a comment by Kathleen for an idea of new grant 932 00:44:15,570 --> 00:44:16,120 funding. 933 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,790 So Kathleen Ehm? 934 00:44:19,790 --> 00:44:22,160 AUDIENCE: Hi, this is Kathleen Ehm from Stony Brook 935 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:25,670 University, and thank you for having this session today. 936 00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:27,500 I just wanted to comment specifically 937 00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:30,710 on some of the challenges with appointing our postdocs 938 00:44:30,710 --> 00:44:33,500 on fellowships. 939 00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:36,590 We've heard a lot about inequities 940 00:44:36,590 --> 00:44:40,610 between employee-appointed post-docs 941 00:44:40,610 --> 00:44:42,320 and those who are on fellowships, 942 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,810 and they have this prestigious opportunity 943 00:44:44,810 --> 00:44:47,000 and yet they're losing their benefits. 944 00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,680 Recently here at Stony Brook, we've 945 00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:54,750 been working on following the request from NASA for some 946 00:44:54,750 --> 00:44:57,150 of their fellowships on how they're now 947 00:44:57,150 --> 00:44:59,640 going to be requiring that we appoint 948 00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:03,600 our post their postdoc fellows in employee-like positions 949 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:06,570 and providing grants that have the appropriate fringe 950 00:45:06,570 --> 00:45:10,260 rate in order to pay for full employee benefits. 951 00:45:10,260 --> 00:45:12,910 And we finally figured out how to do it. 952 00:45:12,910 --> 00:45:15,960 And so I would encourage the NIH and other funders 953 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,770 to look at similar modes so that we don't have these haves 954 00:45:19,770 --> 00:45:22,170 and have-nots between fellows and employees 955 00:45:22,170 --> 00:45:25,920 and maybe can have a more level playing field between the way 956 00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:28,330 that we provide benefits. 957 00:45:28,330 --> 00:45:30,330 EMILY MILLER: Thank you for this recommendation. 958 00:45:30,330 --> 00:45:32,372 We'll be starting to bring it back to the working 959 00:45:32,372 --> 00:45:33,540 group for discussion. 960 00:45:33,540 --> 00:45:34,658 Tom? 961 00:45:34,658 --> 00:45:35,450 TOM KIMBIS: Thanks. 962 00:45:35,450 --> 00:45:38,000 And next we have a comment from Noel 963 00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,700 about expanding loan forgiveness. 964 00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:41,690 Noel, you can unmute. 965 00:45:41,690 --> 00:45:50,400 966 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,390 Noel if you're having issues, I can go ahead 967 00:45:52,390 --> 00:45:54,500 and read your question. 968 00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:58,380 And if you are able to unmute, please do so. 969 00:45:58,380 --> 00:46:01,380 So Noel had asked, would it be possible to expand access 970 00:46:01,380 --> 00:46:04,230 to student loan forgiveness to more postdocs? 971 00:46:04,230 --> 00:46:07,470 For many, this presents a significant financial burden 972 00:46:07,470 --> 00:46:10,650 that the current salary doesn't help much in covering. 973 00:46:10,650 --> 00:46:14,610 Many postdocs have also deferred payment on undergraduate loans 974 00:46:14,610 --> 00:46:17,910 through graduate school and have to begin repayment 975 00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:20,340 during the postdoc training phase. 976 00:46:20,340 --> 00:46:23,400 The current LRP program is quite restrictive, 977 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,430 and although I'm in the biomedical science field, 978 00:46:26,430 --> 00:46:28,690 I've been told, along with several of my colleagues, 979 00:46:28,690 --> 00:46:31,390 my research does not qualify. 980 00:46:31,390 --> 00:46:34,130 So thank you for that comment, Noel. 981 00:46:34,130 --> 00:46:35,880 It's something we'll certainly take a look 982 00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,340 at within the working group. 983 00:46:38,340 --> 00:46:40,020 Back to you, Emily. 984 00:46:40,020 --> 00:46:41,760 EMILY MILLER: Asha Lahiri has a comment 985 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:47,610 on requirement of institutions to pay in line with NRSA 986 00:46:47,610 --> 00:46:48,950 recommendations. 987 00:46:48,950 --> 00:46:49,912 Asha? 988 00:46:49,912 --> 00:46:51,240 I invite you to unmute. 989 00:46:51,240 --> 00:46:52,650 AUDIENCE: Yeah, thank you. 990 00:46:52,650 --> 00:46:55,300 Thank you very much for having these listening sessions. 991 00:46:55,300 --> 00:46:57,960 I completely agree with so many of the comments that 992 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:00,000 have been made, and a lot of my comment 993 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:05,010 was in line as well, which is, the NRSA level needs 994 00:47:05,010 --> 00:47:07,080 to be increased, but also, there needs 995 00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,340 to be more accountability for universities. 996 00:47:09,340 --> 00:47:12,060 I personally am a postdoc and I'm currently 997 00:47:12,060 --> 00:47:16,140 being paid significantly below the current NRSA stipend level 998 00:47:16,140 --> 00:47:17,790 for my years of experience, and I 999 00:47:17,790 --> 00:47:20,470 know that I'm not the only one. 1000 00:47:20,470 --> 00:47:23,130 And I do think the NIH is in a position-- 1001 00:47:23,130 --> 00:47:24,630 that should be a powerful position-- 1002 00:47:24,630 --> 00:47:27,810 to negotiate with universities and require these kinds 1003 00:47:27,810 --> 00:47:29,820 of things that stipends-- 1004 00:47:29,820 --> 00:47:33,750 sorry, that salaries remain in line with NRSA stipends. 1005 00:47:33,750 --> 00:47:38,340 And I also think that NIH needs to be thoughtful about where 1006 00:47:38,340 --> 00:47:39,330 the money comes from. 1007 00:47:39,330 --> 00:47:41,970 I don't think that PIs' grant money should 1008 00:47:41,970 --> 00:47:44,080 have to cover all of it. 1009 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:48,150 In my view universities, rely on a largely unpaid workforce 1010 00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:51,600 from their point of view, and they should have to contribute. 1011 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,530 Particularly large universities with a lot of money, 1012 00:47:55,530 --> 00:47:59,280 they should really have to contribute 1013 00:47:59,280 --> 00:48:01,260 to paying their workforce, their research 1014 00:48:01,260 --> 00:48:04,890 workforce in a fair way. 1015 00:48:04,890 --> 00:48:05,600 Yeah, sorry. 1016 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:13,620 1017 00:48:13,620 --> 00:48:17,590 EMILY MILLER: Thank you for your remarks and your reflections. 1018 00:48:17,590 --> 00:48:20,170 I think we have another anonymous comment, Tom, 1019 00:48:20,170 --> 00:48:21,932 that you're going to take on? 1020 00:48:21,932 --> 00:48:22,890 TOM KIMBIS: Absolutely. 1021 00:48:22,890 --> 00:48:27,450 So question-- or comment regarding minimum salary. 1022 00:48:27,450 --> 00:48:29,100 I would like to add that while we 1023 00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:32,670 tend to say that the NRSA minimum is adopted 1024 00:48:32,670 --> 00:48:36,300 by many universities as the minimum salary for postdocs, 1025 00:48:36,300 --> 00:48:40,290 we forget that there are still lots of universities, including 1026 00:48:40,290 --> 00:48:43,590 my own, even though those in a higher cost-of-living 1027 00:48:43,590 --> 00:48:47,190 area that don't even use that NRSA as the minimum, 1028 00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:51,720 but instead, use the FLSA exemption minimum salary that's 1029 00:48:51,720 --> 00:48:54,270 around $47,000. 1030 00:48:54,270 --> 00:48:55,677 So thank you for that comment. 1031 00:48:55,677 --> 00:48:57,510 Again, I think you're seeing this continuing 1032 00:48:57,510 --> 00:49:00,420 trend around minimum compensations 1033 00:49:00,420 --> 00:49:03,330 and trying to find the accurate level of compensation 1034 00:49:03,330 --> 00:49:06,770 for postdocs in today's competitive environment. 1035 00:49:06,770 --> 00:49:10,263 But thank you for that, and back to Emily. 1036 00:49:10,263 --> 00:49:11,430 EMILY MILLER: Yes, we have-- 1037 00:49:11,430 --> 00:49:17,740 I'm going to invite Ariangel Zolke? 1038 00:49:17,740 --> 00:49:19,870 Talking about financial stability. 1039 00:49:19,870 --> 00:49:23,060 1040 00:49:23,060 --> 00:49:24,530 AUDIENCE: Hi. 1041 00:49:24,530 --> 00:49:27,560 EMILY MILLER: Apologies for my pronunciation of your name. 1042 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:28,310 AUDIENCE: It's OK. 1043 00:49:28,310 --> 00:49:29,500 It's Ariangela Kozik. 1044 00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:30,500 EMILY MILLER: Thank you. 1045 00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:31,083 AUDIENCE: Yes. 1046 00:49:31,083 --> 00:49:36,950 I was just going to comment on how the combined 1047 00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:42,080 effect of the cost of living with the child care 1048 00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,730 demands with the benefits with the inconsistent 1049 00:49:46,730 --> 00:49:49,850 application of employee status, all those things really 1050 00:49:49,850 --> 00:49:54,410 come together to affect multiple areas of financial stability 1051 00:49:54,410 --> 00:49:59,960 where we can be shut out of being able to buy a home. 1052 00:49:59,960 --> 00:50:01,460 Rents are also going up. 1053 00:50:01,460 --> 00:50:04,220 And at the end of the day, what happens 1054 00:50:04,220 --> 00:50:06,410 is you are advantaging folks who have 1055 00:50:06,410 --> 00:50:08,610 an external source of financial support, 1056 00:50:08,610 --> 00:50:13,490 whether that be like family or a partner who is not 1057 00:50:13,490 --> 00:50:19,020 an academic who maybe has more stable salary, and it's really, 1058 00:50:19,020 --> 00:50:21,860 really is serving to push people out of the pipeline 1059 00:50:21,860 --> 00:50:25,250 because at a certain point, I mean, we have to make decisions 1060 00:50:25,250 --> 00:50:31,340 based on where we can survive, and that 1061 00:50:31,340 --> 00:50:34,160 is going to continue to have people 1062 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:39,140 choose alternative career paths because it's not tenable. 1063 00:50:39,140 --> 00:50:41,923 And that is sad, because as we've 1064 00:50:41,923 --> 00:50:43,340 learned over the past three years, 1065 00:50:43,340 --> 00:50:47,540 science is really important, and we want the best and brightest 1066 00:50:47,540 --> 00:50:49,470 doing this kind of work. 1067 00:50:49,470 --> 00:50:52,860 And so the way that we do that and the way 1068 00:50:52,860 --> 00:50:55,580 that we need to survive needs to be commensurate with the value 1069 00:50:55,580 --> 00:50:58,180 that we place on the work that's being done. 1070 00:50:58,180 --> 00:50:59,180 EMILY MILLER: Thank you. 1071 00:50:59,180 --> 00:51:00,638 This has really been a theme that's 1072 00:51:00,638 --> 00:51:02,540 been echoed through a number of conversations 1073 00:51:02,540 --> 00:51:06,020 with the working group, so thank you for sharing and reinforcing 1074 00:51:06,020 --> 00:51:07,190 that message to us. 1075 00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:08,798 Tom? 1076 00:51:08,798 --> 00:51:09,590 TOM KIMBIS: Thanks. 1077 00:51:09,590 --> 00:51:12,650 So we have a comment from Emily Rothwell. 1078 00:51:12,650 --> 00:51:14,090 Emily, would you like to unmute. 1079 00:51:14,090 --> 00:51:17,850 1080 00:51:17,850 --> 00:51:18,480 AUDIENCE: Yes. 1081 00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:19,510 Can you hear me? 1082 00:51:19,510 --> 00:51:20,610 TOM KIMBIS: Yes we can. 1083 00:51:20,610 --> 00:51:21,277 AUDIENCE: Great. 1084 00:51:21,277 --> 00:51:23,130 Thank you so much for calling on me. 1085 00:51:23,130 --> 00:51:25,013 Lots of what I'm going to say-- 1086 00:51:25,013 --> 00:51:27,180 I'll focus on the parts that haven't been mentioned. 1087 00:51:27,180 --> 00:51:29,820 I just want to give a bit of an example of what 1088 00:51:29,820 --> 00:51:32,170 someone might go through with these challenges. 1089 00:51:32,170 --> 00:51:38,790 So in the course of my three years as an F32 Fellow, 1090 00:51:38,790 --> 00:51:40,890 most of the issues that I ran into 1091 00:51:40,890 --> 00:51:44,520 were issues based on my institution 1092 00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:46,380 not knowing how to handle the fellowship 1093 00:51:46,380 --> 00:51:49,290 and not receiving guidance or mandates from the NIH 1094 00:51:49,290 --> 00:51:51,250 to treat me as an employee. 1095 00:51:51,250 --> 00:51:53,040 So I suddenly lost health insurance 1096 00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:54,750 and was forced to go on COBRA, and this 1097 00:51:54,750 --> 00:51:58,230 was in the middle of a personal health crisis as well. 1098 00:51:58,230 --> 00:52:01,260 It took a grievance hearing and process 1099 00:52:01,260 --> 00:52:03,090 that took months through my union 1100 00:52:03,090 --> 00:52:07,230 to be able to be considered employed 1101 00:52:07,230 --> 00:52:10,680 enough to get my insurance back through UMass. 1102 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:13,680 This was the University of Massachusetts. 1103 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:17,400 However, the university decided to pay us as vendors, 1104 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:19,860 which led to tax confusion. 1105 00:52:19,860 --> 00:52:22,410 And about a year and a half later, 1106 00:52:22,410 --> 00:52:24,540 led to issues with parental leave for me. 1107 00:52:24,540 --> 00:52:27,210 So I know the current F32 has eight paid 1108 00:52:27,210 --> 00:52:31,690 weeks of leave for either birth parent or non-birth parent. 1109 00:52:31,690 --> 00:52:34,110 However, the state of Massachusetts 1110 00:52:34,110 --> 00:52:38,140 offers 12 paid weeks of leave available. 1111 00:52:38,140 --> 00:52:41,220 However, I was deemed ineligible for state 1112 00:52:41,220 --> 00:52:44,550 paid leave because of the way that UMass 1113 00:52:44,550 --> 00:52:46,440 decided to distribute my fellowship 1114 00:52:46,440 --> 00:52:48,480 through from the NIH. 1115 00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:52,050 And so even though the NIH was willing to pause my fellowship 1116 00:52:52,050 --> 00:52:55,710 and allow me to accept 12 paid weeks from the state, 1117 00:52:55,710 --> 00:52:57,610 I wasn't able to use that. 1118 00:52:57,610 --> 00:52:59,580 So I'd like to commend the NIH for being 1119 00:52:59,580 --> 00:53:02,520 willing to adjust to these differences 1120 00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:05,430 in paid parental leave that's become available. 1121 00:53:05,430 --> 00:53:09,060 There are nine states now in the US that offer a 12 weeks' paid 1122 00:53:09,060 --> 00:53:10,650 leave, and so it's great that they 1123 00:53:10,650 --> 00:53:12,810 can offer to pause the fellowship, 1124 00:53:12,810 --> 00:53:15,330 allow you to take paid leave based on your state, 1125 00:53:15,330 --> 00:53:17,820 and then resume your fellowship without losing time 1126 00:53:17,820 --> 00:53:19,950 on your time clock. 1127 00:53:19,950 --> 00:53:24,210 I'd advocate that also the paid leave of eight weeks that's 1128 00:53:24,210 --> 00:53:27,720 offered under the current NRSA cycle 1129 00:53:27,720 --> 00:53:30,750 is not sufficient, especially if we have nine states that are 1130 00:53:30,750 --> 00:53:32,610 offering 12 weeks' paid leave. 1131 00:53:32,610 --> 00:53:36,910 So I'd like to just advocate for that to be longer as well. 1132 00:53:36,910 --> 00:53:40,770 For example, if you have an early birth 1133 00:53:40,770 --> 00:53:44,765 or if you have any issues with difficult pregnancy 1134 00:53:44,765 --> 00:53:46,390 and you need to start your leave early, 1135 00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:49,620 you may only get six weeks of leaves after the birth. 1136 00:53:49,620 --> 00:53:53,040 So I'd just like to say that in the process of trying 1137 00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,310 to access these needs that I had as postdoc, 1138 00:53:56,310 --> 00:53:58,740 I did a lot of research, I'm happy to share more details 1139 00:53:58,740 --> 00:54:00,360 if anyone wants to reach out. 1140 00:54:00,360 --> 00:54:03,870 But thank you very much for hearing and listening to this-- 1141 00:54:03,870 --> 00:54:06,630 issues that I've had. 1142 00:54:06,630 --> 00:54:10,950 TOM KIMBIS: Thank you very much for sharing them as well. 1143 00:54:10,950 --> 00:54:15,060 Very important, and I'll back over to Emily. 1144 00:54:15,060 --> 00:54:17,070 EMILY MILLER: Melissa Oaklam has a comment 1145 00:54:17,070 --> 00:54:20,430 on a really-- the importance of postdocs. 1146 00:54:20,430 --> 00:54:25,890 And so we welcome you to unmute and give us your thoughts. 1147 00:54:25,890 --> 00:54:37,310 1148 00:54:37,310 --> 00:54:39,290 I'm going to just read your comment. 1149 00:54:39,290 --> 00:54:44,930 If you can come on with audio, we welcome you to join us. 1150 00:54:44,930 --> 00:54:47,750 I agree and echo what the participants say. 1151 00:54:47,750 --> 00:54:49,940 It is about respecting the postdocs. 1152 00:54:49,940 --> 00:54:53,540 We as postdocs are often told by the professors we don't matter. 1153 00:54:53,540 --> 00:54:55,430 It is the faculty who is important 1154 00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:57,830 and we are temporarily disposable, almost. 1155 00:54:57,830 --> 00:55:03,060 Why would anyone stay in a disrespectful environment? 1156 00:55:03,060 --> 00:55:06,320 Thank you for sharing that personal reflection. 1157 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,123 It will be one that we bring back along 1158 00:55:08,123 --> 00:55:10,040 with the other many comments that have come in 1159 00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,995 and the ones we've heard today to the working group. 1160 00:55:13,995 --> 00:55:15,120 TOM KIMBIS: Yes, thank you. 1161 00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,050 So we have a question or comment regarding 1162 00:55:18,050 --> 00:55:20,900 scaling postdoc salaries to the GS scale, which 1163 00:55:20,900 --> 00:55:24,950 is something we heard in previous sessions a little bit 1164 00:55:24,950 --> 00:55:27,660 and have discussed in some of the working groups. 1165 00:55:27,660 --> 00:55:31,490 So I'll invite Kelsey Tyssowski to unmute. 1166 00:55:31,490 --> 00:55:33,962 1167 00:55:33,962 --> 00:55:34,920 AUDIENCE: Yeah, thanks. 1168 00:55:34,920 --> 00:55:35,912 Can you hear me? 1169 00:55:35,912 --> 00:55:36,870 TOM KIMBIS: Yes we can. 1170 00:55:36,870 --> 00:55:38,010 AUDIENCE: OK, great. 1171 00:55:38,010 --> 00:55:38,670 Thanks. 1172 00:55:38,670 --> 00:55:43,030 Yeah, again, just echoing what everyone else has said, 1173 00:55:43,030 --> 00:55:45,450 it's a part of the reason that the salary scale 1174 00:55:45,450 --> 00:55:49,170 is so hard is because it's not scaled for cost of living, 1175 00:55:49,170 --> 00:55:51,030 but I just wanted to bring up this idea 1176 00:55:51,030 --> 00:55:54,960 that the government already has a scale to pay postdoc-- 1177 00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,900 to pay government employees, I mean, that 1178 00:55:57,900 --> 00:55:59,500 is scaled for cost of living. 1179 00:55:59,500 --> 00:56:02,220 And I think that this might be appropriate for the NIH 1180 00:56:02,220 --> 00:56:08,310 to use because the NIH, like anybody paid by the government, 1181 00:56:08,310 --> 00:56:11,790 is using taxpayer money to pay their employees, 1182 00:56:11,790 --> 00:56:15,640 and postdocs are employees of universities in most cases. 1183 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,210 And so I just think that using this government scale that's 1184 00:56:18,210 --> 00:56:21,100 already scaled for taxpayer money, 1185 00:56:21,100 --> 00:56:23,820 it's not driven by capitalism like industry 1186 00:56:23,820 --> 00:56:25,870 or whatever in the same way. 1187 00:56:25,870 --> 00:56:28,740 So it seems like an appropriate scale that the NIH could use. 1188 00:56:28,740 --> 00:56:31,020 And in high cost-of-living areas, 1189 00:56:31,020 --> 00:56:34,860 the scale at which a postdoc would be hired-- 1190 00:56:34,860 --> 00:56:38,010 or sorry, the scale at which a new PhD would be hired, 1191 00:56:38,010 --> 00:56:40,380 it would be much higher than the current NIH scale. 1192 00:56:40,380 --> 00:56:43,740 And I know that we heard before a little bit about the idea 1193 00:56:43,740 --> 00:56:46,020 that that might be due to the fact 1194 00:56:46,020 --> 00:56:47,820 that postdocs are supposed to be trainees. 1195 00:56:47,820 --> 00:56:49,470 But in my experience, postdocs actually 1196 00:56:49,470 --> 00:56:52,110 don't receive any more or less training 1197 00:56:52,110 --> 00:56:53,590 than somebody starting a new job. 1198 00:56:53,590 --> 00:56:56,340 Everybody receives training when they start a new job, 1199 00:56:56,340 --> 00:56:59,250 and the postdoc in reality is the first step 1200 00:56:59,250 --> 00:57:01,050 to an academic career, and if we wish 1201 00:57:01,050 --> 00:57:05,460 to have a diverse academic community 1202 00:57:05,460 --> 00:57:08,100 and diverse academic leaders, we need 1203 00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:10,380 to make that career path accessible to everybody 1204 00:57:10,380 --> 00:57:13,470 and it shouldn't be just lower because we're 1205 00:57:13,470 --> 00:57:15,000 receiving training. 1206 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,255 And so yeah, thank you. 1207 00:57:17,255 --> 00:57:18,380 TOM KIMBIS: Thanks, Kelsey. 1208 00:57:18,380 --> 00:57:21,170 And certainly an idea that we've heard 1209 00:57:21,170 --> 00:57:24,350 raised by a number of folks and something 1210 00:57:24,350 --> 00:57:28,280 that is being discussed in our group and in other institutions 1211 00:57:28,280 --> 00:57:30,800 as well, so thank you for that. 1212 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:34,810 Back to Emily for comments from NIH. 1213 00:57:34,810 --> 00:57:35,650 EMILY MILLER: Yes. 1214 00:57:35,650 --> 00:57:38,200 I invite Gary McDowell to unmute. 1215 00:57:38,200 --> 00:57:42,640 He-- there's a statement about policies coming from NIH, 1216 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,655 and this would be-- 1217 00:57:44,655 --> 00:57:46,780 we're coming to our close of time, our last comment 1218 00:57:46,780 --> 00:57:48,700 that we'll be hearing from today. 1219 00:57:48,700 --> 00:57:49,780 Gary? 1220 00:57:49,780 --> 00:57:50,350 AUDIENCE: Hi. 1221 00:57:50,350 --> 00:57:51,470 I hope you can hear me. 1222 00:57:51,470 --> 00:57:54,280 Thank you so much, and thanks for all the comments 1223 00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:56,020 and everything. 1224 00:57:56,020 --> 00:57:58,810 Really, there's just an overarching message 1225 00:57:58,810 --> 00:58:01,990 I'd like to send to the working group, which is, I have now, 1226 00:58:01,990 --> 00:58:04,900 approaching a decade myself of having worked in these issues 1227 00:58:04,900 --> 00:58:08,170 and have participated on various working groups 1228 00:58:08,170 --> 00:58:10,540 and committees at the National Academies, 1229 00:58:10,540 --> 00:58:12,520 a lot of these problems are not new, 1230 00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,600 but have been discussed almost ad nauseum in the past. 1231 00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:18,220 And I just want to highlight, there 1232 00:58:18,220 --> 00:58:22,240 was a lot of discussion in 2015 about this issue with benefits, 1233 00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,693 and NIH signaled that they were looking into it 1234 00:58:25,693 --> 00:58:27,110 and they were going to address it, 1235 00:58:27,110 --> 00:58:29,600 but as far as I can tell there hasn't been any follow-up. 1236 00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:31,450 And so just generally for the working group, 1237 00:58:31,450 --> 00:58:35,530 I think there's been a lot of activity and discussion before, 1238 00:58:35,530 --> 00:58:38,290 but it would be really great to see some actual concrete things 1239 00:58:38,290 --> 00:58:42,760 coming out that really address conversations 1240 00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,760 that have now been happening for a very long time. 1241 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:46,760 Yeah, thank you so much. 1242 00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:48,635 EMILY MILLER: No, thank you for that comment, 1243 00:58:48,635 --> 00:58:50,230 and I do honestly believe the working 1244 00:58:50,230 --> 00:58:53,950 group wants to have actionable recommendations 1245 00:58:53,950 --> 00:58:56,110 that come forward. 1246 00:58:56,110 --> 00:59:00,700 I've been advised that we could take maybe one more comment. 1247 00:59:00,700 --> 00:59:15,930 So Claire-- I don't know if Claire's 1248 00:59:15,930 --> 00:59:20,430 been able to be prompted to come off mute. 1249 00:59:20,430 --> 00:59:23,070 Oh, she's no longer with us on the call. 1250 00:59:23,070 --> 00:59:26,670 I can share and read out her comment, 1251 00:59:26,670 --> 00:59:29,130 and it's one that is a comparison 1252 00:59:29,130 --> 00:59:30,840 to medical residency training, and this 1253 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,440 was a theme that was earlier stated in our discussion. 1254 00:59:35,440 --> 00:59:40,230 But as a postdoc partner to a surgical medical resident 1255 00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:44,130 and mother to a young child in a large city, 1256 00:59:44,130 --> 00:59:47,060 I disagree with modeling postdoctoral training 1257 00:59:47,060 --> 00:59:48,060 on the medical training. 1258 00:59:48,060 --> 00:59:50,550 Medical residency training is rife with issues 1259 00:59:50,550 --> 00:59:52,380 of abuse and underpay. 1260 00:59:52,380 --> 00:59:54,780 I'm strongly appreciative of the pay 1261 00:59:54,780 --> 00:59:57,450 raises for postdocs going on around the country 1262 00:59:57,450 --> 00:59:59,490 and the improvements to parental leave policies. 1263 00:59:59,490 --> 01:00:02,000 1264 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:03,410 Please make more. 1265 01:00:03,410 --> 01:00:05,840 Current salaries associated with postdoctoral training 1266 01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:07,940 and medical residency force many trainees 1267 01:00:07,940 --> 01:00:11,540 to delay major adult decisions into their late 30s. 1268 01:00:11,540 --> 01:00:13,310 This, in turn, decreases diversity 1269 01:00:13,310 --> 01:00:15,800 in academia and in medicine. 1270 01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:22,480 1271 01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,195 I think we're turning it back over to Tara and Shelley? 1272 01:00:26,195 --> 01:00:27,320 TARA SCHWETZ: That's right. 1273 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:28,970 Thank you so much, Emily and Tom. 1274 01:00:28,970 --> 01:00:32,390 And thank you all again for your interest in these topics. 1275 01:00:32,390 --> 01:00:34,790 We're really grateful for all of the input 1276 01:00:34,790 --> 01:00:37,650 and perspectives and ideas that were shared today, 1277 01:00:37,650 --> 01:00:39,380 and there were some really great ones. 1278 01:00:39,380 --> 01:00:44,628 We got about 150, almost, that came through. 1279 01:00:44,628 --> 01:00:46,670 And of course, unfortunately, we didn't have time 1280 01:00:46,670 --> 01:00:51,110 to get to all of those, but we have collected them all, 1281 01:00:51,110 --> 01:00:53,960 and the input will be shared with the working 1282 01:00:53,960 --> 01:00:55,868 group for consideration. 1283 01:00:55,868 --> 01:00:58,160 I want to let you guys know that a recording of today's 1284 01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,130 listening session and accessible materials 1285 01:01:01,130 --> 01:01:03,680 are going to be posted to the working group website 1286 01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:07,160 next week, and materials from last week's sessions 1287 01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,300 are now available online. 1288 01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:13,330 There are multiple ways to continue to engage with us. 1289 01:01:13,330 --> 01:01:15,150 We have a request for information 1290 01:01:15,150 --> 01:01:17,490 that is open through April 14, and we 1291 01:01:17,490 --> 01:01:21,730 invite you to comment on these issues there as well. 1292 01:01:21,730 --> 01:01:25,920 And our final listening session of this set 1293 01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:31,170 is going to be on Monday, March 20 at 1:30 PM Eastern Time. 1294 01:01:31,170 --> 01:01:34,140 And its focus will be on job security satisfaction 1295 01:01:34,140 --> 01:01:36,030 and quality of life, so I encourage you all 1296 01:01:36,030 --> 01:01:39,010 to please attend that as well. 1297 01:01:39,010 --> 01:01:42,390 We look forward to continuing to engage with all of you 1298 01:01:42,390 --> 01:01:45,850 as we develop and consider recommendations. 1299 01:01:45,850 --> 01:01:50,005 So with that, Shelley, why don't you have the final word? 1300 01:01:50,005 --> 01:01:50,880 SHELLEY BERGER: Yeah. 1301 01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:54,360 I think we're very appreciative of all the comments. 1302 01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:59,880 Really nice range of comments, really touching 1303 01:01:59,880 --> 01:02:02,850 on a lot of the issues with respect 1304 01:02:02,850 --> 01:02:06,400 to compensation and benefits, so we really appreciate that. 1305 01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,420 And I think the session on Monday 1306 01:02:09,420 --> 01:02:11,260 is going to continue a lot of these themes, 1307 01:02:11,260 --> 01:02:15,590 so please come back and talk to us some more. 1308 01:02:15,590 --> 01:02:17,000