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TARA SCHWETZ: Thank you,
everyone, for joining us today.

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I am Tara Schwetz.

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I'm the acting Principal
Deputy Director of the National

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Institutes of Health.

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I'm also the co-chair of
the NIH advisory committee

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to the director working
group on re-envisioning

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the NIH supported postdoc.

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I'm pleased to welcome you today
to our session that we have.

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And joining me, we have
Dr. Shelley Berger,

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who's a professor at the
University of Pennsylvania,

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who's also a co-chair of the
working group along with me.

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And we have two
additional members

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of the working group here--

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Dr. Judith Kimble,
professor at the University

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of Wisconsin-Madison; and
Ms. Adriana Morales Gomez,

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a graduate student
at Mayo Clinic.

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Now, before we jump
in, I just want

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to provide a little bit of
housekeeping remarks, as well

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as a little bit of an
introduction into today's topic

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before turning it over
to my colleague, Shelley.

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So I just want to
start by saying

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that ensuring the future
of US competitiveness

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in innovation and
biomedical research

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is really of the utmost
importance to NIH.

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Likewise, and in order to
do that, we must promote

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the well-being
and sustainability

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of the biomedical workforce.

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Our working group
was established

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to specifically address
growing concerns

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about the postdoctoral
training system

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and academic research
investigators'

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ability to recruit qualified
postdoctoral candidates

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in the future.

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And the goal of
this working group

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is going to be to
explore the status

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of the postdoctoral
training system,

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to identify and understand
the critical factors

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and issues related
to this perceived

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decline in the number
of postdoctoral fellows

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in academia.

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And actually, we've seen data
that really support that.

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And also to provide
recommendations

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to address those factors.

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And we've been having
meetings regularly

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to discuss these issues
and others on this topic.

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And we really want
to hear from you

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all, the biomedical research
community, about these issues.

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Because your feedback and input
are critical to this endeavor.

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So to set the
stage today, you're

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going to be hearing from
a few invited speakers.

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We will then open it up
to structured discussion

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and questions from all attendees
for the remainder of the hour,

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before we close.

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Now, just emphasize
that we really

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want to focus on comments
from all of you all.

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So we'll try to limit
the amount of Q&A,

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because we really want to make
sure that we are listening

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to what you all have to say.

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Now, we'll collect that
input, using the QA function

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on the Zoom, which
should be open now.

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So please provide
your comment or a note

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on the topic of your comment,
and then what we're going to do

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is we'll invite the
participants to unmute and share

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their comment out loud.

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We ask that each participant
limit their comments

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to about one to two minutes,
so we can hear from as many

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of you as possible.

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And if you prefer to comment
anonymously, we understand.

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But please note that
in your comment,

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we ask you to flag
that you would

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like to comment anonymously.

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And one of the facilitators will
then read your note out loud,

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and there'll be no attribution.

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So please feel free
again to start submitting

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your input in the Q&A box now.

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So now I want to turn
it over to Shelley

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to frame today's topic, which
is on the role, duration

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structure, and value of
the academic postdoc,

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and importantly this
includes the impacts

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on underrepresented populations.

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So Shelley?

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SHELLEY BERGER: Yes.

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Great.

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Thank you, Tara.

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I'm really happy to be
here and to greet everyone.

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We've got nearly
400 people online.

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So that's fantastic.

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Here we present one view
of the role of postdocs

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in academic science,
the postdocs

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do work with principal
investigators in their labs.

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And the sharing of running
a lab and working together

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varies from lab to lab.

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But one view is that
postdocs work as, this

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is a metaphor, as worker bees.

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And historically,
postdocs will go on

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to become principal
investigators themselves,

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as in this view
from Paula Stephan,

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making this metaphor about
the role of postdocs.

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We certainly view this
as one of the key topics

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of what we want to
talk about today,

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the experience of
postdocs in labs,

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and how that's been
evolving, how it's shaping,

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how postdocs view
themselves within labs.

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So, going on to the next slide.

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So here, using recent data from
the National Science Foundation

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from 2021, we're
showing here the number

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of US postdocs represented
by the solid blue line,

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and the number of
non-faculty researchers

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with doctorates in
the dotted teal line.

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So the non-faculty researchers
are doctorate holding staff

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who are neither postdocs
nor are they faculty.

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But they spend their time
primarily involved in research.

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So the key thing here is
that the number of postdocs

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have steadily increased
over time since 1980.

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And really, you can see as was
pretty flat in the middle part

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of this graph.

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And then has really leveled off.

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And in fact, has even begun
to decline after 2020.

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So in the next slide,
as one indication

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of what's been going
on, we're showing here

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the number of applications,
awards, and success rates

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for National Institute of
Health, NRSA F32 fellowships,

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which is NIH's individual
postdoc fellowship mechanism.

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And I think it's quite apparent
that applications and awards

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have been decreasing
in recent years,

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despite a very
constant success rate.

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So that's quite interesting.

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So together, these
data support, really I

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think illustrate the
idea that there's

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been a decline of postdocs, and
really illustrates the urgency

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to address these issues.

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OK, so in this next slide, we're
depicting the many forces that

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are really driving the decline.

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And here we include the limited
opportunities in academia,

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so postdocs going
back to this idea

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that postdocs will
eventually become PIs,

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the opportunities have
become more limited.

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And on contrast, there have
become new opportunities

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in pharma, in biotech.

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In addition, we've seen
a lengthening time.

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I think most of us have
seen this lengthening time

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to publish, and the
expectations for research

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really have been expanding.

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And finally, I think starting
with coronavirus virus

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really driving this and
making it quite obvious,

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we've seen an
increasing expectation

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for work-life balance
and the cost of living

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continuing to increase.

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So on the topic of the
duration of postdocs,

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data from the National
postdoc association

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indicates that 89%
of institutions

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have a term limit on postdocs.

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And the limit for most of these
institutions is five years.

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It's critical for
this working group

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to carefully consider the
experiences of the community

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surrounding the role,
duration structure, and value

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of postdocs, and
how that impacts

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underrepresented populations.

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And we're extremely
pleased to have

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all of you here to share your
input on these matters today.

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And with that, I'm
going to hand back

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to Tara to introduce
our speakers before we

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move on to your comments.

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TARA SCHWETZ: Great.

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Thanks so much, Shelley.

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So I am delighted that we
have with us here today

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three folks who were invited
to share their perspectives.

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We'll start with Dr. Esra
Yalcin, who is a fifth year

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postdoc from Harvard Medical
School, Boston Children's

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Hospital.

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She's the current president
of the Boston Postdoctoral

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Association and leading
author of "Retaining Postdocs

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by Recognizing
their Worth," which

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was published in Nature
Biotechnology in February

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of 2022.

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So with that, Esra, I'll
turn it over to you.

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ESRA YALCIN: Thank you,
Tara, for the introduction.

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And thank you for the working
group for inviting me today

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to speak.

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I'll briefly mention about three
challenges as postdocs we face,

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and most of these
challenges are affecting

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the underrepresented minorities
in our postdoc community.

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And I'm going to share
my perspective based

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on my interaction
past four years

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with the postdoc
communities in Boston area,

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as well as my own being postdoc
in Harvard Medical School,

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Boston Children's Hospital.

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So my first identified
challenge is

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as a postdoc, that
is I believe driving

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the decline in the
participation in academia,

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is not getting paid well enough.

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The second one is
being a postdoc parent,

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in especially high-cost
living areas like Boston.

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And third one is lack of
bullying and harassment

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policies, as well as
clarities on them.

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And we're not getting
paid, I'll briefly

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say how it impacts
underrepresented population

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in postdocs, and what are
my three solutions, so

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one solution to each problem.

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When we're not getting paid
well enough in Massachusetts,

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I mean we know that there is
a set NIH pay scale, that's

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that starts with $53,000.

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The low income level
in Massachusetts

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is $60,000, which means that
for us, for folks holding PhD

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degrees, to be able to not
eligible for a social housing

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in Massachusetts, we have
to work a couple more

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years into our postdocs.

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And that ultimately
affects people

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of color, people of
low income families,

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because we no longer afford
to live in a high-cost living

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area that is also a
hub center for science.

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And it makes us feel like
we're not valued enough,

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our effort is not valued enough.

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And the solution to
that is regional cost

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of living adjustment
that has been proposed

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by several
publications, including

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me and my team's last
publication in Nature

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Biotechnology.

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The second challenge is
being a postdoc parent.

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It mostly affects
the female parents,

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because the data shows
the gender gap appears

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after the birth of our
child, because mothers

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are preparing to take care to
cover the 40% of child care

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costs in Boston, because it's
no longer available, as working

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two academic
postdocs in academia.

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And then eventually, it impacts
basically the females mostly,

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and then it causes
them to leave academia.

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And my solution to that is to
increase the parental leave.

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In some institutions, we know
that there are 8 to 12 weeks

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parental leave they provide.

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But I offer, based
on my data collection

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from our communities.

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16 weeks of paternity or
maternity leave individually.

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And then Cornell University had
a practice they were offering.

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In their program, they
were offering $50,000

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to the newly parents, to
hire a lab tech assistant.

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I know this applies only at lab.

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But basically,
that lab technician

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would help continue
the research,

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while the parent is taking
care of the newly born baby.

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But I think that
can set an example,

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and then I hope that
would open other venues

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for potential solution to
this postdoc parent problem.

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And then third one is lack
of bullying and harassment,

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as I mentioned.

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Again, people of color,
people of different sexual

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orientation, people
of religion, people

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of different gender, and mostly
women, are affected by that.

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We have enough data to
show that I believe.

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As a solution, when I go
to a facility every day,

251
00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:20,440
I see NIH returning,
and that person

252
00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,200
is an independent
inspector and reporter.

253
00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,960
And whenever there is a small
violation is being detected

254
00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:29,170
immediately, and then
any ethical violation,

255
00:13:29,170 --> 00:13:32,170
and it's been reported to NIH,
and I know how seriously we

256
00:13:32,170 --> 00:13:37,390
are taking this
practice, my solution

257
00:13:37,390 --> 00:13:40,330
is that I think we have
efficient reporting

258
00:13:40,330 --> 00:13:42,170
and inspection systems in place.

259
00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:45,730
But I am afraid those
systems are not applying

260
00:13:45,730 --> 00:13:47,500
to postdocs human beings yet.

261
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:51,610
And I hope NIH can
create environments

262
00:13:51,610 --> 00:13:55,570
that we can more freely and
openly report these cases,

263
00:13:55,570 --> 00:13:58,330
and advocate for ourselves.

264
00:13:58,330 --> 00:14:00,320
Again, thank you for
providing me this space,

265
00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:01,780
to speak for our postdocs today.

266
00:14:06,340 --> 00:14:08,760
TARA SCHWETZ: Thank you
so much for those comments

267
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:10,530
and that feedback.

268
00:14:10,530 --> 00:14:13,770
Next, I'm going to turn it
over to Dr. Bruce Mandt, who

269
00:14:13,770 --> 00:14:15,930
serves as the Associate
Dean for Career

270
00:14:15,930 --> 00:14:18,600
and Professional development
in the graduate school

271
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,000
and director of the
post-doctoral office

272
00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,740
at the University of Colorado,
Anschutz Medical Campus.

273
00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:28,470
Bruce is currently
chair of the Association

274
00:14:28,470 --> 00:14:31,990
of American Medical Colleges'
group on research, education,

275
00:14:31,990 --> 00:14:33,340
and training.

276
00:14:33,340 --> 00:14:36,030
This is their postdoctoral
training section.

277
00:14:36,030 --> 00:14:38,932
With that, I'll turn
it over to Bruce.

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00:14:38,932 --> 00:14:39,890
BRUCE MANDT: Thank you.

279
00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:42,770
Thank you for the opportunity
to engage in this conversation,

280
00:14:42,770 --> 00:14:44,870
and for the NIH's efforts
to address challenges

281
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:47,470
within our postdoctoral
communities.

282
00:14:47,470 --> 00:14:50,150
I've chosen to focus on
three primary challenges.

283
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:52,050
One, finances.

284
00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:54,050
This likely will be a
main point of conversation

285
00:14:54,050 --> 00:14:56,630
and also the most
difficult item to address.

286
00:14:56,630 --> 00:14:59,240
Regardless, the financial
burden posed to many postdocs

287
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,060
has made continuing in
this position prohibitive.

288
00:15:02,060 --> 00:15:04,040
Two, mentorship.

289
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:05,630
Unlike graduate
programs, there's

290
00:15:05,630 --> 00:15:08,060
little oversight for
postdoctoral mentoring outside

291
00:15:08,060 --> 00:15:09,800
of T32 programs.

292
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:11,570
Far too frequently,
postdocs are still

293
00:15:11,570 --> 00:15:14,840
seen as a cost effective means
to complete research projects,

294
00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,500
and not as an investment in the
future of biomedical research.

295
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:20,163
And three, uncertainty.

296
00:15:20,163 --> 00:15:22,580
I believe one final challenge
is the uncertainty about how

297
00:15:22,580 --> 00:15:24,350
postdoc training is
moving someone forward

298
00:15:24,350 --> 00:15:25,520
in their careers.

299
00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:27,950
But I would set expectations
around length of training,

300
00:15:27,950 --> 00:15:30,710
a training will occur,
and clear career outcomes.

301
00:15:30,710 --> 00:15:33,020
Postdocs are asked to
enter into a nebulous void

302
00:15:33,020 --> 00:15:35,330
of an uncertain future
that in practice may

303
00:15:35,330 --> 00:15:37,220
last upwards of 10 years.

304
00:15:37,220 --> 00:15:39,350
Consequently, the
value of the postdoc

305
00:15:39,350 --> 00:15:43,100
is unclear, and can appear
largely undesirable.

306
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:45,740
Some points for consideration,
the current state

307
00:15:45,740 --> 00:15:47,300
of postdoc training
selects not only

308
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:49,820
based on interest
and ability, but also

309
00:15:49,820 --> 00:15:51,500
based on who has
independent means

310
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:53,570
to continue in these positions.

311
00:15:53,570 --> 00:15:55,130
The selection
criteria frequently

312
00:15:55,130 --> 00:15:56,750
advantages those
who already benefit

313
00:15:56,750 --> 00:15:58,250
from different
forms of privilege,

314
00:15:58,250 --> 00:16:00,110
and undermines our
ability to build greater

315
00:16:00,110 --> 00:16:02,780
representation in science.

316
00:16:02,780 --> 00:16:04,190
By setting different
expectations

317
00:16:04,190 --> 00:16:07,970
for postdoc training based
on NRSA or non-NRSA support,

318
00:16:07,970 --> 00:16:10,760
the NIH currently establishes
different classes of postdocs,

319
00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,090
and cements
institutional inequities.

320
00:16:14,090 --> 00:16:16,100
The vast majority of
biomedical institutions

321
00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:18,920
use the NRSA rates to
set their pay policies.

322
00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,190
Because of this, NRSA
rates have tremendous power

323
00:16:22,190 --> 00:16:25,640
to affect the overall pay
that both sides receive.

324
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,070
Given that the NIH supports
the overwhelming majority

325
00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:31,850
of postdocs on non-NSRA
grants, augmenting expectations

326
00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:34,040
for postdoc training
on research grants

327
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,500
will have the greatest
impact on postdoc training.

328
00:16:37,500 --> 00:16:39,410
Finally, our
international postdocs

329
00:16:39,410 --> 00:16:42,868
are primarily supported on
research grants, and as such,

330
00:16:42,868 --> 00:16:44,660
do not benefit from
the structured training

331
00:16:44,660 --> 00:16:48,230
and focus on career
development that NRSAs provide.

332
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:51,170
I also want to offer
these potential solutions.

333
00:16:51,170 --> 00:16:53,690
For finances, set
regionally adjusted cost

334
00:16:53,690 --> 00:16:55,280
of living NSRA rates.

335
00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,190
And clarify NRSA language
to allow institutions

336
00:16:58,190 --> 00:17:01,070
to provide equitable
benefits to all postdocs,

337
00:17:01,070 --> 00:17:03,400
regardless of funding source.

338
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,790
Two, set consistent postdoc
training expectations,

339
00:17:06,790 --> 00:17:08,650
regardless of funding source.

340
00:17:08,650 --> 00:17:10,900
Before approving a postdoc's
appointment to a research

341
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,940
grant, require
the postdoc and PI

342
00:17:12,940 --> 00:17:15,460
to submit some form of a
career and training plan,

343
00:17:15,460 --> 00:17:17,710
potentially even uploading
it to ERA commons

344
00:17:17,710 --> 00:17:20,020
and require annual updates.

345
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:23,319
Require evidence of commitment
to mentoring from all faculty

346
00:17:23,319 --> 00:17:25,400
who want to support a postdoc.

347
00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,580
Set consistent salary stipend
amounts for all postdocs

348
00:17:28,580 --> 00:17:31,400
and require following
experience levels.

349
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,890
And place absolute limits
on total time allowable

350
00:17:33,890 --> 00:17:36,940
for support in
postdoctoral positions.

351
00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:40,030
Three, use successful
models like the RACDA

352
00:17:40,030 --> 00:17:42,250
to focus on additional
career options.

353
00:17:42,250 --> 00:17:44,950
For example, pathways to
industry, which could help

354
00:17:44,950 --> 00:17:46,540
build public-private
partnerships.

355
00:17:46,540 --> 00:17:49,090
And allow postdocs to gain
industry experience while still

356
00:17:49,090 --> 00:17:51,490
focusing on academic research.

357
00:17:51,490 --> 00:17:54,940
And four, finally, create
more early career awards

358
00:17:54,940 --> 00:17:56,860
for non-tenured
track faculty roles,

359
00:17:56,860 --> 00:17:58,720
so individuals can
amass accomplishments

360
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,260
in independent positions, rather
than remaining as postdocs

361
00:18:02,260 --> 00:18:04,460
longer than necessary.

362
00:18:04,460 --> 00:18:05,710
Thank you for the opportunity.

363
00:18:09,875 --> 00:18:12,000
TARA SCHWETZ: Thank you,
Bruce, for those comments.

364
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:17,160
And our last commenter today
is Dr. Antentor Hinton,

365
00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,920
who's an assistant professor
of molecular physiology

366
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,770
and biophysics at
Vanderbilt University.

367
00:18:22,770 --> 00:18:26,640
He has also published papers
on revitalizing and reimagining

368
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:29,340
the STEM pipeline,
mentoring minority trainees,

369
00:18:29,340 --> 00:18:31,140
and applying for faculty jobs.

370
00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:33,855
I'll turn it over to you.

371
00:18:33,855 --> 00:18:35,980
ANTENTOR HINTON: Thank you
very much for having me.

372
00:18:35,980 --> 00:18:38,020
The first thing I want
to say is thank you

373
00:18:38,020 --> 00:18:40,730
for allowing me to have
this space to speak.

374
00:18:40,730 --> 00:18:42,260
So I just want to
get right into it.

375
00:18:42,260 --> 00:18:43,760
So the very first
thing that I think

376
00:18:43,760 --> 00:18:47,260
that is critical for
postdocs to see is mentoring.

377
00:18:47,260 --> 00:18:50,830
There are not a lot of
engagement around the practice

378
00:18:50,830 --> 00:18:52,300
of mentoring.

379
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:56,090
We have now started to, as a
scientific culture if you will,

380
00:18:56,090 --> 00:18:58,660
to acquire the IDP plan.

381
00:18:58,660 --> 00:19:01,150
But we should need to
go a little bit further.

382
00:19:01,150 --> 00:19:02,560
I agree with what
Bruce is saying

383
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:04,120
in the context of
actually uploading

384
00:19:04,120 --> 00:19:06,760
the IDP plan as part of the
progress report at least

385
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:07,960
per year.

386
00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,220
But the actual case of
how an IDP plan works

387
00:19:12,220 --> 00:19:14,330
is usually it's updated
every three to six months.

388
00:19:14,330 --> 00:19:16,840
So really there should
be a twice a year

389
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,320
requirement for mentors and the
trainee to be able to say, OK,

390
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:21,820
this is the progress
that we've done

391
00:19:21,820 --> 00:19:24,140
in the mentoring and the
career development space.

392
00:19:24,140 --> 00:19:26,380
And then here's the
research progress.

393
00:19:26,380 --> 00:19:29,020
And these things would be
needed to be evaluated equally

394
00:19:29,020 --> 00:19:31,900
in order for them to acquire
the funding for the next year.

395
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,300
Then in the context
of mentoring,

396
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:36,460
there's not enough
framework in the context

397
00:19:36,460 --> 00:19:38,140
of the different
types of mentoring.

398
00:19:38,140 --> 00:19:40,690
Because I think a lot
of times, postdocs

399
00:19:40,690 --> 00:19:45,370
think that their PI can be
all of the types of mentors

400
00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:46,240
that they need.

401
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,670
And actually most of the time,
we need a myriad of mentors

402
00:19:48,670 --> 00:19:50,750
to be able to accomplish
the goals that we need.

403
00:19:50,750 --> 00:19:53,770
And so actually setting
guidelines around and making

404
00:19:53,770 --> 00:19:57,155
institutions have mentoring
committees for postdocs

405
00:19:57,155 --> 00:19:58,780
would allow for them
to be able to have

406
00:19:58,780 --> 00:20:01,430
greater access to other
training opportunities.

407
00:20:01,430 --> 00:20:03,700
And so that is part of
that whole mentoring piece

408
00:20:03,700 --> 00:20:05,520
that we need to explore more.

409
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:06,940
And one last thing
about mentoring

410
00:20:06,940 --> 00:20:10,300
is that we also need to think
about mentoring contracts, as

411
00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:13,360
well as understanding other
tools, like acquiring mentoring

412
00:20:13,360 --> 00:20:15,790
tools to accomplish their
network on social media

413
00:20:15,790 --> 00:20:18,580
and networking, as well as
understanding who they are,

414
00:20:18,580 --> 00:20:21,245
and how that integrates
into their science.

415
00:20:21,245 --> 00:20:22,870
The second point that
I wanted to raise

416
00:20:22,870 --> 00:20:26,210
is around how we
think about funding.

417
00:20:26,210 --> 00:20:28,623
So there's been a lot of
great ideas about funding.

418
00:20:28,623 --> 00:20:30,790
But one of the things that
I really want to focus on

419
00:20:30,790 --> 00:20:34,420
is that let's say a postdoc
has maxed out the five years.

420
00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:36,700
But they need one
more year to get

421
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:40,690
that CNS paper or a top-tier
paper in their society.

422
00:20:40,690 --> 00:20:43,210
That means that there needs
to be an alternative route,

423
00:20:43,210 --> 00:20:47,350
or there needs to be a change in
association with postdoc title.

424
00:20:47,350 --> 00:20:49,180
A lot of the times
in academia we're

425
00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:52,630
actually aware of that
instructor, or associate,

426
00:20:52,630 --> 00:20:57,160
or staff scientist, technically
some of the older generation

427
00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,680
calls it like a super
or a senior postdoc.

428
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,440
And so even though it's an
entry-level junior faculty

429
00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:04,120
position, these
things should still

430
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,580
be associated with
postdoc, but a degree

431
00:21:06,580 --> 00:21:10,360
beyond where they're the
five year training plan

432
00:21:10,360 --> 00:21:11,290
meets for a postdoc.

433
00:21:11,290 --> 00:21:12,998
It's just a different
title, so that they

434
00:21:12,998 --> 00:21:14,120
can stay in the system.

435
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:17,530
So if the NIH actually adjusts
what they're calling postdocs,

436
00:21:17,530 --> 00:21:19,660
when you have a difference
in first five years,

437
00:21:19,660 --> 00:21:23,110
and then a second phase,
and support a specific K

438
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:25,540
for that phase, so
that they can either

439
00:21:25,540 --> 00:21:27,550
transition into a
faculty position,

440
00:21:27,550 --> 00:21:32,440
or transition out into
another type of job.

441
00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,320
And that still would be
along with the training plan,

442
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:36,910
because a lot of
these positions that

443
00:21:36,910 --> 00:21:38,920
don't make it to directly
the academia, going

444
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,560
to teaching or other
impressive roles

445
00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:43,100
within the scientific community.

446
00:21:43,100 --> 00:21:44,590
So those needs
could be recorded.

447
00:21:44,590 --> 00:21:48,040
And that also is a trap for
a lot of minority candidates,

448
00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:49,888
because at the
time of five years,

449
00:21:49,888 --> 00:21:51,430
there's a critical
junction that they

450
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:53,260
may have other
responsibilities not only

451
00:21:53,260 --> 00:21:55,083
within their own
family structure,

452
00:21:55,083 --> 00:21:56,500
but also the larger
scheme of when

453
00:21:56,500 --> 00:22:00,290
they're taking care of parents
and other close relatives.

454
00:22:00,290 --> 00:22:02,590
So we have to be
accommodating for that as well

455
00:22:02,590 --> 00:22:03,880
as the sliding scale.

456
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,730
A lot of people don't know
that the minimum is not

457
00:22:06,730 --> 00:22:08,980
the "maximum" quote-unquote
that is set online.

458
00:22:08,980 --> 00:22:10,090
It's really the minimum.

459
00:22:10,090 --> 00:22:12,072
And so that also
needs to be clear.

460
00:22:12,072 --> 00:22:14,530
Because this is some of the
negotiation that could actually

461
00:22:14,530 --> 00:22:19,690
happen within the mentoring plan
that, based upon these things,

462
00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:21,430
your salary could increase.

463
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:24,350
With that, relocation
fees are very important.

464
00:22:24,350 --> 00:22:26,410
There's a lot of
minority candidates

465
00:22:26,410 --> 00:22:31,360
and I'm speaking as one that
needed relocation costs as well

466
00:22:31,360 --> 00:22:33,460
as a signing bonus, to
be able to move and do

467
00:22:33,460 --> 00:22:36,850
the things in that space,
because I didn't have time

468
00:22:36,850 --> 00:22:38,710
to work on those
personal things.

469
00:22:38,710 --> 00:22:40,510
I was more working on
my degree at the time

470
00:22:40,510 --> 00:22:41,980
when I was getting my PhD.

471
00:22:41,980 --> 00:22:44,620
So this is a critical
moment that could really

472
00:22:44,620 --> 00:22:46,960
make a difference in
how we see postdocs,

473
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,960
and give them the boost that
they need to be productive,

474
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,910
excited about the science.

475
00:22:51,910 --> 00:22:54,130
Because the other financial
commitment has been taken

476
00:22:54,130 --> 00:22:54,977
care of.

477
00:22:54,977 --> 00:22:57,310
And then the very last thing
that I wanted to talk about

478
00:22:57,310 --> 00:22:59,260
is resources in the postdoc.

479
00:22:59,260 --> 00:23:01,480
There should be a
set training plan.

480
00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,060
So we have phases of
NMRA and SIMRA

481
00:23:04,060 --> 00:23:06,310
out there that talk about
culturally aware mentorship.

482
00:23:06,310 --> 00:23:09,970
But there's not a package around
the professional and career

483
00:23:09,970 --> 00:23:12,530
development skills that are
needed for them to transition.

484
00:23:12,530 --> 00:23:14,020
So a lot of times
when I'm writing

485
00:23:14,020 --> 00:23:16,120
these particular articles
that were mentioned,

486
00:23:16,120 --> 00:23:18,370
they are talking
about the skill sets

487
00:23:18,370 --> 00:23:20,440
that postdocs need or
graduate students need

488
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,150
to advance to the next stage.

489
00:23:22,150 --> 00:23:25,180
Postdocs are not aware of
the negotiation process.

490
00:23:25,180 --> 00:23:29,270
They're not aware of what can be
asked and what should be asked.

491
00:23:29,270 --> 00:23:31,240
So a lot of these
conversations would only

492
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,600
have to happen with the PI.

493
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,182
So we have to be a aware of
those particular conversations

494
00:23:35,182 --> 00:23:37,640
and adjust so that they have
the information that they need

495
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,130
to make the most pivotal
decision that's going to be

496
00:23:40,130 --> 00:23:41,600
the next stage in their career.

497
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,490
And also training
for that position,

498
00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:45,110
as in the context of business.

499
00:23:45,110 --> 00:23:47,870
So I really feel that the
NIH should be more required

500
00:23:47,870 --> 00:23:50,900
and this is my last thought
because I'm a little over,

501
00:23:50,900 --> 00:23:53,330
that the NIH really
needs to think

502
00:23:53,330 --> 00:23:56,480
about in the context of how
do they do business management

503
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:59,360
or laboratory management
skills for the postdoc,

504
00:23:59,360 --> 00:24:01,610
so that they're successful
at the next training stage.

505
00:24:01,610 --> 00:24:05,815
Because a lot of them will phase
out of the stage of helping,

506
00:24:05,815 --> 00:24:07,190
because there's
not a requirement

507
00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:09,890
for mentoring committees
at the faculty stage.

508
00:24:09,890 --> 00:24:11,600
So that's all I
have to say for now.

509
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,630
Thank you.

510
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:17,180
TARA SCHWETZ: Thank you so much.

511
00:24:17,180 --> 00:24:20,960
So now, I'm going
to open the floor

512
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,230
to your comments and
questions, those folks who

513
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:26,430
are in attendance.

514
00:24:26,430 --> 00:24:28,490
And as noted at the
beginning of the meeting,

515
00:24:28,490 --> 00:24:30,930
please share your input
using the QA function.

516
00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:34,130
We've already got a number
of different comments

517
00:24:34,130 --> 00:24:35,990
and questions coming through.

518
00:24:35,990 --> 00:24:41,690
You may provide your comment
directly, or the general topic

519
00:24:41,690 --> 00:24:43,070
of your comment.

520
00:24:43,070 --> 00:24:45,710
Again, we will then ask
individual participants

521
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:49,880
to unmute, and at that time
when you're spotlighted,

522
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:51,680
you will be able to unmute.

523
00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,140
Because that function
is not currently active

524
00:24:54,140 --> 00:24:54,980
across the board.

525
00:24:54,980 --> 00:24:58,070
But once you are spotlighted,
you will have that ability.

526
00:24:58,070 --> 00:25:02,030
And then we will ask you to then
share your thoughts out loud,

527
00:25:02,030 --> 00:25:04,880
asking you to limit your time
to one or two minutes, just

528
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,340
to allow us, again to
hear from as many people

529
00:25:07,340 --> 00:25:11,540
as we can during
this hour session.

530
00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:13,885
Again, if you prefer
to comment anonymously,

531
00:25:13,885 --> 00:25:15,260
please note that
in your comment.

532
00:25:15,260 --> 00:25:17,270
One of the facilitators
will read it out

533
00:25:17,270 --> 00:25:20,960
loud without attribution.

534
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:27,200
So with that, I believe I'm
going turn it over to Judith

535
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:32,300
first to go over
the first comment.

536
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:34,490
JUDITH KIMBLE: OK Well, thanks.

537
00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:36,050
Now it's my turn.

538
00:25:36,050 --> 00:25:38,450
And I'd like to welcome Beth.

539
00:25:38,450 --> 00:25:43,370
I think it's Cimini,
who put in a comment

540
00:25:43,370 --> 00:25:49,280
on the value of postdoctoral
training to academia.

541
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,940
And I wonder if Beth
could unmute, and tell us

542
00:25:52,940 --> 00:25:55,933
about her comment please.

543
00:25:55,933 --> 00:25:56,600
BETH CIMINI: Hi.

544
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,073
Can you hear me?

545
00:25:58,073 --> 00:25:58,990
JUDITH KIMBLE: We can.

546
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:06,620
BETH CIMINI: So, my
comment was related to--

547
00:26:06,620 --> 00:26:09,830
and some of the panelists
have already touched on this--

548
00:26:09,830 --> 00:26:13,370
what postdocs will do
afterward, and if they

549
00:26:13,370 --> 00:26:16,280
want to stay in academia, the
creation of staff scientist

550
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,800
or other sort of
specialist roles for them.

551
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,610
One thing I haven't
heard much about,

552
00:26:22,610 --> 00:26:25,370
and again, it's not necessarily
for the people on this panel,

553
00:26:25,370 --> 00:26:28,970
more for the whole NIH, is
about having specific training

554
00:26:28,970 --> 00:26:31,160
programs for scientists
specialist roles, things

555
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,620
like bioinformatics, or
working in a microscope core

556
00:26:33,620 --> 00:26:35,510
facility, or things like that.

557
00:26:35,510 --> 00:26:38,000
These training programs aren't
common, but they do exist.

558
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:40,340
And in general, they're
very difficult to fund.

559
00:26:40,340 --> 00:26:42,260
So is this something
that people would

560
00:26:42,260 --> 00:26:49,530
support having RFAs in
order to do, essentially?

561
00:26:49,530 --> 00:26:53,680
JUDITH KIMBLE: So Tara, am
I supposed to answer that,

562
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,800
or should we just move on?

563
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,390
What's the protocol here?

564
00:26:59,390 --> 00:27:01,130
TARA SCHWETZ: Well,
again we're hoping

565
00:27:01,130 --> 00:27:04,100
not to-- we can
provide some clarity,

566
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,290
as appropriate for when there
are clarifying questions.

567
00:27:07,290 --> 00:27:09,560
But we want to make
sure that we're hearing

568
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,400
from as many folks as possible.

569
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:11,900
So--

570
00:27:11,900 --> 00:27:13,275
JUDITH KIMBLE: So
let me just say

571
00:27:13,275 --> 00:27:15,350
Beth I think that's a
really great comment,

572
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:18,470
and it's important.

573
00:27:18,470 --> 00:27:21,800
We think it's definitely
within the things

574
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:23,690
that we're trying
to think about.

575
00:27:23,690 --> 00:27:25,650
And we appreciate your comments.

576
00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:26,482
Thank you.

577
00:27:26,482 --> 00:27:27,440
BETH CIMINI: Thank you.

578
00:27:32,730 --> 00:27:35,880
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: I
guess I will take over now.

579
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:41,280
We would like to call Pallavi
Eswara, if I'm pronouncing it

580
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:42,877
correctly.

581
00:27:42,877 --> 00:27:43,960
PALLAVI ESWARA: Thank you.

582
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,330
I got the opportunity
to be unmuted now.

583
00:27:46,330 --> 00:27:47,440
Yeah, and it's Pallavi.

584
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,070
Thank you.

585
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:49,330
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: OK.

586
00:27:49,330 --> 00:27:51,010
PALLAVI ESWARA: Yes.

587
00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:54,950
So for my short time
that I have here,

588
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:59,050
I wanted to talk about the
importance of mentoring

589
00:27:59,050 --> 00:28:00,940
across the board
for all postdocs,

590
00:28:00,940 --> 00:28:03,670
for international postdocs,
domestic postdocs,

591
00:28:03,670 --> 00:28:08,230
who are not on training grants
or any specific fellowship

592
00:28:08,230 --> 00:28:08,770
program.

593
00:28:08,770 --> 00:28:13,870
I see that as a huge lapse
which leads to unaccountability.

594
00:28:13,870 --> 00:28:15,970
And we don't know where
these postdocs go.

595
00:28:15,970 --> 00:28:18,880
So the other aspect that
I wanted to talk about

596
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:20,500
was around outcomes.

597
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:23,230
How to track postdoc
outcomes, and that it

598
00:28:23,230 --> 00:28:25,420
should be required of
all institutions which

599
00:28:25,420 --> 00:28:29,830
are funded by federal grants
to be tracking their postdocs.

600
00:28:29,830 --> 00:28:34,240
And also, that postdoc outcomes
should become an integral part

601
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,480
of faculty P&T dossier,
and should be included

602
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:38,980
on departmental websites.

603
00:28:38,980 --> 00:28:41,650
It seems like we
sometimes skip who

604
00:28:41,650 --> 00:28:43,540
the postdocs in
each department are.

605
00:28:43,540 --> 00:28:44,620
It seems like an option.

606
00:28:44,620 --> 00:28:45,670
Some departments do it.

607
00:28:45,670 --> 00:28:46,580
Some don't.

608
00:28:46,580 --> 00:28:48,100
So there is some variability.

609
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:52,860
But if we can have some kind
of requirements for all grants

610
00:28:52,860 --> 00:28:54,940
that fund postdocs,
that they should

611
00:28:54,940 --> 00:28:57,640
track their postdoc
outcomes, and also

612
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:02,500
include the names and the
outcomes of their postdocs

613
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:03,250
on their websites.

614
00:29:03,250 --> 00:29:05,840
It would be very helpful.

615
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:06,340
Thank you.

616
00:29:09,515 --> 00:29:10,890
ADRIANA MORALES
GOMEZ: Thank you.

617
00:29:10,890 --> 00:29:13,050
Judith, I don't know if
you want to take over now.

618
00:29:16,490 --> 00:29:19,360
JUDITH KIMBLE: So I think
the next person we are going

619
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,610
to call on is Carrie Leonard.

620
00:29:21,610 --> 00:29:24,625
It was comments about
the parent postdoc issue.

621
00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:33,140
CARRIE LEONARD: OK.

622
00:29:33,140 --> 00:29:35,530
Can you hear me?

623
00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:36,030
Yes?

624
00:29:36,030 --> 00:29:36,990
OK.

625
00:29:36,990 --> 00:29:37,800
Thank you.

626
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:38,430
Yes.

627
00:29:38,430 --> 00:29:42,420
My comment was about the
parent postdoc issue.

628
00:29:42,420 --> 00:29:45,090
But to echo some of the
points that were brought up

629
00:29:45,090 --> 00:29:47,550
by the panelists,
I think it really

630
00:29:47,550 --> 00:29:53,610
applies to more groups
that are underrepresented.

631
00:29:53,610 --> 00:29:56,100
And I'm not sure if it
was said, but also we

632
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:58,530
want to be thinking about
people with disabilities,

633
00:29:58,530 --> 00:30:07,810
and not only for people with
these added life burdens,

634
00:30:07,810 --> 00:30:10,510
but also things just happen.

635
00:30:10,510 --> 00:30:11,320
Life happens.

636
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,270
And sometimes
things take longer.

637
00:30:14,270 --> 00:30:18,310
And I think with
the applications

638
00:30:18,310 --> 00:30:22,340
to the postdoc
fellowships, the intention

639
00:30:22,340 --> 00:30:24,860
is good to try and
put these limits on.

640
00:30:24,860 --> 00:30:29,570
Because I know that NIH wanted
to not have forever postdocs.

641
00:30:29,570 --> 00:30:32,900
But like we said earlier,
when you move into this space,

642
00:30:32,900 --> 00:30:36,080
like me, I'm a
sixth year postdoc,

643
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,600
it is really just
a title change.

644
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,690
There's not much that
effectively comes with that.

645
00:30:41,690 --> 00:30:45,530
And now my funding
opportunities are limited.

646
00:30:45,530 --> 00:30:48,140
And when you try to have a
conversation with program

647
00:30:48,140 --> 00:30:52,460
officers about it, the answer
is often understandably

648
00:30:52,460 --> 00:30:54,980
their hands are kind of
tied by the policies.

649
00:30:54,980 --> 00:30:58,850
And so I think just
accepting as a community

650
00:30:58,850 --> 00:31:01,730
that this transition from
postdoc to independence

651
00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:03,350
is not what it used to be.

652
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:05,270
And while the policies
were put in place

653
00:31:05,270 --> 00:31:07,460
to try to drive it back
to shorter postdocs,

654
00:31:07,460 --> 00:31:09,170
that's just not reality anymore.

655
00:31:09,170 --> 00:31:13,130
And it's for several
reasons, having parents,

656
00:31:13,130 --> 00:31:16,130
having disabilities,
illness, having other family

657
00:31:16,130 --> 00:31:18,020
obligations.

658
00:31:18,020 --> 00:31:19,700
And the fact that
the policies are not

659
00:31:19,700 --> 00:31:22,520
consistent across institutes
doesn't help either,

660
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,852
because you may be used to
one Institute's policies.

661
00:31:26,852 --> 00:31:28,310
And then go look
elsewhere, and you

662
00:31:28,310 --> 00:31:30,230
find you've missed the mark.

663
00:31:30,230 --> 00:31:33,200
And now someone who
was giving NRSAs

664
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,090
up to three or
four years, now you

665
00:31:35,090 --> 00:31:38,160
had to apply within
the first year.

666
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:39,840
That's very confusing.

667
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,650
And when you're in
this kind of transition

668
00:31:42,650 --> 00:31:44,810
that we're hearing so much
about with these longer

669
00:31:44,810 --> 00:31:48,560
postdocs, then the
universities when you're

670
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,170
moving to this next
stage, they can't commit

671
00:31:51,170 --> 00:31:52,730
to giving you a higher salary.

672
00:31:52,730 --> 00:31:55,070
Because it's going
to depend on funding.

673
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:57,588
And then you get
this other pushback

674
00:31:57,588 --> 00:31:59,630
where, well, we can't say
we're going to pay you,

675
00:31:59,630 --> 00:32:01,640
because NIH is
going to check you.

676
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:07,050
So there's this back and forth
about it's nobody's fault,

677
00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:09,100
and it's somebody
else's responsibility.

678
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:11,190
And I think that
clear communication

679
00:32:11,190 --> 00:32:14,460
and clear investment from
both the NIH and institutions

680
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:19,590
is needed about how to support
people during this transition.

681
00:32:22,130 --> 00:32:22,630
Yeah.

682
00:32:26,770 --> 00:32:28,300
ADRIANA MORALES
GOMEZ: Thank you.

683
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:33,010
We're going to also now
call on Aaron Reifler.

684
00:32:33,010 --> 00:32:35,780
Sorry for the
mispronunciation, Reifler.

685
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,335
If you can unmute and
share your comments.

686
00:32:59,060 --> 00:32:59,600
Thank you.

687
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:00,892
AARON REIFLER: Can you hear me?

688
00:33:00,892 --> 00:33:01,460
OK.

689
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:05,680
I just wanted to say thank
you again to everyone.

690
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,190
I loved hearing from Beth and
Pallavi and Carrie as well.

691
00:33:10,190 --> 00:33:13,280
I feel like most of my
comments have already

692
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,290
been stated in some ways.

693
00:33:15,290 --> 00:33:19,250
I had a few questions I put up.

694
00:33:19,250 --> 00:33:22,160
But they covered things like
the budgets for research grants,

695
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,620
how they do directly impact
expectations and outcomes.

696
00:33:25,620 --> 00:33:30,350
And I think that instructions
need to be clearer

697
00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:35,270
within those RFAs and when
people write their proposals

698
00:33:35,270 --> 00:33:37,410
for how mentoring will happen.

699
00:33:37,410 --> 00:33:39,260
And I think that's
already been touched on

700
00:33:39,260 --> 00:33:41,420
from the other comments.

701
00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:45,890
I am wondering about the status
within the NIH regarding things

702
00:33:45,890 --> 00:33:48,320
like the proposals
that Bruce mentioned,

703
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,300
and others have
mentioned, on how

704
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:53,270
we can alleviate some
of the restrictions

705
00:33:53,270 --> 00:33:58,520
on NRSA fellows to allow them
to have benefits from their host

706
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,380
institutions.

707
00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:04,910
And then lastly, I share
some of the same concerns

708
00:34:04,910 --> 00:34:08,420
that others have raised
for folks, especially

709
00:34:08,420 --> 00:34:11,210
those who are interested
in staying in academia,

710
00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:14,330
on how they would be
able to make transitions

711
00:34:14,330 --> 00:34:18,560
when they have difficulty
finding tenure track positions,

712
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:19,280
essentially.

713
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,500
And as some have
mentioned, there

714
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:24,949
are some universities
who have carved out

715
00:34:24,949 --> 00:34:31,940
roles as specialists, or
as other research scientist

716
00:34:31,940 --> 00:34:34,350
positions that are
not on tenure track,

717
00:34:34,350 --> 00:34:36,050
but exclusively in research.

718
00:34:36,050 --> 00:34:42,510
And I would like NIH to
address that stage, or as

719
00:34:42,510 --> 00:34:46,159
a valid career
path, and make sure

720
00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:50,449
that there is funding
that's not either training

721
00:34:50,449 --> 00:34:54,545
or to fund faculty salary.

722
00:34:54,545 --> 00:34:59,750
I would like there to be more
acknowledgment in the research

723
00:34:59,750 --> 00:35:05,060
community and in the
funding agencies for those.

724
00:35:05,060 --> 00:35:08,930
What ends up happening
as career postdocs, which

725
00:35:08,930 --> 00:35:13,130
I don't want to see
happen, because I do

726
00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:14,960
think that there
are individuals who

727
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,380
are very happy being
in the research

728
00:35:18,380 --> 00:35:22,850
space without being a PI or
without being tenure track

729
00:35:22,850 --> 00:35:23,690
faculty.

730
00:35:23,690 --> 00:35:27,290
And that can be very productive.

731
00:35:27,290 --> 00:35:33,060
And I just want to make sure we
support those tracks as well.

732
00:35:33,060 --> 00:35:33,592
Thank you.

733
00:35:33,592 --> 00:35:34,550
Thank you for the time.

734
00:35:39,270 --> 00:35:40,020
JUDITH KIMBLE: OK.

735
00:35:40,020 --> 00:35:42,730
So shall I go next?

736
00:35:42,730 --> 00:35:43,230
Yeah.

737
00:35:43,230 --> 00:35:47,820
So I actually am going
to do two that can't

738
00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:49,330
come on and talk themselves.

739
00:35:49,330 --> 00:35:50,740
So one is an anonymous.

740
00:35:50,740 --> 00:35:52,260
And I think for
anonymous comments,

741
00:35:52,260 --> 00:35:53,400
we're going to read them.

742
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,260
And the other one said that
they didn't have a microphone.

743
00:35:56,260 --> 00:35:57,510
So I'm going to read that too.

744
00:35:57,510 --> 00:35:59,250
So I'm going to do two.

745
00:35:59,250 --> 00:36:05,010
And the first one is from an
anonymous person who says,

746
00:36:05,010 --> 00:36:09,830
can we stop saying that
we are trainees, please?

747
00:36:09,830 --> 00:36:15,360
Have a bit of respect for
highly qualified scientists

748
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,300
that achieve the
highest academic degree

749
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:21,290
would be a first.

750
00:36:21,290 --> 00:36:22,940
So that's a comment.

751
00:36:22,940 --> 00:36:26,140
I think it's a great comment.

752
00:36:26,140 --> 00:36:29,440
I sort of feel in my lab,
people start as trainees

753
00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:31,630
and then very quickly become--

754
00:36:31,630 --> 00:36:34,000
but they do start out
as highly qualified.

755
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,000
You're absolutely right.

756
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,510
And I think that
this is an ambiguity

757
00:36:37,510 --> 00:36:40,750
that we need to think about.

758
00:36:40,750 --> 00:36:45,820
The second comment is
from Abe [? Cukier ?]

759
00:36:45,820 --> 00:36:47,140
I think is his last name.

760
00:36:47,140 --> 00:36:47,770
I'm not sure.

761
00:36:47,770 --> 00:36:50,410
He says he doesn't
have access to a mic.

762
00:36:50,410 --> 00:36:55,180
And his comment is
as a PhD student,

763
00:36:55,180 --> 00:36:59,710
I am driven away from a
postdoc due to the ambiguity

764
00:36:59,710 --> 00:37:03,460
of the structure
or lack thereof.

765
00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:05,890
Although the hard
work put in could

766
00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:08,860
be the same in industry
versus a postdoc,

767
00:37:08,860 --> 00:37:11,380
in industry from
the interviews I

768
00:37:11,380 --> 00:37:14,380
have had so far, it's
structurally clear

769
00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:18,770
how the next 5 to 10
years will look like.

770
00:37:18,770 --> 00:37:21,850
And so the uncertainties
associated with postdocs

771
00:37:21,850 --> 00:37:25,780
are too big of a burden
compared to other opportunities.

772
00:37:25,780 --> 00:37:28,510
I think that's another
really important comment.

773
00:37:28,510 --> 00:37:29,665
So thank you for that.

774
00:37:36,335 --> 00:37:37,710
ADRIANA MORALES
GOMEZ: Thank you.

775
00:37:37,710 --> 00:37:42,300
And then I am going to
call on Allyn Howlett,

776
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:50,250
or A-L-L-Y-N Howlett, if
you would like to unmute.

777
00:37:50,250 --> 00:37:52,005
ALLYN HOWLETT: I'm
unmuted now, I believe.

778
00:37:52,005 --> 00:37:53,130
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yes.

779
00:37:53,130 --> 00:37:55,500
Yes.

780
00:37:55,500 --> 00:37:59,640
ALLYN HOWLETT: Addressing
some of the earlier comments,

781
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,550
and I made my comment
before I saw these.

782
00:38:02,550 --> 00:38:09,000
But most institutions are
very hesitant to move postdocs

783
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:15,030
into a faculty title position,
even if it's not a tenure track

784
00:38:15,030 --> 00:38:16,290
faculty.

785
00:38:16,290 --> 00:38:19,710
By putting postdocs
in these job titles

786
00:38:19,710 --> 00:38:24,120
that are staff type
titles, it really

787
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,460
restricts their
ability to continue

788
00:38:26,460 --> 00:38:27,960
to look for jobs elsewhere.

789
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:34,080
Because it looks as if they are
just a senior postdoc, or not

790
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:34,860
contributing.

791
00:38:34,860 --> 00:38:39,720
But in today's
research translational

792
00:38:39,720 --> 00:38:41,790
and clinical
environment, we have

793
00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:45,600
lots of opportunities
for individuals

794
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:50,950
to do team research that are
not faculty level job titles.

795
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:55,020
This is not just a problem for
the postdocs looking for jobs.

796
00:38:55,020 --> 00:39:00,330
But it's also a program
training grant problem.

797
00:39:00,330 --> 00:39:03,510
Because the review
committees tend

798
00:39:03,510 --> 00:39:08,250
to think that if the postdoc has
not gone on to a tenure track

799
00:39:08,250 --> 00:39:14,370
faculty position that they are
not successful in the training

800
00:39:14,370 --> 00:39:17,745
that they received in their
postdoc training grants.

801
00:39:25,565 --> 00:39:27,440
JUDITH KIMBLE: So thank
you for that comment.

802
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,310
And let's move onto the next
one from Susanna Brantley, who's

803
00:39:32,310 --> 00:39:35,790
talking about how a
postdoctoral position sets

804
00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:38,160
postdocs back from
saving for their future.

805
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:39,270
Susanna?

806
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:41,010
Could you unmute
yourself, please?

807
00:39:41,010 --> 00:39:42,120
SUSANNA BRANTLEY: Hi.

808
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,430
Yeah, thank you.

809
00:39:44,430 --> 00:39:51,060
So I'm on the postdoc
association at Duke University.

810
00:39:51,060 --> 00:39:52,920
And so this comment is personal.

811
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:54,868
But also is a thing
that we've heard

812
00:39:54,868 --> 00:39:56,160
a lot from a bunch of postdocs.

813
00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,090
I just wanted to mention that
I was speaking for an issue

814
00:40:01,090 --> 00:40:03,790
that I've heard a lot
of comments about.

815
00:40:03,790 --> 00:40:06,370
So basically the
idea, and it touches

816
00:40:06,370 --> 00:40:08,530
on this idea that
postdocs, especially

817
00:40:08,530 --> 00:40:10,540
those on NIH
fellowships, are not

818
00:40:10,540 --> 00:40:14,020
considered employees based
on ambiguous language

819
00:40:14,020 --> 00:40:15,640
from the NIH.

820
00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,640
And so that sets
us back from saving

821
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:20,950
for retirement and
other benefits,

822
00:40:20,950 --> 00:40:24,370
for example, paying taxes
on health care costs,

823
00:40:24,370 --> 00:40:26,750
and things like that.

824
00:40:26,750 --> 00:40:29,080
So this especially
impacts postdocs

825
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:31,540
whose families are unable
to help financially

826
00:40:31,540 --> 00:40:34,983
support major life goals,
such as buying a first house,

827
00:40:34,983 --> 00:40:36,650
saving for retirement,
all those things.

828
00:40:36,650 --> 00:40:38,530
So it does seem
to reinforce sort

829
00:40:38,530 --> 00:40:41,140
of a lack of generational
wealth, which

830
00:40:41,140 --> 00:40:44,330
is an underrepresented
group in my opinion.

831
00:40:44,330 --> 00:40:46,840
And so this compounds
over the low salary that's

832
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:50,860
been talked about in the long
term, especially when peers

833
00:40:50,860 --> 00:40:54,010
that are entering other
fields like biotech industry,

834
00:40:54,010 --> 00:40:57,050
they can start saving
for their future.

835
00:40:57,050 --> 00:40:59,230
And I think also to
touch on this idea

836
00:40:59,230 --> 00:41:04,300
of the anonymous comment that
was just read, that what's

837
00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:05,890
the value of a postdoc.

838
00:41:05,890 --> 00:41:11,290
And how much value we bring by
having these advanced degrees,

839
00:41:11,290 --> 00:41:16,240
and training, and
passion for what we do,

840
00:41:16,240 --> 00:41:19,390
I think it kind of undermines
our expertise and value

841
00:41:19,390 --> 00:41:22,360
when we're not employees, and
don't get the benefits that

842
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,220
come with being an employee.

843
00:41:24,220 --> 00:41:28,510
And so my solution to
this is that the NIH

844
00:41:28,510 --> 00:41:31,060
should change its language
to clarify to institutions

845
00:41:31,060 --> 00:41:32,935
that postdocs should be
considered employees,

846
00:41:32,935 --> 00:41:35,980
and really encourage
institutions or somehow require

847
00:41:35,980 --> 00:41:40,630
them to provide retirement
benefits and health benefits,

848
00:41:40,630 --> 00:41:43,630
outside of your funding.

849
00:41:43,630 --> 00:41:44,930
Thanks so much for this forum.

850
00:41:44,930 --> 00:41:46,960
It's great.

851
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,150
JUDITH KIMBLE: Thanks so
much for that comment.

852
00:41:49,150 --> 00:41:51,027
Adriana, are you
next or my next.

853
00:41:51,027 --> 00:41:52,360
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: I'm next.

854
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:54,295
Can we call on Holly Grith?

855
00:41:57,809 --> 00:41:59,100
Or [? Grithe? ?]

856
00:41:59,100 --> 00:42:00,230
JUDITH KIMBLE: Wright?

857
00:42:00,230 --> 00:42:00,935
Holly Wright.

858
00:42:00,935 --> 00:42:02,060
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yes.

859
00:42:02,060 --> 00:42:02,650
Holly Wright.

860
00:42:02,650 --> 00:42:03,550
HOLLY WRIGHT: Oh, OK.

861
00:42:03,550 --> 00:42:04,435
Can you hear me now?

862
00:42:04,435 --> 00:42:05,560
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yes.

863
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:06,892
HOLLY WRIGHT: Great sorry I--

864
00:42:09,670 --> 00:42:12,490
question or statement
is that it actually

865
00:42:12,490 --> 00:42:17,010
follows the previous
one very nicely I think.

866
00:42:17,010 --> 00:42:19,680
Tracking the outcomes
for NIH funded trainees

867
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:21,970
is absolutely essential.

868
00:42:21,970 --> 00:42:25,650
And I happen to be in
research administration,

869
00:42:25,650 --> 00:42:27,510
where I manage NSRA grants.

870
00:42:27,510 --> 00:42:31,420
And we struggle with
collecting that data.

871
00:42:31,420 --> 00:42:33,660
We struggle with
reporting it accurately,

872
00:42:33,660 --> 00:42:36,360
because the taxonomy
around employment

873
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,270
is inconsistent
across institutions.

874
00:42:39,270 --> 00:42:42,780
And NIH instructions
regarding the language

875
00:42:42,780 --> 00:42:46,170
that we use to describe
our pre-docs and postdocs

876
00:42:46,170 --> 00:42:52,950
and their careers following
their training is vague.

877
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:59,440
As the folks managing and
saving that information in order

878
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,580
to report it, so that it can
be acted upon by the NIH,

879
00:43:03,580 --> 00:43:06,490
we need clear definitions
and common taxonomies

880
00:43:06,490 --> 00:43:09,430
in order to ensure that we
have clean and effective

881
00:43:09,430 --> 00:43:11,440
current data, so
that we can track

882
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:13,420
the effect of NIH
training programs

883
00:43:13,420 --> 00:43:15,670
as those changes
are implemented.

884
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:17,650
At this point in
time, it seems to me

885
00:43:17,650 --> 00:43:25,200
that if the NIH suddenly changed
based on what postdocs need

886
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,960
and want in order to be
successful and move forward

887
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,680
in academic careers, and
the NIH changed things,

888
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,272
we wouldn't be able to
clearly explain whether or not

889
00:43:35,272 --> 00:43:36,480
those changes were effective.

890
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,920
Because we just do not have
common language around careers.

891
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,315
That's it.

892
00:43:43,315 --> 00:43:44,190
JUDITH KIMBLE: Great.

893
00:43:44,190 --> 00:43:45,310
Thank you so much.

894
00:43:45,310 --> 00:43:51,270
And so I think we'd like to next
call on Lisa Privette Vinnedge

895
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:52,710
if I've said that correctly.

896
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,090
LISA PRIVETTE VINNEDGE:
Can you hear me?

897
00:43:59,090 --> 00:43:59,590
All right.

898
00:43:59,590 --> 00:44:01,758
Thank you for the opportunity.

899
00:44:01,758 --> 00:44:03,550
And you got the name
pronunciation correct.

900
00:44:03,550 --> 00:44:04,300
So that's awesome.

901
00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:07,100
It doesn't happen often.

902
00:44:07,100 --> 00:44:09,160
So I'm a postdoc
office director.

903
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,290
I've been in this
role for eight years.

904
00:44:11,290 --> 00:44:15,400
And something that
really frustrates me,

905
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,530
because all these
ideas are great.

906
00:44:17,530 --> 00:44:20,620
But when I go to the
institutional leadership

907
00:44:20,620 --> 00:44:24,510
and the senior faculty that
are making the decisions,

908
00:44:24,510 --> 00:44:27,900
nothing happens because there's
no incentive, I guess to say.

909
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:35,310
So I think the NIH needs to lead
a culture change, and a change

910
00:44:35,310 --> 00:44:41,100
in perspective that will trickle
down to leaders of institutions

911
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:43,800
through meaningful actions
and updated reporting

912
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,400
requirements to the NIH.

913
00:44:45,400 --> 00:44:50,280
So the current
leaders perpetuate

914
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:56,670
the antiquated culture of abuse,
unreasonable expectations,

915
00:44:56,670 --> 00:45:03,270
vague outcomes, no tolerance
for non-academic careers.

916
00:45:03,270 --> 00:45:07,620
And those leaders are
running the institutions

917
00:45:07,620 --> 00:45:10,380
and there's not going to
be a support for building

918
00:45:10,380 --> 00:45:15,150
infrastructures that
build up post-docs

919
00:45:15,150 --> 00:45:18,990
and help them with
their career advancement

920
00:45:18,990 --> 00:45:22,680
without being told by the
NIH that they have to,

921
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:28,020
without some expectation
of reporting outcomes,

922
00:45:28,020 --> 00:45:33,630
tracking data, holding
them accountable from just

923
00:45:33,630 --> 00:45:35,220
a purely financial perspective.

924
00:45:35,220 --> 00:45:39,060
The institutions will not do
it unless the carrot of NIH

925
00:45:39,060 --> 00:45:43,660
funding is something
that they're

926
00:45:43,660 --> 00:45:45,700
going to have to
earn in order to get.

927
00:45:49,090 --> 00:45:50,253
JUDITH KIMBLE: Thank you.

928
00:45:50,253 --> 00:45:51,670
ADRIANA MORALES
GOMEZ: We're going

929
00:45:51,670 --> 00:45:54,910
to call next on Riley DeBacker.

930
00:46:02,730 --> 00:46:03,930
RILEY DEBACKER: Thank you.

931
00:46:03,930 --> 00:46:07,380
My comment was centered
around the fact returning

932
00:46:07,380 --> 00:46:11,460
to the discussion of salary,
as was mentioned earlier.

933
00:46:11,460 --> 00:46:15,910
Salary is a major barrier to
postdocs for a lot of people,

934
00:46:15,910 --> 00:46:21,000
myself included, especially like
access to resources and support

935
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,270
from family.

936
00:46:22,270 --> 00:46:26,880
And I think the
NIH current postdoc

937
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,760
system is rather notable in
that there's no adjustment based

938
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:33,030
on locality, while other
federal systems like the VA,

939
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:37,500
do have those adjustments,
and make those more desirable.

940
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:38,880
When I was looking
for a postdoc,

941
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:43,170
I stopped looking
anytime I saw the NSRA

942
00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:45,300
salary, because I
knew that wasn't

943
00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:47,500
practical for me and my family.

944
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:49,470
And so I took a
position with the VA,

945
00:46:49,470 --> 00:46:51,000
because I knew it
would be adjusted,

946
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,400
and I'd be paid a
rate representing

947
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,680
the fact that I have
significant advanced training.

948
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,760
And so I wonder, especially
since these systems

949
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:04,380
for locality adjustments already
exist in other federal systems,

950
00:47:04,380 --> 00:47:10,020
if NIH is considering
implementing those to help

951
00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:12,630
restore some equity
to the system.

952
00:47:19,843 --> 00:47:21,510
JUDITH KIMBLE: Well,
thank you for that.

953
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:24,513
And so the next comment
will be from Erica--

954
00:47:24,513 --> 00:47:26,180
and this is a challenging
one, Gobrogge.

955
00:47:31,168 --> 00:47:33,210
ERICA GOBROGGE: That was
exactly right, actually.

956
00:47:33,210 --> 00:47:35,790
Thank you for the
opportunity to comment.

957
00:47:35,790 --> 00:47:39,180
I actually wanted to expand on
two things that were already

958
00:47:39,180 --> 00:47:41,163
mentioned that I
strongly agree with.

959
00:47:41,163 --> 00:47:43,080
Several people have
talked about opportunities

960
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,020
for non-faculty researchers,
so people who have PhDs,

961
00:47:46,020 --> 00:47:47,670
have done a postdoc,
and would like

962
00:47:47,670 --> 00:47:50,370
to stay in the academic
system, and specifically we

963
00:47:50,370 --> 00:47:53,460
would love to see an expansion
of the R50 mechanism.

964
00:47:53,460 --> 00:47:55,860
We've had some
former postdocs who

965
00:47:55,860 --> 00:47:58,320
have gone on to be on R50s,
and that's benefited I think

966
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,090
both them and our institutions.

967
00:48:00,090 --> 00:48:02,790
So that would be
wonderful if NIH

968
00:48:02,790 --> 00:48:04,260
would consider expanding that.

969
00:48:04,260 --> 00:48:06,600
And then to echo, I think
several people's comments

970
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:08,130
about NRSAs.

971
00:48:08,130 --> 00:48:10,170
We have also really
struggled with that.

972
00:48:10,170 --> 00:48:14,550
We have a new T32,
and our institution

973
00:48:14,550 --> 00:48:16,267
has really struggled.

974
00:48:16,267 --> 00:48:17,100
We're a small place.

975
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:18,490
We only have 65 postdocs.

976
00:48:18,490 --> 00:48:20,895
So we can't take
many of the options

977
00:48:20,895 --> 00:48:23,520
that other institutions have to
put their postdocs on a totally

978
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:24,570
separate benefit plan.

979
00:48:24,570 --> 00:48:26,760
So I would really love to
see clarification that we

980
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:27,960
can employ those postdocs.

981
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:30,270
It's harming them right now.

982
00:48:30,270 --> 00:48:33,630
And I would love to see that we
can have clear language that we

983
00:48:33,630 --> 00:48:34,450
can employ them.

984
00:48:34,450 --> 00:48:38,000
So thank you for the
opportunity to comment.

985
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,950
ADRIANA MORALES
GOMEZ: Thank you.

986
00:48:39,950 --> 00:48:46,430
I'm going to follow up with a
reading an anonymous comment.

987
00:48:46,430 --> 00:48:49,910
And it says, I think the
academic system is not

988
00:48:49,910 --> 00:48:50,850
feasible.

989
00:48:50,850 --> 00:48:53,340
There's so much
stress at every level.

990
00:48:53,340 --> 00:48:56,570
Postdocs are stressed
because of uncertain career.

991
00:48:56,570 --> 00:49:00,980
I also see new PIs struggling
because they can't get R01.

992
00:49:00,980 --> 00:49:05,420
I wonder if we need a more
realistic approach than an IDP

993
00:49:05,420 --> 00:49:09,950
to mentor, so postdocs can
find other job opportunities

994
00:49:09,950 --> 00:49:15,140
instead of struggling
to get academia job

995
00:49:15,140 --> 00:49:17,840
and then struggling
to survive there.

996
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,980
Every year, explore the
viability of academic job,

997
00:49:21,980 --> 00:49:24,540
and whether or not
it is worth it.

998
00:49:24,540 --> 00:49:28,430
Maybe fewer postdocs and PIs
would be better for everyone,

999
00:49:28,430 --> 00:49:31,190
if we can't change the
financial situation

1000
00:49:31,190 --> 00:49:34,760
and support people
we get into academia.

1001
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,670
I feel like I was
drowning the whole time,

1002
00:49:37,670 --> 00:49:40,550
trying to make it to
academic position.

1003
00:49:40,550 --> 00:49:44,870
I'm settling for a non-academic
scientist position for now

1004
00:49:44,870 --> 00:49:46,625
to continue enjoying science.

1005
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:51,800
JUDITH KIMBLE: So,
I'm going to follow

1006
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,920
that one with another anonymous
attendee that I'll read.

1007
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,490
It says, it appears
that the only grant that

1008
00:49:58,490 --> 00:50:00,740
can be considered a
path to independence

1009
00:50:00,740 --> 00:50:04,910
for international
postdocs is the K99 grant.

1010
00:50:04,910 --> 00:50:07,580
But that comes with
a timeline, to apply

1011
00:50:07,580 --> 00:50:11,150
within three to four
years transition,

1012
00:50:11,150 --> 00:50:14,030
and preferably requires
a first author paper.

1013
00:50:14,030 --> 00:50:16,610
This timeline sounds reasonable.

1014
00:50:16,610 --> 00:50:18,860
But in reality, postdocs,
especially working

1015
00:50:18,860 --> 00:50:22,230
with mouse models, need much
longer time to get a paper.

1016
00:50:22,230 --> 00:50:25,160
So my point is more
number of grants

1017
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:28,970
for both
international/everyone, which

1018
00:50:28,970 --> 00:50:32,360
will facilitate transition
to independent faculty

1019
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,950
position, so more K99s.

1020
00:50:39,390 --> 00:50:41,745
OK, Adriana?

1021
00:50:41,745 --> 00:50:42,870
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yes.

1022
00:50:42,870 --> 00:50:45,500
We're going to call
now on Tara Fischer.

1023
00:50:50,142 --> 00:50:50,850
TARA FISCHER: Hi.

1024
00:50:50,850 --> 00:50:51,000
Yeah.

1025
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:51,240
Thank you.

1026
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:52,150
Can you hear me OK?

1027
00:50:52,150 --> 00:50:52,560
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yes.

1028
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:53,305
TARA FISCHER: OK.

1029
00:50:53,305 --> 00:50:54,930
Yeah, thank you so
much for this forum.

1030
00:50:54,930 --> 00:50:57,720
And I just I have
to say just briefly,

1031
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:01,140
I echo what everybody has
said, especially those who

1032
00:51:01,140 --> 00:51:04,890
have called for more permanent
positions in academic research,

1033
00:51:04,890 --> 00:51:07,410
or at least an
alternative that people

1034
00:51:07,410 --> 00:51:12,270
who want to stay in academia can
stay in another position other

1035
00:51:12,270 --> 00:51:13,540
than just PI.

1036
00:51:13,540 --> 00:51:17,010
So if that can be done, then
that would just be excellent.

1037
00:51:17,010 --> 00:51:19,530
And I'm happy to hear other
people who also think the same.

1038
00:51:19,530 --> 00:51:22,740
But I wanted to ask kind
of a different question

1039
00:51:22,740 --> 00:51:25,140
than what has been
discussed so far.

1040
00:51:25,140 --> 00:51:28,290
And this was on a point that
was made on the expectations

1041
00:51:28,290 --> 00:51:30,813
for lengthening time to publish.

1042
00:51:30,813 --> 00:51:32,730
And a part of this
lengthening time to publish

1043
00:51:32,730 --> 00:51:35,220
is the cultural value
around CNS papers,

1044
00:51:35,220 --> 00:51:36,420
and these glam journals.

1045
00:51:36,420 --> 00:51:39,810
And this being considered
in their research

1046
00:51:39,810 --> 00:51:42,780
evaluations for positions,
promotions, and funding.

1047
00:51:42,780 --> 00:51:44,370
Now, we posting
in these journals

1048
00:51:44,370 --> 00:51:46,020
requires enormous
amounts of data

1049
00:51:46,020 --> 00:51:47,940
that are unreasonable
to obtain in the time

1050
00:51:47,940 --> 00:51:50,130
limits of a postdoc,
and are skewed

1051
00:51:50,130 --> 00:51:53,260
towards highly funded labs,
and specific institutions,

1052
00:51:53,260 --> 00:51:55,470
particularly affecting
underrepresented labs

1053
00:51:55,470 --> 00:51:56,790
and postdocs.

1054
00:51:56,790 --> 00:52:01,890
Will the NIH consider changing
research evaluation procedures,

1055
00:52:01,890 --> 00:52:03,960
specifically for grants
and other things that

1056
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,140
are more in line to
those expressed by DORA,

1057
00:52:07,140 --> 00:52:09,270
being focused on the
quality of research,

1058
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:11,520
not the journal in which
they are published?

1059
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,400
This could really make, I
think, really great advances

1060
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,220
in changing the culture
around glam journals

1061
00:52:17,220 --> 00:52:19,770
and the expectations
for postdocs to publish

1062
00:52:19,770 --> 00:52:21,300
in these particular journals.

1063
00:52:25,830 --> 00:52:29,370
JUDITH KIMBLE: OK, excellent.

1064
00:52:29,370 --> 00:52:33,450
I think the next one is
also an anonymous attendee.

1065
00:52:33,450 --> 00:52:37,440
It says, many postdocs
except from the awards

1066
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,660
granted by NIH grants to PIs.

1067
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:47,170
Many postdocs, except from
the awards, are granted by--

1068
00:52:47,170 --> 00:52:48,310
I don't know.

1069
00:52:48,310 --> 00:52:52,090
These PIs open postdoc
positions in their labs,

1070
00:52:52,090 --> 00:52:55,720
but each position is filled
following diverse recruitment

1071
00:52:55,720 --> 00:52:58,390
criteria that depends on
the PI, the Department,

1072
00:52:58,390 --> 00:53:00,130
and the institution.

1073
00:53:00,130 --> 00:53:04,870
This creates a sort of black box
where decisions are made with

1074
00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:09,070
variable degrees of success
that we cannot anticipate.

1075
00:53:09,070 --> 00:53:13,180
Could a common
application job search hub

1076
00:53:13,180 --> 00:53:16,060
be created to unify
and democratize

1077
00:53:16,060 --> 00:53:19,930
the access to all
positions, not only awards?

1078
00:53:19,930 --> 00:53:22,060
Maybe this could be
achieved by creating

1079
00:53:22,060 --> 00:53:27,140
committees similar to
review panels for grants.

1080
00:53:27,140 --> 00:53:30,230
It's an interesting idea.

1081
00:53:30,230 --> 00:53:31,775
OK, the next one, Adriana?

1082
00:53:31,775 --> 00:53:32,900
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yep.

1083
00:53:32,900 --> 00:53:36,695
We're going to call on
Maya, or Maja Bucan.

1084
00:53:43,077 --> 00:53:43,910
MAJA BUCAN: Perfect.

1085
00:53:43,910 --> 00:53:45,360
Can you hear me now?

1086
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:46,730
ADRIANA MORALES GOMEZ: Yes.

1087
00:53:46,730 --> 00:53:49,550
MAJA BUCAN: I have a comment
regarding the tracking

1088
00:53:49,550 --> 00:53:51,680
of postdoc outcome data.

1089
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:53,780
This is in my view
very important,

1090
00:53:53,780 --> 00:53:56,720
because we were often
hear at conferences

1091
00:53:56,720 --> 00:53:58,760
that this data do not exist.

1092
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,490
And we heard that
today from a speaker.

1093
00:54:01,490 --> 00:54:04,490
But this is an
issue from a speaker

1094
00:54:04,490 --> 00:54:08,720
and also from participants,
postdocs, and administrators.

1095
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:14,270
I would like to remind many
that actually this data exists,

1096
00:54:14,270 --> 00:54:18,890
that effort is organized by
Coalition for Life Sciences.

1097
00:54:18,890 --> 00:54:23,840
And unfortunately, data
comes in such a form

1098
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:26,210
that it's very
hard to analyze it.

1099
00:54:26,210 --> 00:54:29,180
There are actually
50 institutions

1100
00:54:29,180 --> 00:54:31,940
that participate in coalition.

1101
00:54:31,940 --> 00:54:35,510
So in my view, it will
be very important for NIH

1102
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:39,620
working group to somehow
facilitate coordination

1103
00:54:39,620 --> 00:54:45,320
of the effort to analyze data
that we have for these outcomes

1104
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:47,720
where our postdocs
are, because there

1105
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:52,500
is tremendous value in doing
it not only in aggregate,

1106
00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:56,520
what coalition is giving.

1107
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,230
But also it's very impressive
to look at the data

1108
00:55:00,230 --> 00:55:02,240
at the level of
different schools

1109
00:55:02,240 --> 00:55:03,890
or different departments.

1110
00:55:05,815 --> 00:55:07,190
ADRIANA MORALES
GOMEZ: Thank you.

1111
00:55:09,740 --> 00:55:11,090
JUDITH KIMBLE: OK.

1112
00:55:11,090 --> 00:55:13,940
I've been told that we only
have five minutes left,

1113
00:55:13,940 --> 00:55:16,400
and we're going to have
one more comment which

1114
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,680
will be an anonymous comment.

1115
00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,460
And my apologies to those of
you who didn't manage to get

1116
00:55:22,460 --> 00:55:23,960
called on.

1117
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:29,870
So the comment is, there
needs to be a K99 R00 award,

1118
00:55:29,870 --> 00:55:35,750
but for a transition from
postdoc to staff scientist.

1119
00:55:35,750 --> 00:55:38,870
In general, the K award year
limits, four to five years,

1120
00:55:38,870 --> 00:55:43,310
need to be extended, as these
limitations just hurt postdocs

1121
00:55:43,310 --> 00:55:47,060
rather than keep institutions
and mentors supervising

1122
00:55:47,060 --> 00:55:48,860
the postdocs accountable.

1123
00:55:48,860 --> 00:55:51,740
While these limits were
made with good intentions,

1124
00:55:51,740 --> 00:55:55,880
they haven't kept up with the
times required for publication,

1125
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:59,480
and have just caused
workarounds and loopholes, i.e.

1126
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:00,440
or e.g.

1127
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:04,260
title changes, but nothing else.

1128
00:56:04,260 --> 00:56:07,040
And so I think that that's
going to be the last one.

1129
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:11,255
And I'll turn it back
to Shelley and Tara.

1130
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:19,410
TARA SCHWETZ: Thanks
so much Judith.

1131
00:56:19,410 --> 00:56:21,340
And thanks to both
of you and Adriana

1132
00:56:21,340 --> 00:56:25,560
for facilitating that session.

1133
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,810
We have had a tremendous number
of comments and questions come

1134
00:56:30,810 --> 00:56:35,700
through the chat, I think
pushing upwards near 150.

1135
00:56:35,700 --> 00:56:40,150
Obviously, we didn't have time
to get to all of those today.

1136
00:56:40,150 --> 00:56:42,120
And so we are collecting them.

1137
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,040
And we'll go through
them, and make sure

1138
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:48,900
that they are considered and
discussed by the working group.

1139
00:56:48,900 --> 00:56:52,020
But I just want to
thank you all again

1140
00:56:52,020 --> 00:56:54,630
for your interest in
the topics, and really

1141
00:56:54,630 --> 00:56:56,850
grateful for
everyone who provided

1142
00:56:56,850 --> 00:56:59,040
input and your
perspective shared today.

1143
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:04,230
I think this has really
provided a lot of confirmation

1144
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:06,300
of some of the things
that we were aware of,

1145
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:10,200
or had heard through
other mechanisms.

1146
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,130
But also provided a lot
of really good ideas

1147
00:57:14,130 --> 00:57:17,460
and highlighted things
that maybe were not

1148
00:57:17,460 --> 00:57:21,090
so much at the top of our
list, or we were aware of.

1149
00:57:21,090 --> 00:57:24,900
I also just want to point
out one other thing that we

1150
00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:27,250
are recording today's session.

1151
00:57:27,250 --> 00:57:31,470
And so this session, as well
as accessible materials,

1152
00:57:31,470 --> 00:57:36,540
will be posted to the working
group website next week.

1153
00:57:36,540 --> 00:57:38,610
And also, there
are multiple ways

1154
00:57:38,610 --> 00:57:40,030
that you can engage with us.

1155
00:57:40,030 --> 00:57:41,640
We have a request
for information

1156
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,550
that is open through
April 14, and we

1157
00:57:44,550 --> 00:57:49,940
invite you to comment on these
issues, and that as well.

1158
00:57:49,940 --> 00:57:54,430
Now we have our next listening
session this Friday, March 10,

1159
00:57:54,430 --> 00:57:57,155
at 1:30 PM Eastern time.

1160
00:57:57,155 --> 00:57:59,530
It's going to be focused on
international postdoc trainee

1161
00:57:59,530 --> 00:58:00,890
concerns.

1162
00:58:00,890 --> 00:58:04,060
We also have additional
sessions on March 17 and 20

1163
00:58:04,060 --> 00:58:06,580
on compensation and
benefits which obviously

1164
00:58:06,580 --> 00:58:08,920
came up quite a bit
today, as well as

1165
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,400
job security, satisfaction,
and quality of life.

1166
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,600
So we look forward to continuing
to engage with the community

1167
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:21,100
through these different sessions
that we have, and the RFI.

1168
00:58:21,100 --> 00:58:24,605
And as help them to
inform our development

1169
00:58:24,605 --> 00:58:26,230
of the recommendations
that the working

1170
00:58:26,230 --> 00:58:28,520
group is going to be making.

1171
00:58:28,520 --> 00:58:30,995
So with that, Shelly, do you
want to have the final word?

1172
00:58:30,995 --> 00:58:31,870
SHELLEY BERGER: Yeah.

1173
00:58:31,870 --> 00:58:33,440
I just want to thank everyone.

1174
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:34,280
This was great.

1175
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,250
It was quite a great attendance.

1176
00:58:36,250 --> 00:58:41,110
We had almost 500 people,
and lots of great points,

1177
00:58:41,110 --> 00:58:42,190
as Tara points out.

1178
00:58:42,190 --> 00:58:46,000
And I also want to
reiterate what she said.

1179
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,170
So this will be posted.

1180
00:58:47,170 --> 00:58:50,830
Many people said they wanted to
listen to the speakers again.

1181
00:58:50,830 --> 00:58:54,670
And so I want to thank the
speakers for the great points

1182
00:58:54,670 --> 00:58:59,620
they made, and you can listen
to them again at your leisure,

1183
00:58:59,620 --> 00:59:01,610
and listen to the great points.

1184
00:59:01,610 --> 00:59:04,500
So thank you all, everybody.